Was Burke Involved? # 4

[BBB167893]

We obviously can't say what JB did or didn't do.

But what I can tell you is that children who do have sensory processing and dysfunction issues and resort to masturbating do not know the difference btw good touch and bad touch and will in fact continue with such behavior even when it is hurting them because they are being too aggressive with their own body.

Another example of not knowing their limits or feeling pain is when you see sensory seekers who bang their head against a wall or the floor and if you don't stop them or redirect it to something softer, they will continue even when they have given themself a rug burn and are bleeding.

I've heard of children like those. I just don't see it with this child.

 

[BBB167893]

Isn't it fact that the blow to the head was forensically proven to come before the strangulation? Can anyone verify this? TIA

Proven as much as it can be, Mandala. The only people who say otherwise never worked this case.

 

[Sparko96]

I am now to the point where I believe Burke definitely did it all. For years, many of us believed that Burke would eventually turn state's evidence against his parents. Now it is clear that his long silence was self-serving like everything he did. The fact that Burke stuck to the lame cover story all these years is a de facto confession. I am satisfied that we know the who and the why. Even the how. We know the crime scene/body was cleaned. All that remains are questions relative to how culpable the parents were in the abuse. We do know they allowed their son to be a dangerous predator. Moo.


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[BBB167893]

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that JR was and is a person who’s always thinking and tailoring his responses for best effect. I recall that was Prosecutor Kane’s take on JR as well. Anyway . . .

This was a commentary from Delmar England who was writing to DA ML regarding the Rs involvement in the crime. He may as well been telling his parakeet this theory; ML was an intruder theorist from way back.

What I understood England to be conveying is an emotional component to JR’s question which could indicate that he was bothered by the idea that she was killed by asphyxiation, not the head blow. That path may lead to Clemente’s expressed theory that the parents believed her deceased and fashioned a ligature/garrote-looking device to distance the crime from a nice Christian family. Or, as you point out, he may have been wanting to seem unbiased or was testing the waters to hear how Smit incorporates the head blow. Either way, it was a strange comment, and England believed it was important to JR to inquire about it.

One other thought not discussed much is the Rs’ hire of experts. You’ve heard how they hired their own lie detector experts and their own handwriting experts. What many folks don’t know is that they also hired their own pathologist* to testify just in case. I suspect it was primarily to counter some of the experts who believed the head blow was first, diminishing Smit’s garrote-toting pedophile who came in to torture and molest her, before bashing her head.

*This was a Georgia state pathologist known by LW, whose opinion was sought after in court cases. IOW, it appears as though he was a ‘pathologist for hire.’ Rotten luck for this guy though; he was caught using state time to provide court room opinions. He retired quite suddenly and was ordered to pay back the state for his time spent giving his opinion in court.

Great job, QFT. That was Sperry, was it not? All the names are starting to blur together for me.

 

[ThinkHard]

(bbm)I don't see at all how you arrived at that conclusion. Her hair being tied into the knot on the paintbrush means that it was tied while it was on her.

Just look at the knot! It's pretty obvious the paint brush wasn't tied on after the strangulation.....


That's not the knot being tied and the hair getting in it. That is clearly the hair getting twisted around the outside if the knot....meaning the knot had to be in place before the twisting and strangulation.

 

[ElleElle]

I wish someone would just create an animation video on how exactly this all took place.

My theory:
1. JBR pissed off BR, he ran after her, grabbed her by the collar, threw her down on the ground, smashed her on the side of the head with the flashlight, then poked her with train track.
2. Parents woke up; made a garrote; jabbed her with it in vagina, put in around her neck while her heart was barely beating.
3. Carried her down into the basement, got a blanket out of the dryer, covered her up.
4. Went back upstairs, wrote the ransom note.
5. Planned on removing the body and taking it with them to Atlanta to bury ...

Did not go as planned.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Just look at the knot! It's pretty obvious the paint brush wasn't tied on after the strangulation.....
View attachment 102296

That's not the knot being tied and the hair getting in it. That is clearly the hair getting twisted around the outside if the knot....meaning the knot had to be in place before the twisting and strangulation.

IIRC - the hair was tied INTO the knot- meaning it was tied on her neck. At autopsy her hair had to be cut for it to be removed. Her hair wasn't just wrapped around the outside of the knot. That's what you're seeing in the photo. I also believe there's mention of Patsy fibers being present.


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[Linda7NJ]

I wish someone would just create an animation video on how exactly this all took place.

My theory:
1. JBR pissed off BR, he ran after her, grabbed her by the collar, threw her down on the ground, smashed her on the side of the head with the flashlight, then poked her with train track.
2. Parents woke up; made a garrote; jabbed her with it in vagina, put in around her neck while her heart was barely beating.
3. Carried her down into the basement, got a blanket out of the dryer, covered her up.
4. Went back upstairs, wrote the ransom note.
5. Planned on removing the body and taking it with them to Atlanta to bury ...

Did not go as planned.

