Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

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jolady said:
bbm
Just a comment on the bolded portion, Woodstock is a city with 35,000 people and alot of smaller communities surrounding it. Everyone does not know everyone. Maybe in the drug community, I can't speak to that, but not everyday people. There are 6 major grocery stores in the city that I can think of offhand. I didn't want people to think that there is just 1 that you shop at regularly and recognize the same people. There are at least a half dozen elementary schools as well. HTH.
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People in the same age groups tend to know each other though.

The elementary schools narrow down to 4 high schools.

Through minor sports........they know each other.

Through parties and the few bars...........they know each other.

The druggy crowd narrows it down some more.

By the age of the people involved........young adults.......many have left Woodstock and gone on to University, College or work somewhere else.

The ones still remaining in Woodstock, and involved in the drug culture, are greatly reduced.

They know where to buy their drugs, who to sell their drugs to, who is taking what, and where to borrow drugs when needed.

The methadone clinic does draw some addicts into the city from surround towns, and they may not be as well known as those born and raised in Woodstock.

I would be more surprised the people in this sad story don't know each other, or at least of each other, than did know each other.

JMO.............
 
jolady said:
tmhco said:
Snipped by me.
I am not going to say that I fully understand the forensic evidence, because I don't. But I don't believe TS's blood was found mixed with semen. A spot was examined and found with TS's blood and unidentified sperm fractions. I don't even know if this is possible but it is how I am thinking this could have happened (because I really, really don't want to believe the rape). I would concede that the sperm is MR's. It is evidence that he had sex with TLM in the front seat and I would think it is safe to assume he has had sex with others in the car. It doesn't appear that he used a condom with TLM, is it not possible that there was sperm fractions on his hands or hers while they are cleaning/wiping themselves and it is transferred to side mouldings and elsewhere. Then TS's blood is splattered during the murder and it lands on one of the spots. I don't think this is a coincidence that it landed on an exact sperm spot because they didn't swab the entire car, it is my understanding that they examined spots that clearly had blood stain on it as that is what they were looking for. Makes sense to me that blood splatter/stain would be more visible than sperm. So there could be sperm fractions all over the car but were not examined as it was not evident because it isn't highlighted by the blood. Not sure if this makes sense. Any thoughts?
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The specimen did not meet the standards to call it semen. What I take from that is that is it was most likely semen. Coupled with the rest of the evidence, it is just too much of a coincidence for me.

I would like nothing more than to know that she did not suffer that part of it. I just don't see any other reasonable explanation. What did TLM want with Tori? JMO
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CarrieBean said:
I don't need to be told about small towns. I never claimed everybody knows everybody (that's a figure of speech for people in small towns). I've been living in the same town of approx. 75, 000 for the past 17 years. Of course I don't know everybody however there is a good chance I have crossed paths for any number of reasons over the years with the majority.

My point was that there is a good chance that these two could have come across Tori, anyone in her family, anyone who knew Tori''s family, etc. but it doesn't mean Tori was targeted. I don't believe she was their target. I think they would have taken any little girl given the chance.
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Wow, sorry. I wasn't trying to school you on small towns. From your post I just wasn't sure you were aware of how big or small a city Woodstock actually is that was it. I only bolded that part of your post and not the other because I didn't disagree with your belief that she was wasn't their target. Just trying to clarify the small town part. Yikes.
 
Kamille said:
Because the forensics would have been there right along with TLM. Or the lack of forensics as it were if you are to believe his version of events. And he knew it. So he didn't call. If his story was true and he'd have called the police at the scene, he would be a free man today.

MOO
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What forensics?

If no sexual assault took place..........the only forensic proof they would have found is the location of the blood, and TLM's fingerprints on the hammer.

LE knows she bought the hammer. They know she wielded the hammer.

Still, MR is charged with the murder, because he was there and TLM accused him of the kidnapping and sexual assault.

TLM could not have accused him of sexual assault........but she could accuse him of kidnapping and murder. She could have said the same things she does now.

