When Parents Kill..

[BBB167893]

SuperDave:

So it only looked brutal?

That's what I said.

Really.

Really. I have a case most people don't know about I think you should see.

How do you explain that it was simply an illusion?

Do you mean physically or criminally? Because I can provide both. In the physical sense, yes, the strangulation was deep. But it was clean. No marks from the rope sliding, no claw marks on the neck, etc. Ames is THE person to talk to in this regard. Regarding the wrist ligatures, there were no marks that showed JB struggled against them. Regarding her vaginal injuries, any comparison with true pedophilic murder will show the difference. Whomever did that made a very minor injury, as if they couldn't even look at what they were doing. That's all I can think of right now. I'm sure there's more. Criminally, it's a matter of intent.

Casey Anthony is a sociopath and perhaps psychopath.

Perhaps.

Having narcissitic tendancies is not the same thing.

True, but taken to extremes, it is its own form of madness.

PR is not and has never been accused by those who know her to be a sociopath.

Would they know what to look for?

She has a conscience.

Had, you mean. PR is no longer with us. But moreover, you can have a conscience and still do these things. Just chalk it up to "God's will" or whatever.

A sociopath have never apologized for anything because they never think they are wrong.

Sounds like JR.

PR was not a compulsive liar and was not involved in high risk behavior as a truly disturbed person may be.

How said demented? Deeply troubled, maybe. Not only that, but are you aware of what the kind of drugs she was taking can DO to a person's mind? Because I've seen it first-hand.

Your comparison is laughable.

Fine. I've got a few others to try on for size.

Like I said...AFTER THE FACT...we learn these things about the suspected perp.

To hear SOME around here talk, ANYTHING after the fact is worthless.

You cannot make an analogy here because we have nothing similar about PR that relates to KC Anthony either before or after the crime was committed.

I wasn't really trying to make an analogy. For one thing, the way the law handled the two is night and day.

 

[ziggy]

If you were not trying to make an analogous reference to Casey A. it was lost on me as you were responding in kind as such:
"I guess we'd better let Casey Anthony go, then! Narcissism is a CLASSIC form of pathology, and throughout history has caused terrible crimes."

Don't hold back, direct me to the case you hint to.

It was not a soft kill with a garrote. That type of ligature strangulation has NEVER been classified as soft or clean. There are bruises and marks on her neck. It was deep, so how can you say that pulling a cord tight enough to bury it in her neck was not brutal but only the illusion of such? Repulsive.

What drugs are you talking about? Are you aware that prescription drugs affect certain people much differently than others and that is why MDs switch people to other options? Your experience first hand may have many distinguishing factors.

 

[Ames]

If you were not trying to make an analogous reference to Casey A. it was lost on me as you were responding in kind as such:
"I guess we'd better let Casey Anthony go, then! Narcissism is a CLASSIC form of pathology, and throughout history has caused terrible crimes."

Don't hold back, direct me to the case you hint to.

It was not a soft kill with a garrote. That type of ligature strangulation has NEVER been classified as soft or clean. There are bruises and marks on her neck. It was deep, so how can you say that pulling a cord tight enough to bury it in her neck was not brutal but only the illusion of such? Repulsive.

What drugs are you talking about? Are you aware that prescription drugs affect certain people much differently than others and that is why MDs switch people to other options? Your experience first hand may have many distinguishing factors.

I...for one...know that Klonopin and Alcohol do not mix very well together. Patsy took klonopin...Patsy drank alcohol at the White's party. Nuff said...

 

[Sophie]

Nah, your post didn't BORE me at all...it just pi$$ed me off. I hope he goes to prison, and never gets out...and I also hope that he becomes the "wife" of a big guy named Bruno, while he is there.

Hi Ames, this is the Baby Peter latest.




http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8055340.stm

 

[DeeDee249]

Patsy's prescription drug history has to be examined. She had obviously undergone strong chemo for her cancer- followed by anti-anxiety drugs and others. Chemo changes the physiology of a person. Things affect people differently afterwards, like alcohol for one.
We have to consider the part these drugs played in Patsy's rage attack and/or the events of that night. This is by no means an excuse for her behavior, but it is an explanation.
When drugs alter a person's actions and reactions, pondering things like "prior behavior" is meaningless. There didn't have to be any prior indication that this would happen. She snapped- and that was that.

 

[Ames]

Patsy's prescription drug history has to be examined. She had obviously undergone strong chemo for her cancer- followed by anti-anxiety drugs and others. Chemo changes the physiology of a person. Things affect people differently afterwards, like alcohol for one.
We have to consider the part these drugs played in Patsy's rage attack and/or the events of that night. This is by no means an excuse for her behavior, but it is an explanation.
When drugs alter a person's actions and reactions, pondering things like "prior behavior" is meaningless. There didn't have to be any prior indication that this would happen. She snapped- and that was that.

Boy don't I know it! Truer words have NEVER been spoken. My husband has taken those things together...klonopin and alcohol...and well, lets just say that I had to call 911. It TOTALLY altered his personality....he is normally such a laid back guy.

 

[ziggy]

Very good observations on the drug and alcohol use. I've worked in the medical field and have seen Valium turn people beligerant(sp?) and violent and others to funny mush. These reactions are usually recurring. I can take ambien and have a glass of wine or something and I've always been fine. Others I know get totally whack with that and it has never waivered.

Do we know of her having personality altering reactions in the past, since I don't believe this would have been the first time she had mixed these?

 

[DeeDee249]

Very good observations on the drug and alcohol use. I've worked in the medical field and have seen Valium turn people beligerant(sp?) and violent and others to funny mush. These reactions are usually recurring. I can take ambien and have a glass of wine or something and I've always been fine. Others I know get totally whack with that and it has never waivered.

