Was Burke Involved? # 4

[BBB167893]

The Ramseys were just a few years away from blaming terrorists. Imagine that rabbit hole!


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That's essentially what they DID do, Sparko96!

Follow me on this: that whole "beheading" jazz was meant to suggest Islamic terror. Even before 9/11 it was common knowledge that they behead people in places like Saudi Arabia. I just don't think they knew how to spell any of those names. Is it Hezbollah or Hizb'ullah? is it Osama bin Laden or Usama bnin Laden? Is it Khaddafy, or Qaddafi? See what I'm getting at?

But I think you've hit on something I don't think gets enough attention, Sparko96: the RL seems to be an attempt to play on popular fears, both of kidnappers and terrorists. And that's not new, is it? Susan Smith blamed a black man in the South (It's only a miracle she confessed before some innocent black man got his head broken). Charles Stuart blamed a black man. Darlie Routier blamed a home invader. OJ Simpson blamed South American drug cartel assassins, a la Scarface. See the pattern? All guilty people.

 

[TexMex]

Does it occur to anyone that John did not want to go along with that note, and only did so because there was no time to make another and/or no way to dispose of the first one? Beggars can't be choosers. I'm just asking. You make a good case about PR, mrseeker.

I think that's the case. They were expected at the airport at 7am. They just ran out of time. The CBS experiment showed it took 20-25 minutes just to copy the note. Longer to think of the wording for it so they guessed 45 minutes.
Was it a stupid note? Yep. But I can only imagine the panic, grief and stress they were under once they found her then made the decision to cover this up. They made a plan, carried out the staging, wrote a note, got their stories straight, told Burke all he had to do was say he came home then went to bed. You heard nothing, saw no one. You will move on with your life. They called 911 a few minutes before 6 and sent Burke up to bed. There was no turning back. They would all have to stick to the story for the rest of their lives. And they have.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

That's essentially what they DID do, Sparko96!

Follow me on this: that whole "beheading" jazz was meant to suggest Islamic terror. Even before 9/11 it was common knowledge that they behead people in places like Saudi Arabia. I just don't think they knew how to spell any of those names. Is it Hezbollah or Hizb'ullah? is it Osama bin Laden or Usama bnin Laden? Is it Khaddafy, or Qaddafi? See what I'm getting at?

But I think you've hit on something I don't think gets enough attention, Sparko96: the RL seems to be an attempt to play on popular fears, both of kidnappers and terrorists. And that's not new, is it? Susan Smith blamed a black man in the South (It's only a miracle she confessed before some innocent black man got his head broken). Charles Stuart blamed a black man. Darlie Routier blamed a home invader. OJ Simpson blamed South American drug cartel assassins, a la Scarface. See the pattern? All guilty people.

Good post. I get it. Foreign faction, beheading, etc.

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[BBB167893]

I think that's the case. They were expected at the airport at 7am. They just ran out of time. The CBS experiment showed it took 20-25 minutes just to copy the note. Longer to think of the wording for it so they guessed 45 minutes.

Maybe longer than that. Don't forget: Patsy had to make at least an attempt at disguising her writing. I figure more like 1-1/2 hours. Don't ask me why I go for that exact number; it's just a hunch.

Was it a stupid note? Yep. But I can only imagine the panic, grief and stress they were under once they found her then made the decision to cover this up.

You're talking my language, TexMex. We can't expect these people to have been thinking in a perfectly clear manner.

They made a plan, carried out the staging, wrote a note, got their stories straight, told Burke all he had to do was say he came home then went to bed. You heard nothing, saw no one. You will move on with your life. They called 911 a few minutes before 6 and sent Burke up to bed. There was no turning back. They would all have to stick to the story for the rest of their lives. And they have.

Exactly. Committing murder together isn't like riding a bus where you can get off at different stops. You gotta ride right to the end, and the last stop is the cemetery.

 

[Heymom]

Maybe longer than that. Don't forget: Patsy had to make at least an attempt at disguising her writing. I figure more like 1-1/2 hours. Don't ask me why I go for that exact number; it's just a hunch.



You're talking my language, TexMex. We can't expect these people to have been thinking in a perfectly clear manner.



Exactly. Committing murder together isn't like riding a bus where you can get off at different stops. You gotta ride right to the end, and the last stop is the cemetery.

The family that slays together, stays together?

 

[Ambitioned]

The family that slays together, stays together?

Inb4 new book title.