I don't know why I did it.......I can't answer that..........I had flashbacks......

IMO.........MR would still be on trial............IMO..........

If he is innocent he should have called LE right away.........and went to trial like a man. His behavior after the fact was disgusting.........but he isn't on trial for being of low moral character...........JMO.
 
matou said:
MR's car passes the point where TLM and Tori are captured on video camera at 3:30:56 and then TLM and Tori are on camera at the same spot at 3:32:20. That's MR driving by 84 seconds before Tori and TLM get there.






http://www.scribd.com/doc/84386320/Rafferty-Trial-Evidence

This shows planning. JMO
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Thank you, sometimes pictures help get the point I was trying to make across... 84 seconds apart, likely meant he drove right by them, why not just stop and load them up, heck, if a kidnap, sex assault and murder were the order of the day and one of the people involved happens to be the business partner in an escort service, possible drug dealer I doubt he's afraid of a traffic violation for stopping in a no parking zone, but likely more fearful of someone seeing TLM and TS get in his car if he stopped on the main street, but rather planned to go to the furthest away place to park away from all the activity of kids and parents leaving the school at dismisal time. There would have been a greater chance of being noticed. Many people wouldn't think twice if they saw an 18 year old female walking with a 8 year old girl, however people may take note of 18 year old girl and 8 year old child getting into beat to crap hand painted Honda civic driven by a 28 year old male.

The pickup in my opinion was fully planned and executed with only one flaw in the plan, the video camera. I'm willing to bet that car was on the 401 within 3 minutes, there wouldnt have been any stops in Woodstock with TS in that car as it would have been too much of a risk. Then again, perhaps they all stopped at Wendy's on the way out to the 401, after all they were just babysitting TS.... Trust me, no reasonable adult sitting on the jury would be lead to think that's the case. Let's just hope there isn't any unreasonable people on it who will buy into whatever the defense presents.
 
matou said:
I somehow missed that. Thanks to whoever brought up this article again. I also noticed how DiManno calls TLM "drug-addled" in the title of the article. Funny term. JMO

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...ddled-mcclintic-offered-to-take-fall-for-beau
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Also from that same article...

To Rafferty, however, McClintic made a vow if suspicion should settle on the couple. “I said that I would take the fall for everything, that I would say it was all me. He had more to lose than I did. He had a life, a job, things going for him and I had nothing.”

Rafferty purportedly pointed out the consequences of making such a claim. “You know that it would be first-degree murder, right?”

BBM

That statement right there shows the snake that is Michael Rafferty IMO. He is confirming with her that she knows the consequences of taking the fall so that he can have the confidence that he's got her wrapped around his finger and that she will go ahead with it if it should come to that. Explains why he was so confident in the following weeks that he could just go on with his ordinary schedule of pill popping and "fishing".

For the life of me I will never understand why, when TLM's name was given to LE by the mother of the victim herself, that they would have put her in a juvenile detention center and not an adult jail where they could tape all of her conversations during her visits. Especially since she was 18 at the time. Hopefully another lesson learned in this horrible saga.

MOO
 
Ardy said:
People in the same age groups tend to know each other though.

The elementary schools narrow down to 4 high schools.

Through minor sports........they know each other.

Through parties and the few bars...........they know each other.

The druggy crowd narrows it down some more.

By the age of the people involved........young adults.......many have left Woodstock and gone on to University, College or work somewhere else.

The ones still remaining in Woodstock, and involved in the drug culture, are greatly reduced.

They know where to buy their drugs, who to sell their drugs to, who is taking what, and where to borrow drugs when needed.

The methadone clinic does draw some addicts into the city from surround towns, and they may not be as well known as those born and raised in Woodstock.

I would be more surprised the people in this sad story don't know each other, or at least of each other, than did know each other.