Do we know of her having personality altering reactions in the past, since I don't believe this would have been the first time she had mixed these?

I recall reading that some who knew her said she could have an explosive temper at times. Have any of you seen the Ambien ads on TV? Have you heard that list of side effects? Violence, suicidal thoughts, extreme aggression. Not that every body has the same side effects, but it is terrifying to imagine someone's otherwise calm normal persona suddenly becoming suicidal or violent and aggressive.
What many IDI do not understand is that many of us RDI who feel PR was responsible that night do NOT think she just suddenly got angry at a toilet accident and decided to kill her daughter. She snapped. A moment in time, irreversible, terrible, FINAL. And Patsy was horrified. But just as quickly, the RST "cleaners" were on the scene and she lost control of that, too.
To me, PR was a victim of the RST as well. But given that her death was inevitable at some point, if she'd simply owned up to what happened (that she snapped- because of her meds) would her remaining 10 years have been peaceful? The world would KNOW....no innocent people would have been thrown under the bus....and she'd have died with a clear conscience. Her surviving family would be no less damaged than they already are- still suspects in most minds.

 

[ziggy]

Unless there are accounts that the meds affected PR negatively I'm not willing to try and fit that into a snapped scenario, especially given that there was no abuse history even with the rumor that she may have had a temper.

Most of those drug side effects don't phase me. My Mother, OTOH, couldn't take anything without becoming out of control.

But again I stress, people know when those drugs have a severe and negative effect on them and others will see it too.

There is no proof of this theory regarding PR.

 

[Ames]

Very good observations on the drug and alcohol use. I've worked in the medical field and have seen Valium turn people beligerant(sp?) and violent and others to funny mush. These reactions are usually recurring. I can take ambien and have a glass of wine or something and I've always been fine. Others I know get totally whack with that and it has never waivered.

Do we know of her having personality altering reactions in the past, since I don't believe this would have been the first time she had mixed these?

OMG...that ambien is some pretty scary stuff. Alot of people sleep walk while taking it, and do stuff that they don't remember. One guy that I know, tried to flush his barking dog down the toilet, while taking that stuff.

 

[Ravyn]

Actually could PR had mixed this for the first time that night, this could explain why none seen the way she could had reacted.. Cause the R's both said they don't drink much if I'm not mistaked..

 

[DeeDee249]

My daughter gets "tipsy" on 2 glasses of wine. When she's taken her Ritalin, it only takes 1 glass. I am sure PR did not have to drink excessively for the alcohol to have an effect. Any drugs would just exaggerate the effect of both the alcohol and the drug.

 

[BBB167893]

If you were not trying to make an analogous reference to Casey A. it was lost on me as you were responding in kind as such:
"I guess we'd better let Casey Anthony go, then! Narcissism is a CLASSIC form of pathology, and throughout history has caused terrible crimes."

Whatever.

Don't hold back, direct me to the case you hint to.

Okay, but you were warned. There's a man in Maine right now serving a life sentence for murder. His name is Dennis Dechaine. His victim was a 12-year-old girl named Sarah Cherry. In 1988, he kidnapped her from a neighbor's house where she was babysitting, took her out into the woods, and brutalized her. He stabbed her multiple times with a small knife on his keychain and strangled her to death with rope. Worst of all, he used sticks to penetrate her vaginally and anally. They were still inside her when the cops found her body. That animal did all that to her while she was alive and conscious. Just talking about it makes me sick.

It was not a soft kill with a garrote. That type of ligature strangulation has NEVER been classified as soft or clean.

A TRUE garrote, you mean.

There are bruises and marks on her neck.

I know that. But they might have come from earlier in the night. Werner Spitz thought so.

It was deep, so how can you say that pulling a cord tight enough to bury it in her neck was not brutal but only the illusion of such?

How can I say it? I already explained how. One of the reasons I decided to write the book is to answer stuff like this.

Repulsive.

I'll ignore that.

What drugs are you talking about?

The kind PR was using, by her own admission. It's in the first few lines of her interview with Tom Haney. I'll find them.

Are you aware that prescription drugs affect certain people much differently than others and that is why MDs switch people to other options? Your experience first hand may have many distinguishing factors.

Once I could write off as you say. Twice in a row, I have to wonder.

 

[BBB167893]

Actually could PR had mixed this for the first time that night, this could explain why none seen the way she could had reacted.. Cause the R's both said they don't drink much if I'm not mistaked..

Yeah, who says it couldn't be the first time?

There's something else, too. Let me see if I can find it...

 

[Ames]

I recall reading that some who knew her said she could have an explosive temper at times. Have any of you seen the Ambien ads on TV? Have you heard that list of side effects? Violence, suicidal thoughts, extreme aggression. Not that every body has the same side effects, but it is terrifying to imagine someone's otherwise calm normal persona suddenly becoming suicidal or violent and aggressive.
What many IDI do not understand is that many of us RDI who feel PR was responsible that night do NOT think she just suddenly got angry at a toilet accident and decided to kill her daughter. She snapped. A moment in time, irreversible, terrible, FINAL. And Patsy was horrified. But just as quickly, the RST "cleaners" were on the scene and she lost control of that, too.
To me, PR was a victim of the RST as well. But given that her death was inevitable at some point, if she'd simply owned up to what happened (that she snapped- because of her meds) would her remaining 10 years have been peaceful? The world would KNOW....no innocent people would have been thrown under the bus....and she'd have died with a clear conscience. Her surviving family would be no less damaged than they already are- still suspects in most minds.

I totally agree with this. I know alot of people that take Ambien...to help them sleep. And I have NEVER heard of anybody...except for Ziggy...that can take it with alcohol, and not feel totally messed up.