 

[johnjay]

Exactly! That's the point. It couldn't function the way it was made to appear. The17" length was longer than her hair once it was entwined into the paintbrush knot.

But even though it couldn't function in pull mode, it could still function in twist mode. And perhaps, as I believe someone already suggested here, the hair was pushed between the handle end cords rather than being tied into it - which wouldn't happen if the cord was used in pull mode. But, I can see how one could come to the conclusion that the way the cord ended up was not how it was originally used - how it was used is not obvious.

 

[ThinkHard]

I'm afraid I just can't explain it any better. And I don't mind trying to explain myself, but at the same time I don't want to derail the thread with these back and forths.

You described characteristics one could identify in an enforcing sadist by saying that you "believe he acted out on his sister as a way to excerpt power and control over her."
Enforcing sadist tend to do that. They go out of their way to enforce the harshest punishment to rule breakers (stole a piece of pineapple?) within their authoritarian domain (older brother vs younger sister), and exercise the worst punishments they can dish out.

Respectfully that is your interpretation of what I said, it is never what I thought or meant. Which to me feels like you are twisting my words. I kindly request that while you move forward with your theory or reasoning you leave me out of it, as I don't really appreciate my words being twisted around like that. Please and thank you.

 

[ThinkHard]

Exactly! That's the point. It couldn't function the way it was made to appear. The17" length was longer than her hair once it was entwined into the paintbrush knot.

If it was so much longer then her length of hair....then how would tying the paintbrush on after have been able to get her hair caught in it? If there was plenty of length her hair should have been close enough to be caught in that knot as it was being tied.

Which is another reason I think the paint brush was there when the line was used on her to strangulate her. I think it was used in a twisting manner.

I think one of the hang ups here, is not having a clear idea onhow the device was in fact used, so whatever assumptions one has about how it was used, clouds judgements on how they think it could have happened in regards to the tangling of her hair.

 

[johnjay]

I think the 'cording' is simply 2 shoelaces. Both pieces measure 21 inches in length.

Well that's interesting.

 

[ThinkHard]

I think the 'cording' is simply 2 shoelaces. Both pieces measure 21 inches in length.

I doubt it, they don't look like shoelaces, plus I think it would be obvious if they were shoe laces, as they'd have those plastic bits at the end of the cording.

 

[johnjay]

If it was so much longer then her length of hair....then how would tying the paintbrush on after have been able to get her hair caught in it? If there was plenty of length her hair should have been close enough to be caught in that knot as it was being tied.

Which is another reason I think the paint brush was there when the line was used on her to strangulate her. I think it was used in a twisting manner.

I think one of the hang ups here, is not having a clear idea onhow the device was in fact used, so whatever assumptions one has about how it was used, clouds judgements on how they think it could have happened in regards to the tangling of her hair.

Yes, how it was used is key to understanding what went on. It's disappointing that CBS didn't explain this very mysterious part of what happened.

For it to be used in a twisting manner, I think the line would have to be doubled around her neck and then looped over the handle. That would work, but it might leave a double mark on her. I'm going to have to try some more experiments.

 

[ThinkHard]

I'd like to answer the second question first. The evidence shows that JonBenet was alive when she was strangled, but only in the most technical sense, ie, barely alive.

As to the first question, yes, I think they did all of that. As to how it was done, I used to think that Patsy did the strangulation, with John telling her, "this is your mess, you clean it up." I'm not so sure of that anymore. I thought that because they were her fibers there, but that just shows she handled those items, not that she used them. Also, you'd figure she did that immediately, which would not account for everything else.

Here's an idea, and I'd like everyone's thoughts on it: PR handled the items; cord, tape, etc. Maybe she even placed the cord around JB's neck, but did nothing with it, thinking that might be enough. If at that point, JR sent her upstairs to write, he would have JB all to himself to do what "needed" doing, sparing Patsy the sight of it. Now, if JB was on her back when Patsy left, she'd be in that position for the paintstick to be jabbed. (JonBenet, please forgive me for doing this.) I think that's when his fibers got into her panties. Then, knowing the cord would not fool anyone as found, he proceeded to actually strangle her, which is the only way to make it look like she was strangled. He had flipped her onto her stomach to do that. Then he'd have to flip her again, because she was on her back when found, and apply the tape (if it wasn't on already, and I don't think it was) and wrist ties.