The "how exactly everything happened" is really irrelevant at this point. We know every single Ramsey played a part. We know this case will never be brought to trial. There will be no judicial justice for JonBenet, just the karma of living the rest of their days under that umbrella of suspicion- Patsy died under it and so will John & Burke.



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[otg]

Just look at the knot! It's pretty obvious the paint brush wasn't tied on after the strangulation.....

That's not the knot being tied and the hair getting in it. That is clearly the hair getting twisted around the outside if the knot....meaning the knot had to be in place before the twisting and strangulation.

Then do you think it was Dr. Meyer who twisted it around?

 

[jamesrav]

questfortrue,

JR: Well, I guess my impression is that it was in the basement. But that's just purely an assumption. We didn't hear a thing. I think if she had cried out or - you know, we would have heard that. I didn't know she had any head injury at all. It wasn't - I just didn't see....
LS: You had no knowledge?

.

If we take JR at his word, is it possible he and PR truly did not see / know about the head wound ? I've read here several times that it may have been "invisible" and on the CBS special I think the expert mentioned pretty much the same thing. So could they have found JBR 'dead' (unable to detect a pulse, certainly completely unconscious and un-reviveable) - realized what BR had done (erroneously thinking he might 'merely' have strangled her manually) , and realized they needed to make this a much more grotesque crime to fool the police? I can't see them 'finishing her off' if there was even a chance in a million she was still alive and could be saved with medical care. As much as I dislike BR, I don't see him as a psychopath who would do the garroting part. I think the parents erred in thinking she was dead and felt (in the heat of the moment) that the needed staging was irrelevant with respect to her survival, so why not do it. I will have to delve deeper and see if experts feel she could have potentially survived the head wound and recovered, or was in fact brain-dead. If the former, the Ramsey's must be beyond grief-stricken to know that. Lastly, if they knew he violently bashed her in the head, would they still have protected him? It seems like there's a limit to how much you'd cover for your child. Remember, after the staged 911 call Patsy probably says to BR "what did you do?" (perhaps rhetorically), but if they knew she was bashed in the head from a heavy object it seems especially silly to say that.

 

[vlprn71]

ThinkHard, I've liked and thanked many of your posts and I appreciate what you bring to the table, so it is truly with all due respect that I say this: it's not your place to suggest what people can and cannot post. If you'd like for your fellow posters to weigh your words as those of an expert, I strongly recommend you have your credentials verified. Until then, regardless of your experience, you're a poster here like the rest of us.

I respect your opinions but I do think you may be overestimating the likelihood of JBR being a chronic aggressive masturbator and understating the correlation between SBP and sexual abuse.

(Also, this may seem petty, but every time you misspell "masturbation" it undermines my confidence in your educated opinion on the subject. I've never seen anyone claim expertise in a subject they can't even spell.)

Thank you! I accidentally "thanked" his post. You are so right TheOtherChristina, the spelling mistakes are totally discrediting.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Thank you! I accidentally "thanked" his post. You are so right TheOtherChristina, the spelling mistakes are totally discrediting.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts. You're wrong.

Some of people the most brilliant people the world has ever known couldn't spell very well.

http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com/2012/01/24/15-famous-thinkers-who-couldnt-spell/

http://m.theweek.com/articles/462824/11-historical-figures-who-really-bad-spelling


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[Linda7NJ]

......

 

[Linda7NJ]

ThinkHard, I've liked and thanked many of your posts and I appreciate what you bring to the table, so it is truly with all due respect that I say this: it's not your place to suggest what people can and cannot post. If you'd like for your fellow posters to weigh your words as those of an expert, I strongly recommend you have your credentials verified. Until then, regardless of your experience, you're a poster here like the rest of us.

I respect your opinions but I do think you may be overestimating the likelihood of JBR being a chronic aggressive masturbator and understating the correlation between SBP and sexual abuse.

(Also, this may seem petty, but every time you misspell "masturbation" it undermines my confidence in your educated opinion on the subject. I've never seen anyone claim expertise in a subject they can't even spell.)

http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com/2012/01/24/15-famous-thinkers-who-couldnt-spell/

Really?



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[UKGuy]

If we take JR at his word, is it possible he and PR truly did not see / know about the head wound ? I've read here several times that it may have been "invisible" and on the CBS special I think the expert mentioned pretty much the same thing. So could they have found JBR 'dead' (unable to detect a pulse, certainly completely unconscious and un-reviveable) - realized what BR had done (erroneously thinking he might 'merely' have strangled her manually) , and realized they needed to make this a much more grotesque crime to fool the police? I can't see them 'finishing her off' if there was even a chance in a million she was still alive and could be saved with medical care. As much as I dislike BR, I don't see him as a psychopath who would do the garroting part. I think the parents erred in thinking she was dead and felt (in the heat of the moment) that the needed staging was irrelevant with respect to her survival, so why not do it. I will have to delve deeper and see if experts feel she could have potentially survived the head wound and recovered, or was in fact brain-dead. If the former, the Ramsey's must be beyond grief-stricken to know that. Lastly, if they knew he violently bashed her in the head, would they still have protected him? It seems like there's a limit to how much you'd cover for your child. Remember, after the staged 911 call Patsy probably says to BR "what did you do?" (perhaps rhetorically), but if they knew she was bashed in the head from a heavy object it seems especially silly to say that.

jamesrav,

what BR had done (erroneously thinking he might 'merely' have strangled her manually)

Yes, or simply used the cord loosely as a ligature whether tied to something else so to restrain JonBenet, or even play some auto-erotic game where there is intentional restriction of oxygen to the brain?

