Was the Ramsey house typically a mess?

[CloudedTruth]

Do you think Boulder PD personnel who testified before the Grand Jury told them everything they knew?

I'm baaaack!

So, I think this is a key question to ask.

Has it ever been revealed who all the PD personnel who testified were? I know some of the names, but I'm not confident that I know all of them, and I think it may matter who they were as to if they told them everything they knew. We know that some of them were very unhappy with the DA and his office, and how they inserted themselves into the investigation. But I think some were also falling in line. I'd also be interested to know if there were any not admitted pre-conceived ideas about the PD and specifically about certain personnel who had been more vocal, and were also targeted as being leakers and incompetent.

From what little has been revealed by former Grand Jurors, it is apparent (also by the fact that they voted to indict each parent on two charges) that they did not believe in the intruder theory. It was also said however, that they hoped a trial would reveal specifically who did what, and that is the big issue with this case. The R's managed to muddy the waters enough so as to prevent the ability of a clear picture of that. Everyone has a theory as to who was the main perpetrator, but lacking that clarity and hard evidence, it remains that.....a theory. But there is also apparently still some evidence that has never been released to the public, at least that is what I have heard. For example, the original and clean recording of the 911 call that is still to my understanding in police custody. I do still believe that based upon what the police know / knew, they were able to come to a reasonable conclusion of who the main perpetrator was. And I think it is clear based upon those indictments, that the GJ felt strongly that both parents, individually or collectively were aware that someone had some issues that posed a risk, and that they failed to take appropriate steps to address that, which resulted in the death of JBR.

I would like to believe that the police who testified did tell the GJ everything they knew. But there may have been some who did not want to get on the wrong side of Alex Hunter.

 

[Meara]

The soda cans in the sink are strange, but could have occurred after toothbrushing. BR and JB could have drank some soda after JR and PR went to bed. But I really feel that PR never really went to bed. You know going through all of this stuff I tend forget some details and facts. I cannot remember if they were actually packed to go on a flight. Or did they have everything they needed already in Georgia? Like they didn't need to pack just take the gifts? Like I said above I think if DS stayed over that maybe he was going to accompany the R's to Georgia. I just don't see either set of parents thinking a sleepover that night was a good idea with early travel plans. It is curious on him saying when he snooped in the basement he saw 2 bikes and then his disappears.

As messy as this house was I wouldn't be surprised if the BPD didn't miss some evidence.

Also going to delve back into the scatolia with BR. This is very common with youngsters who are already SO's. I know it is common with other disorders, but is also prominent with SO's. It's still my opinion that BR did the SA and the initial blow to the head. I don't know about everything else. Still leaning JR on everything else except the note. Unless JR and PR were into some really weird stuff. Which is also possible I guess. How do say my weird religious cult sacrificed my daughter to the cops. Especially if some are all sitting there in the house with you (maybe the Stines). I don't really believe they were in a cult but you never know I guess.

Hi! I had hoped to reply sooner but had some pressing things to attend to.

Two different trips were planned back to back. The first was to the summer home in Michigan to celebrate Christmas with John Andrew, Melinda, and her fiance'. The plan was to fly to Minneapolis on JR's plane, collect the Georgia folks, who were flying there commercially from Atlanta, and proceed together to Charlevoix. It would be a short visit, after which everyone would return home. The second trip was to Florida, to go on a four or five day Disney cruise called the Big Red Boat. According to JR, it was a celebration of PR's birthday on the 29th, a celebration of New Year's, and a planned distraction from the anniversary of Beth's death, as well as a fun family trip. JR - nothing if not efficient.

PR told police they had planned to go to Charlevoix on Thursday 12/26, return on Saturday 12/28, and catch the boat on Sunday 12/29. That may not be quite accurate. Factoring in other accounts, it's likely that they were supposed to fly out of Denver on the 29th, arrive in Florida, take a bus to Orlando, and catch the boat on the Monday. Either way, the point is that the timeline was pretty insane. Because of the tight turnaround, PR was packing summer clothes for everyone for the cruise before leaving for Michigan, and was at the same time packing winter clothes for the visit in Charlevoix - all of this with the Christmas party for 30 guests on the 23rd, Christmas Eve church service/gift wrapping/getting everything ready for the morning, Christmas Day, hair dying, dinner at the Whites', gift delivery to friends, more gift wrapping for the Atlanta family, and getting up at 5:30 AM on the 26th to depart for Minneapolis on schedule. No wonder PR felt stressed and not keen to go to Charlevoix. Anything's possible, I suppose but, to me, that timeline and pressure argue against having Doug or any friend sleep over with BR on the 25th.

 

[SweetDreamsAreMadeOfCheez]

Hi! I had hoped to reply sooner but had some pressing things to attend to.

