Was Burke Involved? # 4

[wannagonorth]

I think any BDI scenario that only accounts for BR hitting her with the flashlight, or other object if the flashlight is wrong, has the problem of needing to explain why they thought they needed a cover story at all (since there was no obvious outer trauma), unless BR told them what he did or they saw it happen. Or if they did need a cover story why couldn't it have been playing it off as an accident? That seems like it would have a higher probability of success than staging a death scene complete with mutilating the body, let alone 'finishing her off', and then trying to make it out to be a kidnapping gone wrong.

I think it would have to be BR taking that option away and turning it into something more desperate for the coverup.

As for planning to move the body from the house... I can't see that being a part of the plan. Certainly not after it was discussed because I think with any two people bouncing ideas off each other that would quickly be ruled out. So by the time the 911 call was made I have my doubts anyone was planning to somehow move the body out of the house. Personally, I think they thought the police would find the body much sooner and therefore think the kidnapper killed JBR because the parents didn't follow directions. Which would then mean there wouldn't be a call from the kidnapper for everyone to be waiting on. Of course truthfully, if an IDI then there'd be no call as well since they'd already know they'd killed her. But that leaves the problem of the parents not really reacting as the time expired with no call. Which at this point would mean the plan was falling apart which could explain JR's reported agitation.

Then you go back to the RN.... What about the RN would make someone think this was a sex crime? IOW, why stage a sexual abuse scene for that ransom note you've created?

I'm still left thinking the parents cleaned her up to hide any SA from BR. I'm thinking strangulation was him. I think he left a horrific scene that ruled out them being able to claim accident. Or even sibling argument gone wrong.

And if one of the parents would've done it then I don't think the other would've rallied around him/her to protect them. It only makes sense to me that the two of them would circle the wagons to protect a common interest: their son.

So if it's not BR then it must be an intruder. But too much makes no sense for an intruder.

All of this makes perfect sense to me, except the second part of this "I think they thought the police would find the body much sooner and therefore think the kidnapper killed JBR because the parents didn't follow directions." If the kidnapper killed JonBenet because the parents didn't follow directions, that would mean the kidnapper was still in the house after the ransom note (with the directions) was found. I don't believe anybody thought that or would believe it. The rest of what you said I totally agree with though, including the idea that Ramseys wanted the body to be found so everyone would stop waiting for a phone call. That could explain John's rising agitation described by (I think) Linda Arndt.

 

[ThinkHard]

IMO they expected the body to be discovered right after the police arrived. However the initial cop didn't open the wine room door. The detectives didn't look because the first policeman told them he'd searched the home. The plan had to change. So now they are stuck sitting around with the body until Det. Arndt asks Ramsey to look all over the house for anything out of place. John also has a witness, White, to back up him "discovering" the body. Ramsey played the part of being surprised. IMO that included reacting as if he was rushing her upstairs towards "help"...an ambulance...cpr...etc. If BPD wasn't going to do their "part" and discover the body, he'd bring the body to them himself.
JMO

I think if he did that staging he wouldn't have brought the body up, even if the PD missed it the first time. I think he'd be more inclined to shout up to LE not just grab the body and carry it up himself, uttering the words "he didn't mean to kill her" . In my opinion he reacted as someone genuinely surprised at finding his daughter in that state. I think by the time the cops were involved he knew Burke had done something, but I think finding the body was a genuine surprised reaction. Jmo

 

[johnjay]

Yes I think it could be the inner cords of nylon line used in rock climbing and sailing. It's possible to pull one of these cords out without disrupting the rest of the line much. (This is part of the experiment I want to play with.)

It looks like this:

That's interesting.

Do you understand how the cord was tied onto the paint brush handle? It's not clear to me how that was done.

I'm also confused about the dimensions of the cord. Is the total cord length when it is completely unwrapped and just measured known? I've seen 17" from the slip knot but does that include the cord that is wrapped around the stick? What is the length of cord from the knot on the noose part to the knot on the stick?

 

[ThinkHard]

That's interesting.

Do you understand how the cord was tied onto the paint brush handle? It's not clear to me how that was done.

I'm also confused about the dimensions of the cord. Is the total cord length when it is completely unwrapped and just measured known? I've seen 17" from the slip knot but does that include the cord that is wrapped around the stick? What is the length of cord from the knot on the noose part to the knot on the stick?

It looks like it's just wrapped several times around the wood and then secured with a clove hitch.

I want to buy line and try to recreated it pulling out one if the inner pieces and tying it to the paintbrush.