Thus, since Patsy hadn't seen the cord embedded in JB's neck, she would have been horrified when the body was brought up, even if she was acting it up, laying it on thick.

But, I'm still not completely satisfied that it went down exactly that way. A few problems: one, if Patsy didn't know about the strangulation until the body was brought up, I'm not sure she'd be able to keep acting through that. Two, if John did apply the wrist ties, he, of the two, would know how phony it looked, and would have tied them tighter. But I'm not ever sure about that, because that idea might not have occurred to him until later, thus the story about trying to undo them.

Oh, BROTHER. The more I try to figure this, the more I get twisted up. Life was a LOT easier for me when I was IDI and could just handwave everything away by saying, "well, this person was a psychopath."

What makes me doubt this scenario is that JR is the one who brought her upstairs and took the tape off her mouth. If he had been the one staging those elements, why not let the police find her the way she was, why would he remove staging he himself put on?of he staged it for affect, and if he really thought his daughter had been killed by strangers I seriously doubt he would have behaved in that manner.

In my mind he behaved like a man who had just found his daughter and saw the state she was in for the first time, but who also wasn't in fear of a foreign fraction because he knew by that point his son was responsible....he just didn't know what he had done to her until he actually saw the body.

 

[johnjay]

I doubt it, they don't look like shoelaces, plus I think it would be obvious if they were shoe laces, as they'd have those plastic bits at the end of the cording.

What kind of cord do you think it was? Can you show us a link?

Patsy said JBR got a lot of craft kits for Christmas, could it be something from one of those? Could she have tied it around her own neck in imitation of the American Girl doll?

 

[ThinkHard]

I think any BDI scenario that only accounts for BR hitting her with the flashlight, or other object if the flashlight is wrong, has the problem of needing to explain why they thought they needed a cover story at all (since there was no obvious outer trauma), unless BR told them what he did or they saw it happen. Or if they did need a cover story why couldn't it have been playing it off as an accident? That seems like it would have a higher probability of success than staging a death scene complete with mutilating the body, let alone 'finishing her off', and then trying to make it out to be a kidnapping gone wrong.

I think it would have to be BR taking that option away and turning it into something more desperate for the coverup.

As for planning to move the body from the house... I can't see that being a part of the plan. Certainly not after it was discussed because I think with any two people bouncing ideas off each other that would quickly be ruled out. So by the time the 911 call was made I have my doubts anyone was planning to somehow move the body out of the house. Personally, I think they thought the police would find the body much sooner and therefore think the kidnapper killed JBR because the parents didn't follow directions. Which would then mean there wouldn't be a call from the kidnapper for everyone to be waiting on. Of course truthfully, if an IDI then there'd be no call as well since they'd already know they'd killed her. But that leaves the problem of the parents not really reacting as the time expired with no call. Which at this point would mean the plan was falling apart which could explain JR's reported agitation.

Then you go back to the RN.... What about the RN would make someone think this was a sex crime? IOW, why stage a sexual abuse scene for that ransom note you've created?

I'm still left thinking the parents cleaned her up to hide any SA from BR. I'm thinking strangulation was him. I think he left a horrific scene that ruled out them being able to claim accident. Or even sibling argument gone wrong.

And if one of the parents would've done it then I don't think the other would've rallied around him/her to protect them. It only makes sense to me that the two of them would circle the wagons to protect a common interest: their son.

So if it's not BR then it must be an intruder. But too much makes no sense for an intruder.

I think the one point that 100% says there was a cover up here, by any one or a combo of all, is that she WAS cleaned up!

Why would a stranger wipe off her legs and put knew undies on her?

To me it doesn't sound like anyone was trying to hide previous abuse, because if that was your purpose...why clean up after.

It seems to me that the person either wasn't aware of previous abuse or didn't know that was something that could be identified by an ME on an autopsy. (Perhaps like a child who overheard a Dr tell his mother that JBR had no signs of sexual abuse).

To me it appears the motive of cleaning her up, had to be an attempt to hide sexual abuse that had been done to her that night, which negates only doing the sexual abuse that night to cover for prior sexual abuse....at least that's the way it looks to me.

Hope that made sense. It was kind of difficult to explain, so I hope it's not too confusing.

 

[ThinkHard]

That's essentially what they DID do, Sparko96!