There are many subtle aspects to BDI, e.g. 911 call, head blow occurrence, etc, and whether there was manual strangulation is another.

I've always assumed there was, and I've reasoned like this: if the parents are ignorant regarding the head blow, then presented to them is JonBenet visibly asphyxiated via the ligature and paintbrush.

So why bother with any staging, why not just remove any incriminating evidence and relocate JonBenet to another location, leaving her more or less as is, including bloodstains but blame the intruder/kidnapper for it all?

As a working assumption I've always assumed that the ligature and paintbrush was pure staging contrived to mask manual strangulation, else why bother at all, also you run the risk of adding your own forensic evidence, also that the cord was used to restrain JonBenet, either as part of a game or as a prelude to violence?

People forget that its not the wine-cellar that's been staged its JonBenet herself. Stuff is being hidden so that the R's can evade justice, everything visible need not be by the hand of BR, even if as Kolar suggests one person did it all!

So to answer your question: yes the parents probably were ignorant regarding the head injury, which raises another subtle aspect, does this mean BR willfully lied to his parents, i.e. concocted some fanciful tale?

As further corroboration that the parents may have been ignorant, why not leave the flashlight in the wine-cellar, so to explain and mask her head injury sustained in her bedroom or somewhere else say by a lead pipe?

.
.

 

[vlprn71]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts. You're wrong.

Some of people the most brilliant people the world has ever known couldn't spell very well.

http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com/2012/01/24/15-famous-thinkers-who-couldnt-spell/

http://m.theweek.com/articles/462824/11-historical-figures-who-really-bad-spelling


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IMO, it's totally discrediting, TO ME. There, fixed it. I could care less what geniuses couldn't spell. To me, it's hard to take anyone serious when they can't spell a word/subject they claim to know so much about. But that's just me.[emoji6] Back to JBR.

 

[UKGuy]

Why Viewers Love True-Crime Shows

The 20th anniversary of the murder of 6-year-old JonBenét Ramsey inspired three shows last month: A&E’s The Killing of JonBenét: The Truth Uncovered, ID’s JonBenét: An American Murder Mystery and CBS’s The Case Of: JonBenét Ramsey. All were successes for their networks, with ratings ranging from 2.2 to 10.4 million viewers.

“That all three of these shows were hits attests to the fact that there is an insatiable interest in this genre,” says Elaine Frontain Bryant, A&E’s programming chief.

And there’s no end in sight for TV’s real-life crime obsession. On September 30, Netflix premieres Amanda Knox, a documentary about the American college student

Indeed, CBS’s Ramsey show came about, says producer Tom Forman, “when we were approached by former FBI profiler [and child sex crime expert] Jim Clemente, who wanted to find justice for the child after so many years.” This allure is no surprise to Drexel University

.

 

[ThinkHard]

(bbm)I don't see at all how you arrived at that conclusion. Her hair being tied into the knot on the paintbrush means that it was tied while it was on her.

They hair is around the OUTSIDE of the knot, not inside the knot. Hair doesn't magically appear around the outside of a knot if the knot was tied after the twisting. Just look at the picture? How does the hair get around the outside of the knot if the knot as tied after? Clearly this knot would have had to be in place before that hair twisted around it.

 

[ThinkHard]

IIRC - the hair was tied INTO the knot- meaning it was tied on her neck. At autopsy her hair had to be cut for it to be removed. Her hair wasn't just wrapped around the outside of the knot. That's what you're seeing in the photo. I also believe there's mention of Patsy fibers being present.


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When you have a knot like that and you twist it around even after the knot has been tied you can still get hair caught in it. Trust me! I have had hair get twisted in pretied line while sailing plenty, which is what this looks like to me.

There is no way that knot was tied after the strangulation, absolutely no way in my head that's even remotely possible.

i feel like everyone else must be looking at a completely different photo then me even though I know we are looking at the same one. Because those facts just seem blatantly obvious looking at that photo; That knot was tied BEFORE it came into contact with JBR's hair.

I've been sailing and knot tying since I was younger then Burke, and in my opinion looking at that photo, it is very very clear the knot was tied prior to, not post strangulation.

 

[ThinkHard]

Then do you think it was Dr. Meyer who twisted it around?

No I think the knot was on that paint brush long before the strangulation, and I think when she was being strangled and it was twisted her hair was caught up in but mostly twisted around the outside of the knot. It is possible to get hair twisted into a knot, especially one done with nylon material that slides easier. Her hair being stuck inside parts of the knot, does not mean the knot was tied around her hair. If that were the case you would have seen more hair in the knot and imbedded deeper in the knot, as in btw the line and the paintbrush, instead of just btw two pieces if line.