JMO.............
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I don't disagree. I can't speak to the drug community but I would suspect you are correct. As far as everyday people, I believe it is less so. Paths certainly cross when you belong to organizations, sports etc but I was just trying to clarify that Woodstock is a city not a town and is of such a size that not everyone knows everyone. That was my only point. Just in case there is someone out there that isn't familiar with Woodstock.
 
Ardy said:
I don't know if we could expect a lot of scientific evidence, given the circumstances.

My understanding is that if the Crown submits items for testing, they must reveal the results of the tests, regardless of if it helps or hurts their case against the accused.

I think some of the evidence we heard, the Crown knew would not explain a lot, but had to introduce it regardless.

Along this line............can anyone remember how TLM's letters, journal and statements to her Godmother about microwaving her dog, get into the Crown's case? Did the Crown introduce it, or did the defense bring it in during cross examination?

I have wondered where this information came from, because the revelations certainly didn't support TLM's testimony.

TIA

JMO...............
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I haven't read all the posts yet so this may have been answered but I believe it was brought up on cross about the talk with her godmother, the story of the dog and the assault on another prisoner.
 
I don't remember reading this article describing MTR's reaction to TLM's testimony.

There is no end to his cruelty.

JMO

“The last time I saw him, I’ll never forget what he said to me,” McClintic recounted from the witness stand here Wednesday. “I remember I touched his face. He looked up and laughed at me. And he said, ‘you’ll do anything for a little bit of love, eh?’”

In the courtroom, Rafferty must have found this recollection amusing. He snorted from the defendant’s dock. And then he smiled; more a sneer, really, creasing his flabby cheeks.

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...ddled-mcclintic-offered-to-take-fall-for-beau
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jolady said:
tmhco said:
Snipped by me.
I am not going to say that I fully understand the forensic evidence, because I don't. But I don't believe TS's blood was found mixed with semen. A spot was examined and found with TS's blood and unidentified sperm fractions. I don't even know if this is possible but it is how I am thinking this could have happened (because I really, really don't want to believe the rape). I would concede that the sperm is MR's. It is evidence that he had sex with TLM in the front seat and I would think it is safe to assume he has had sex with others in the car. It doesn't appear that he used a condom with TLM, is it not possible that there was sperm fractions on his hands or hers while they are cleaning/wiping themselves and it is transferred to side mouldings and elsewhere. Then TS's blood is splattered during the murder and it lands on one of the spots. I don't think this is a coincidence that it landed on an exact sperm spot because they didn't swab the entire car, it is my understanding that they examined spots that clearly had blood stain on it as that is what they were looking for. Makes sense to me that blood splatter/stain would be more visible than sperm. So there could be sperm fractions all over the car but were not examined as it was not evident because it isn't highlighted by the blood. Not sure if this makes sense. Any thoughts?
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It's hard to make sense of all that evidence, but I believe the evidence was they found a mixture of blood and semen belonging to TLM and MR in several places on the "back" of the front seat, which would have been right beside where they found a spot of VS blood mixed with unknown male sperm cells or fractions.

So the evidence would indicate that MR and TLM had sex in the backseat and somehow it ended up on the back of the front seats for sure.

Not sure how they managed that........and don't even want to guess.

That is not to say they had sex the day of the abduction, because the testimony has been that MR and TLM had sex in the car the first night they met and several times thereafter.

JMO.............
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Ardy said:
What forensics?

If no sexual assault took place..........the only forensic proof they would have found is the location of the blood, and TLM's fingerprints on the hammer.

LE knows she bought the hammer. They know she wielded the hammer.

Still, MR is charged with the murder, because he was there and TLM accused him of the kidnapping and sexual assault.

TLM could not have accused him of sexual assault........but she could accuse him of kidnapping and murder. She could have said the same things she does now.

I don't know why I did it.......I can't answer that..........I had flashbacks......

IMO.........MR would still be on trial............IMO..........

If he is innocent he should have called LE right away.........and went to trial like a man. His behavior after the fact was disgusting.........but he isn't on trial for being of low moral character...........JMO.
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You answered your own question. If no forensics of a sexual assault were present, and only TLM's prints were on the hammer then the reason for why Victoria was with them in the first place would be the only thing to question MR about.