Follow me on this: that whole "beheading" jazz was meant to suggest Islamic terror. Even before 9/11 it was common knowledge that they behead people in places like Saudi Arabia. I just don't think they knew how to spell any of those names. Is it Hezbollah or Hizb'ullah? is it Osama bin Laden or Usama bnin Laden? Is it Khaddafy, or Qaddafi? See what I'm getting at?

But I think you've hit on something I don't think gets enough attention, Sparko96: the RL seems to be an attempt to play on popular fears, both of kidnappers and terrorists. And that's not new, is it? Susan Smith blamed a black man in the South (It's only a miracle she confessed before some innocent black man got his head broken). Charles Stuart blamed a black man. Darlie Routier blamed a home invader. OJ Simpson blamed South American drug cartel assassins, a la Scarface. See the pattern? All guilty people.

Yup. And the bit about; we respect your business but not your country....

 

[ThinkHard]

Yes, how it was used is key to understanding what went on. It's disappointing that CBS didn't explain this very mysterious part of what happened.

For it to be used in a twisting manner, I think the line would have to be doubled around her neck and then looped over the handle. That would work, but it might leave a double mark on her. I'm going to have to try some more experiments.

I was going to try some experiments too, but I have an idea of what I think the cord is, so I want to go buy it and carry it out with that...hopefully I'll get to it in the next few days...

 

[ThinkHard]

What kind of cord do you think it was? Can you show us a link?

Patsy said JBR got a lot of craft kits for Christmas, could it be something from one of those? Could she have tied it around her own neck in imitation of the American Girl doll?

Yes I think it could be the inner cords of nylon line used in rock climbing and sailing. It's possible to pull one of these cords out without disrupting the rest of the line much. (This is part of the experiment I want to play with.)

It looks like this:

 

[rojamom]

I think any BDI scenario that only accounts for BR hitting her with the flashlight, or other object if the flashlight is wrong, has the problem of needing to explain why they thought they needed a cover story at all (since there was no obvious outer trauma), unless BR told them what he did or they saw it happen. Or if they did need a cover story why couldn't it have been playing it off as an accident? That seems like it would have a higher probability of success than staging a death scene complete with mutilating the body, let alone 'finishing her off', and then trying to make it out to be a kidnapping gone wrong.

I think it would have to be BR taking that option away and turning it into something more desperate for the coverup.

As for planning to move the body from the house... I can't see that being a part of the plan. Certainly not after it was discussed because I think with any two people bouncing ideas off each other that would quickly be ruled out. So by the time the 911 call was made I have my doubts anyone was planning to somehow move the body out of the house. Personally, I think they thought the police would find the body much sooner and therefore think the kidnapper killed JBR because the parents didn't follow directions. Which would then mean there wouldn't be a call from the kidnapper for everyone to be waiting on. Of course truthfully, if an IDI then there'd be no call as well since they'd already know they'd killed her. But that leaves the problem of the parents not really reacting as the time expired with no call. Which at this point would mean the plan was falling apart which could explain JR's reported agitation.

Then you go back to the RN.... What about the RN would make someone think this was a sex crime? IOW, why stage a sexual abuse scene for that ransom note you've created?

I'm still left thinking the parents cleaned her up to hide any SA from BR. I'm thinking strangulation was him. I think he left a horrific scene that ruled out them being able to claim accident. Or even sibling argument gone wrong.

And if one of the parents would've done it then I don't think the other would've rallied around him/her to protect them. It only makes sense to me that the two of them would circle the wagons to protect a common interest: their son.

So if it's not BR then it must be an intruder. But too much makes no sense for an intruder.

akh, I totally agree with you. As you point out, if BR was only responsible for the head wound, then it doesn't make sense to me that the parents would cover this up with such an elaborate "kidnapping by a crazed sicko gone wrong" scheme. It is much more plausible that they would have immediately called 911. And remember, the head wound wasn't immediately apparent to anyone -- even the coroner didn't know about it until the autopsy was conducted and they found the horrible skull fracture. So unless the parents actually witnessed BR hitting JBR over the head, they wouldn't even know this wound was there.

What makes more sense to me is exactly what akh theorizes -- I think BR not only hit her over the head, but also strangled her. As akh points out, this would remove any option that the parents could claim an accident had occurred. I also agree with akh on the ransom note -- I think both parents thought JBR's body would be found much sooner by the police. I think PR peering through her fingers at officer French is indicative of that as well -- I think she was just waiting for him to "hurry up and go to the basement and find her already!!" in her mind. I also think BR is the one who caused the vaginal injury to JBR that night. We know that injury caused some bleeding, so this would have taken place prior to the strangulation (when her heart stopped beating).