Regarding dimensions I believe someone posted that yesterday and it was in the autopsy report.

 

[chlban]

What makes me doubt this scenario is that JR is the one who brought her upstairs and took the tape off her mouth. If he had been the one staging those elements, why not let the police find her the way she was, why would he remove staging he himself put on?of he staged it for affect, and if he really thought his daughter had been killed by strangers I seriously doubt he would have behaved in that manner.

In my mind he behaved like a man who had just found his daughter and saw the state she was in for the first time, but who also wasn't in fear of a foreign fraction because he knew by that point his son was responsible....he just didn't know what he had done to her until he actually saw the body.

I agree that John acted like a man who had just found his daughter. But, you indicate he knew at that point that BDI. When do you think he became aware of that?

It seems to me that if he knew BDI before the police arrived, he would have insisted on seeing her. It doesn't seem like something any parent would, or could, believe without seeing for himself.

 

[Heymom]

I think if he did that staging he wouldn't have brought the body up, even if the PD missed it the first time. I think he'd be more inclined to shout up to LE not just grab the body and carry it up himself, uttering the words "he didn't mean to kill her" . In my opinion he reacted as someone genuinely surprised at finding his daughter in that state. I think by the time the cops were involved he knew Burke had done something, but I think finding the body was a genuine surprised reaction. Jmo

He was probably thinking by that time, "Our goose is cooked," and remembering something he had forgotten to do, or worrying about the possible fibers, traces, fingerprints etc. What better way to muddy the waters of the investigation than to make sure his fibers were around somewhere near or on JonBenet than to pick her up, contaminate the scene, and bring her upstairs where Patsy could then go into her "Lazarus" act and also ensure HER fibers were on JonBenet. I think that is the reason Patsy did not change her clothing - specifically so that those same fibers could be explained away by her acting later. If this case had ever gone to trial, you'd have seen the lawyers arguing that whatever evidence was found on the body, it was accidentally left there by both parents contact with the body after it was "found."

 

[akh]

So I think the chain of events was:

1. During an argument/squabble, BR grabs JBR's shirt collar, twists it in an attempt to gain control of her as she is running away (which caused some of the neck injuries), and then grabs the flashlight and bashes her in the head.


2. The head blow caused JBR to fall unconscious to the floor immediately.
.

All very plausible IMHO and it all fits. I'm right there with you on your thinking.
The one thing the CBS show did was push the idea there was an argument over her taking a piece of pineapple from him. Which could be true but so could about 1000 other things so I don't know why they pushed that so much and I don't recall any caveats. Maybe they know he was extremely bothered by anyone touching his food so they pieced it together that an unfinished bowl of pineapple and her with a small amount of pineapple in her system could be explained by her touching his food. Now he could no longer eat it, explaining the unfinished bowl. But if that is the case, they never really mentioned these type of issues (that I recall).
And of course something like this could simply be the straw that broke the camel's back. I get the vibe in those early interviews that her being gone really wasn't a problem for him. So he could've been thinking about things like that knife stab he demonstrated or that hit on the head for some time. And for whatever reason, the moment arrived on that fateful night.

I think it's even possible he'd already made the 'garrote' and was planning this. I've opined elsewhere that maybe the garrote did come first and she struggled more than he expected so he hit her with the flashlight (or some other object) to make her quit struggling. At which point she falls unconscious/dying and he goes about being curious and creepy creating the SA aspects of the case, and at some point finishes the job with the garrote if need be or for certainty (if it happened a 2nd time at all) and the poking with the train tracks.

But mainly my point in my thinking is, even if the medical experts want to debate the order of the headblow and the garrote, I think it could still be explained either way. As long as it was him doing it all versus thinking about the garrote as a piece of the coverup then it still would allow the pieces to fit and not require the family to abuse the corpse of their daughter or even 'finish her off' versus calling for 911 for help.

 

[ThinkHard]

I agree that John acted like a man who had just found his daughter. But, you indicate he knew at that point that BDI. When do you think he became aware of that?

It seems to me that if he knew BDI before the police arrived, he would have insisted on seeing her. It doesn't seem like something any parent would, or could, believe without seeing for himself.

My guess, is that it all unfolded very quickly. If you believe what was apparent,y said late on those 911 tapes .... and JR did say, "we aren't speaking to you" it would make sense. I think sometime btw John becoming aware of the ransom note and hanging up with the cops, JR began putting it together in his head, but I don't think he necessarily new who was responsible for what at that time, or what exactly had been done. I think the story was unfolding to him as the police were arriving etc.

Just my theory of course.