Now if he had a plausible explanation for that then there you go. Free man.

Of course since he didn't do that, one can only assume that he has no plausible explanation for anything other than he was part of a duo who kidnapped a child for sexual purposes and then she was murdered to prevent her from identifying either of them.

MOO
 
Ardy said:
If MR had called the police at the crime scene, he likely would sitting in the same place as he is now........IMO

LE isn't going to show up at a horrific crime scene and let anyone walk away.

TLM said MR did it.......and MR was arrested and charged on her statement.

If she said he did it at the scene..........why would the result be any different?

JMO...........
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BBM: If MTR had called the police at the crime scene, there would be ample evidence to show that TLM did the murder, and that there was no a sexual assault.

JMO
 
Kamille said:
Not to mention the drive by at 9:04am. And of course the one that TLM testified to at 3:05pm when she was in the car with him and he was daring her to do it. Which was also captured on video.

MOO
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I wonder if it will be brought up about why he was driving past the school at 9am.... I think he could have been scoping out the school or possible even looking for late stragglers and attempt to abduct a child that morning on his own, but there was none as school had started...?

JMO
 
jolady said:
Wow, sorry. I wasn't trying to school you on small towns. From your post I just wasn't sure you were aware of how big or small a city Woodstock actually is that was it. I only bolded that part of your post and not the other because I didn't disagree with your belief that she was wasn't their target. Just trying to clarify the small town part. Yikes.
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I apologize, jolady, for being snippy. This trial stresses me out. I started following Tori's case the day she went missing and really just want to see these two get what they deserve. No punishment could match what they put Victoria though.

These two are a very good reason to bring the death penalty back to Canada.

ETA: Just from neighbours, old neighbours, work, school, kids friends and their parents, people in the medical field (I have a son with a disability, so I come across all types during dr., therapy, etc appoints). Not to mention people I come across every day while walking, at the store, etc. I come across all kinds of people every day. This is what I was trying to get at when saying in a small town there was a good chance that at some point they came across someone related to Tori (whether it be family, friends, parents friends, or from just seeing her at the corner/grocery store)
 
Jezbel said:
I wonder if it will be brought upper about why he was driving past the school at 9am.... I think he could have been scoping out the school or possible even looking for late stragglers and attempt to abduct a child that morning on his own, but there was nine as school had started...?

JMO
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Or he was looking for a good parking spot, out of the way of prying eyes. Scoping the area so to speak as you've pointed out. By going past the school in the morning, he could see the dynamics of how cars and children flowed into and out of the school and whether that was a good location for a kidnapping.

MOO
 
I have been hoping the Crown would put forth such a strong case to force MR to take the stand, but I am not sure they have accomplished that in the opinion of the defense lawyers.

We shall see.

I fail to understand why some posters are so keen on disparaging the defense lawyer, as other than duelling with TLM during her cross examination, and some questions raised to TM during her testimony, I believe he has introduced new evidence into the trial during his cross examinations.

The answers to some of his questions have raised some eyebrows I am sure.

IIRC RS was asked by a reporter what he thought of the defense questions, and he replied that he had no problem with them because he wanted the full truth to come out.

Between the Crown and the defense........hopefully, we can find the truth.

I would also point out that the Crown must provide the results of all tests, regardless of the results............but also the defense cannot put in evidence that it knows is false.

In this way, the truth should come out by combining both sides, because defense counsel is acting as MR's voice in the trial.

JMO.................
 
Wondergirl said:
BBM: If MTR had called the police at the crime scene, there would be ample evidence to show that TLM did the murder, and that there was no a sexual assault.

JMO
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But, if he had not committed a sexual assault, why would he be concerned to prove that one hadn't happened?

His concern would have been to kidnapping and murder.

If TLM said he participated in the crime with her................

It would be the same thing as she is saying now, minus the sexual assault.

JMO............
 
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