So I think the chain of events was:

1. During an argument/squabble, BR grabs JBR's shirt collar, twists it in an attempt to gain control of her as she is running away (which caused some of the neck injuries), and then grabs the flashlight and bashes her in the head.


2. The head blow caused JBR to fall unconscious to the floor immediately.


3. BR is now in "oh *****" mode -- realizing that he has seriously injured his sister. He wants to hide what he did -- but he's also a kid, so he's not going to be terribly sophisticated in this effort. It probably never occurred to him to just tell parents that JBR slipped and fell or some other lie. So he drags her downstairs (pulling by her arms over her head) and into the basement. This is how JBR gets the shoulder bruising and leg injuries.


4. We know that between 45 minutes to 2 hours passes between the head blow and the strangulation. Dragging JBR's body downstairs and into the basement would take some time and some effort for nearly 10-year old BR. Now that he's got her in the basement, he wants to see if he can revive her somehow. So he pokes her hard with the train tracks several times to try to wake her up. This is the cause of those injuries to the body.


5. When poking her doesn’t work, he becomes even more aggressive – either digitally penetrating her or using some other object. I believe BR was a deeply, DEEPLY disturbed adolescent already (scatological behaviors, deep-seated rage/jealousy) and I also believe it likely that he had already “experimented” a bit with this sexually abusive behavior toward JBR in the preceding months, but not to this extent.

6. Either in a final act of rage or perhaps because he detected *some* signs of life still (death rattle breathing or something similar), he decides he must finish her off or she will “tell.” So he fashions the garrote and strangles her. (The deeply imbedded cord in JBR’s neck suggests such rage to me – I don’t believe either JR or PR would have been capable of doing this to their daughter – not even to save BR).

7. At this point I think BR tries to creep back upstairs and go to bed but PR hears a noise (she’s still awake packing upstairs) and goes to check on the kids, only to find JBR gone. Or, maybe BR decides to tell PR a lie that he “thought he heard something,” hoping that his mom will believe a bad guy broke into the house and did this to JBR. But however it played out, I think *this* is when PR became frantic and was rushing about the house “acting psycho” saying “Where’s my baby? Where’s my baby?” (Fellow Websleuther JohnJay originally came up with this explanation, and I think he’s right about this.)

8. So by the time PR and JR discover JBR in the basement, she has been strangled, obviously murdered, is already dead, and there’s *no way* to pass this off as an accident. And they know who did it. And they have to cover it up. So now the staging begins. (Cleaning the body, wiping off fingerprints, writing the ransom note, turning JBR over on her back to place the tape and the too-loose wrist ties, etc.)

9. I don’t think removing the body was ever even considered by either JR or PR. I think they wanted the cops to find the body early in the morning, conclude it was kidnapping gone wrong, and then the family could get on with their grief and dealing privately with BR. But when the cops DIDN’T find her right away, and the hours ticked away, that gave JR more and more time to think about all the things they might have missed. All the ways that the staging might have left “clues” behind. So when he has the chance to “search the house from top to bottom,” he jumps at it – making sure Fleet is with him when the body is “discovererd,” but also making sure to contaminate evidence by removing the tape, removing the wrist tie, touching/moving the body, and laying the body on the floor.

 

[TexMex]

What makes me doubt this scenario is that JR is the one who brought her upstairs and took the tape off her mouth. If he had been the one staging those elements, why not let the police find her the way she was, why would he remove staging he himself put on?of he staged it for affect, and if he really thought his daughter had been killed by strangers I seriously doubt he would have behaved in that manner.

In my mind he behaved like a man who had just found his daughter and saw the state she was in for the first time, but who also wasn't in fear of a foreign fraction because he knew by that point his son was responsible....he just didn't know what he had done to her until he actually saw the body.

IMO they expected the body to be discovered right after the police arrived. However the initial cop didn't open the wine room door. The detectives didn't look because the first policeman told them he'd searched the home. The plan had to change. So now they are stuck sitting around with the body until Det. Arndt asks Ramsey to look all over the house for anything out of place. John also has a witness, White, to back up him "discovering" the body. Ramsey played the part of being surprised. IMO that included reacting as if he was rushing her upstairs towards "help"...an ambulance...cpr...etc. If BPD wasn't going to do their "part" and discover the body, he'd bring the body to them himself.
JMO