Two different trips were planned back to back. The first was to the summer home in Michigan to celebrate Christmas with John Andrew, Melinda, and her fiance'. The plan was to fly to Minneapolis on JR's plane, collect the Georgia folks, who were flying there commercially from Atlanta, and proceed together to Charlevoix. It would be a short visit, after which everyone would return home. The second trip was to Florida, to go on a four or five day Disney cruise called the Big Red Boat. According to JR, it was a celebration of PR's birthday on the 29th, a celebration of New Year's, and a planned distraction from the anniversary of Beth's death, as well as a fun family trip. JR - nothing if not efficient.

PR told police they had planned to go to Charlevoix on Thursday 12/26, return on Saturday 12/28, and catch the boat on Sunday 12/29. That may not be quite accurate. Factoring in other accounts, it's likely that they were supposed to fly out of Denver on the 29th, arrive in Florida, take a bus to Orlando, and catch the boat on the Monday. Either way, the point is that the timeline was pretty insane. Because of the tight turnaround, PR was packing summer clothes for everyone for the cruise before leaving for Michigan, and was at the same time packing winter clothes for the visit in Charlevoix - all of this with the Christmas party for 30 guests on the 23rd, Christmas Eve church service/gift wrapping/getting everything ready for the morning, Christmas Day, hair dying, dinner at the Whites', gift delivery to friends, more gift wrapping for the Atlanta family, and getting up at 5:30 AM on the 26th to depart for Minneapolis on schedule. No wonder PR felt stressed and not keen to go to Charlevoix. Anything's possible, I suppose but, to me, that timeline and pressure argue against having Doug or any friend sleep over with BR on the 25th.

Why come back to CO between GA and Cruise. Seems unnecessary. I had totally forgotten about the cruise. Thank you for reminding me. I remember the local speculation about the cruise being it was booked after the murder. I am not sure why? Not like it helped anybody to book a cruise after the fact. Totally agree they wouldn't have Doug stay over that night. I didn't think Doug stayed over anyway.

 

[Cryptic]

Before you dismiss LE skill set because they weren't homicide detectives, I will explain to you how LEs job intersect with each other.... My father was not a homicide detective but that doesn't mean he wasn't involved in them or lacked the skill to do so. You may think auto theft sounds pretty benign. It wasn't. It was heavy motorcycle gang, and every other gang you could think of.

You have very good points. But...

One of the lead detectives later emphasized that the crime took place in Boulder- a high income, high education socio economic bubble where there was little crime of any kind.

That means that what ever specialty the local police had, they probably did not have the constant action that would enable them to develop their skills to the next level like your father did. For example, there are not alot of violent motorcycle gangs operating stolen car rings in Boulder.

Of course, being a socio economic bubble does not eliminate all crime. But... Boulder had a double "whammy" in regards to police ability. The town is very progressive. The District Attorneys had a practice of resolving criminal cases of any kind by immediately offering defendants generous "deals they could not refuse" plea bargain wise.

This led to the police and the District Attorneys having no experience in actually investigating cases. Instead, the expectation was: Suspect jumps into plea bargain negotiations after being advised that the ones offered by local prosecutors would be very generous. Another case closed..... .

And.... a final whammy in this case.

The detective's primary suspects were not only wealthy, but also highly intelligent. Wealth creates a degree of deference from the beginning. The highly intelligent component ( father was not a trust fund baby, but had built a technology company from scratch. Mother was astute and not the stereotypical "beauty blond.") combined with the ability to hire resources / distractions then led to his two primary suspects running circles around the police and district attorney.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

You have very good points. But...

One of the lead detectives later emphasized that the crime took place in Boulder- a high income, high education socio economic bubble where there was little crime of any kind.

That means that what ever specialty the local police had, they probably did not have the constant action that would enable them to develop their skills to the next level like your father did. For example, there are not alot of violent motorcycle gangs operating stolen car rings in Boulder.

Of course, being a socio economic bubble does not eliminate all crime. But... Boulder had a double "whammy" in regards to police ability. The town is very progressive. The District Attorneys had a practice of resolving criminal cases of any kind by immediately offering defendants generous "deals they could not refuse" plea bargain wise.

This led to the police and the District Attorneys having no experience in actually investigating cases. Instead, the expectation was: Suspect jumps into plea bargain negotiations after being advised that the ones offered by local prosecutors would be very generous. Another case closed..... .

And.... a final whammy in this case.

The detective's primary suspects were not only wealthy, but also highly intelligent. Wealth creates a degree of deference from the beginning. The highly intelligent component ( father was not a trust fund baby, but had built a technology company from scratch. Mother was astute and not the stereotypical "beauty blond.") combined with the ability to hire resources / distractions then led to his two primary suspects running circles around the police and district attorney.

Good points but did all LE start their careers in Boulder? There were a lot of eyes on this case. They would never get away with this now. If they thought the media was tough in scrutinizing their story then, they' d get eaten up and swallowed now.