 

[ThinkHard]

He was probably thinking by that time, "Our goose is cooked," and remembering something he had forgotten to do, or worrying about the possible fibers, traces, fingerprints etc. What better way to muddy the waters of the investigation than to make sure his fibers were around somewhere near or on JonBenet than to pick her up, contaminate the scene, and bring her upstairs where Patsy could then go into her "Lazarus" act and also ensure HER fibers were on JonBenet. I think that is the reason Patsy did not change her clothing - specifically so that those same fibers could be explained away by her acting later. If this case had ever gone to trial, you'd have seen the lawyers arguing that whatever evidence was found on the body, it was accidentally left there by both parents contact with the body after it was "found."

I definetly agree that is one possibility, and a string one. I'm just not sure it's the only possibility either. The part that gets me, is that if both parents were fully invested into the line they needed to learn to play out the rest of their lives from that pint on...why would JR mutter what he did under his breath at that time.

That piece gives me pause to consider that perhaps this was all unfolding out top of each other. That perhaps the reasons the parents didn't speak up yet is because they hadn't even gotten full answers from each other at that point. It possible that when they put it all together and spoke with a lawyer, the advise was to focus on maintains reasonable doubt.

Not argue, just exploring the different possibilities.

 

[rojamom]

All very plausible IMHO and it all fits. I'm right there with you on your thinking.
The one thing the CBS show did was push the idea there was an argument over her taking a piece of pineapple from him. Which could be true but so could about 1000 other things so I don't know why they pushed that so much and I don't recall any caveats. Maybe they know he was extremely bothered by anyone touching his food so they pieced it together that an unfinished bowl of pineapple and her with a small amount of pineapple in her system could be explained by her touching his food. Now he could no longer eat it, explaining the unfinished bowl. But if that is the case, they never really mentioned these type of issues (that I recall).
.

Yes, akh - there is some evidence that BR had issues about others touching his food. Although it was not mentioned in the CBS program, in Kolar's book (and I believe Thomas's book as well) an incident is described during one of BR's taped interviews (I don't remember if this was the interview soon after JBR's death or the later one when BR was 11). Here's what Kolar says about the incident (this is from page 349 of Foreign Faction):

"On another occasion, Dr. Bernhard had mistakenly taken a sip from Burke's soda can. He seeed to bristle at the instrusion of his personal space/property and indicated that he couldn't drink fro the can anymore."

From other taped interviews with BR, we know that pineapple was a favorite snack of both BR and JBR. We also know that JBR ingested pineapple within a few hours of her death, and we know, of course, about the bowl of pineapple with BR's fingerprints found on the kitchen table that PR claimed no knowledge of.

So I think all of these elements combined are what have led a number of investigators to theorize that it's possible that the argument began when JBR snatched some pineapple out of BR's bowl and he snapped (maybe a "final straw" from other incidents that had occurred earlier -- maybe feeling that she got "more" or "better" presents than he did, or maybe finding presents for JBR in the basement when BR "peeked" by tearing away the wrapping and he was mad that she was getting still more presents when he thought all of them would be for his birthday - just a few weeks away).

I think you're right that we'll never really know what sparked the argument short of confession, but I do think the snatched pineapple is a plausible theory. JMO, of course.

 

[ThinkHard]

Yes, akh - there is some evidence that BR had issues about others touching his food. Although it was not mentioned in the CBS program, in Kolar's book (and I believe Thomas's book as well) an incident is described during one of BR's taped interviews (I don't remember if this was the interview soon after JBR's death or the later one when BR was 11). Here's what Kolar says about the incident (this is from page 349 of Foreign Faction):

"On another occasion, Dr. Bernhard had mistakenly taken a sip from Burke's soda can. He seeed to bristle at the instrusion of his personal space/property and indicated that he couldn't drink fro the can anymore."

From other taped interviews with BR, we know that pineapple was a favorite snack of both BR and JBR. We also know that JBR ingested pineapple within a few hours of her death, and we know, of course, about the bowl of pineapple with BR's fingerprints found on the kitchen table that PR claimed no knowledge of.

So I think all of these elements combined are what have led a number of investigators to theorize that it's possible that the argument began when JBR snatched some pineapple out of BR's bowl and he snapped (maybe a "final straw" from other incidents that had occurred earlier -- maybe feeling that she got "more" or "better" presents than he did, or maybe finding presents for JBR in the basement when BR "peeked" by tearing away the wrapping and he was mad that she was getting still more presents when he thought all of them would be for his birthday - just a few weeks away).

I think you're right that we'll never really know what sparked the argument short of confession, but I do think the snatched pineapple is a plausible theory. JMO, of course.

I do think the snatched pineapple could account for why the rest of the snack wasn't finished, but I'm not sure it accounted for the head blow. In my mind I just think the pineapple would have been found in her stomach instead of small intestines if the blow came just after she swallowed it. With a head blow like that I can't imagine there would be disruptions to digestion even if she was still alive for a time now the head blow and death. But who knows I could be wrong.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

I do think the snatched pineapple could account for why the rest of the snack wasn't finished, but I'm not sure it accounted for the head blow. In my mind I just think the pineapple would have been found in her stomach instead of small intestines if the blow came just after she swallowed it. With a head blow like that I can't imagine there would be disruptions to digestion even if she was still alive for a time now the head blow and death. But who knows I could be wrong.

Yes, that is the mystery for me. However if JBR'S digestive system was functioning a few hours after the head blow would that explain enough time for the pineapple to move from her stomach to the intestines?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[CoreyRocks]

Respectfully but i disagree. What would be the higher risk? Some neighbor looking out their window in the middle of the night and noticing their neighbor driving off or police finding a body at a known crime scene? I do not think anyone who would write that stupid note would stop for one minute and think about a neighbor. I do think she was clearly thinking about her husband discovering her actions sleeping a few feet away. PR wrote the note, she staged the scene and she played JR like a fiddle.

Imho it was the other way around. JR set up Patsy and it worked.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I do think the snatched pineapple could account for why the rest of the snack wasn't finished, but I'm not sure it accounted for the head blow. In my mind I just think the pineapple would have been found in her stomach instead of small intestines if the blow came just after she swallowed it. With a head blow like that I can't imagine there would be disruptions to digestion even if she was still alive for a time now the head blow and death. But who knows I could be wrong.

Digestion would continue as long as she was alive.

 

[otg]

I think the 'cording' is simply 2 shoelaces. Both pieces measure 21 inches in length.

The cord was identified. There is a thread about it at FFJ where Cynic did a lot of experimentation with it:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?10093-Stansport-nylon-utility-cord

 

[ThinkHard]

Digestion would continue as long as she was alive.

Not neccasarily. If the part of the brain responsible for digestion was damaged in anyway, it could effect the brains ability to send signals to continue digestion.

 

[ThinkHard]

The cord was identified. There is a thread about it at FFJ where Cynic did a lot of experimentation with it:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?10093-Stansport-nylon-utility-cord

Could be, the thing is the exact same type of cording is what's in the inside of sail line.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Not neccasarily. If the part of the brain responsible for digestion was damaged in anyway, it could effect the brains ability to send signals to continue digestion.

It is the brain stem that controls and regulates breathing, heartbeat and digestion. We know she was breathing and had a heartbeat until she was strangled. Her digestion would have continued until death as well.

 

[ThinkHard]

It is the brain stem that controls and regulates breathing, heartbeat and digestion. We know she was breathing and had a heartbeat until she was strangled. Her digestion would have continued until death as well.

Again, not neccasarily, if she had a downward blow to her brain, the swelling can effect the autonomic nervous system in th hindbrain. In which case it can be malfunction effecting some functions of the autonomic nervous system while not effecting others, or effecting them at a different degrees. Personally I suffer from autonomic disfunction and am far too familiar with how it can disregulate in some areas while not in others....or in other cases effect all aspects of autonomic function.

Additionally it's been speculated that her breathing and BP were likely slowed after the blow indicating she could have appeared dead. If that theory holds true, one can reason her breathing and BP were in fact an aspect of her autonomic nervous system that wasn't functioning properly and one could reason this would be indication to assume other aspects of her autonomic nervous were also not functioning properly at that point, such as her digestion.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Again, not neccasarily, if she had a downward blow to her brain, the swelling can effect the autonomic nervous system in th hindbrain. In which case it can be malfunction effecting some functions of the autonomic nervous system while not effecting others, or effecting them at a different degrees. Personally I suffer from autonomic disfunction and am far too familiar with how it can disregulate in some areas while not in others....or in other cases effect all aspects of autonomic function.



Additionally it's been speculated that her breathing and BP were likely slowed after the blow indicating she could have appeared dead. If that theory holds true, one can reason her breathing and BP were in fact an aspect of her autonomic nervous system that wasn't functioning properly and one could reason this would be indication to assume other aspects of her autonomic nervous were also not functioning properly at that point, such as her digestion.

Do you have a medical link to support this? I'm not following your post at all.