Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[dogperson]

If PR caused the injuries by using douche, was the paintbrush then a cover-up for anything, do you think? Did the person who inserted the paintbrush know about the prior injuries? If PR was dumb enough to use douche on a child would she think to cover it up? It's not sexual abuse (although it does constitute a form of abuse, whether she understood it or not), so would she think it was important to hide it? If she did use douche on this child, I can't help thinking how painful it must have been for JonBenet.

I suffered nearly constant bladder infections and irritation as a child but nobody was molesting me. I think it was a combination of the over-use of antibiotics and the fact that my mom thought pouring powder on my private area would help. I can still remember crying after baths when she would apply the powder because it burned. It was some kind of heavily lemon-scented bath powder. She must have assumed it would dry up moisture and prevent problems but I remember it being excruciating. She thought she was helping and wouldn't have considered it abuse. I thought she meant well; I just didn't want her to apply the powder because it burned. It actually was not helping and was probably part of the problem. Could Patsy have thought she was doing something medically beneficial even though JonBenet most likely found it painful or uncomfortable?

 

[UKGuy]

dogpersion,
The douching might be a moot point in that it happened but is not related to the events surrounding JonBenet's death? IMO if you read Kolar carefully, I reckon he is advancing psychological reasons as to why someone might want to insert a paintbrush inside JonBenet, i.e. he does not think it was staging, similarly for the ligature asphyxiation, i.e. Kolar thinks the killer was acting out their issues, etc?

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[andreww]

dogpersion,
The douching might be a moot point in that it happened but is not related to the events surrounding JonBenet's death? IMO if you read Kolar carefully, I reckon he is advancing psychological reasons as to why someone might want to insert a paintbrush inside JonBenet, i.e. he does not think it was staging, similarly for the ligature asphyxiation, i.e. Kolar thinks the killer was acting out their issues, etc?

.

Kolar is just trying to concoct a story to fit his theory, just as Steve Thomas did. Not that he isn't right or wrong, there is just little to no evidence to support that kind of conclusion. It could have been Patsy, it could have been John or it could have been Burke, but nobody can say that with certainty, even a police chief.

 

[elannia]

Im wondering where all these "abrasions" came from(scratches too).From the autopsy report, she had quite a few, rust colored. The head blow knocked her out, so she wasnt struggling around, does anyone know if these were I guess to say "fresh" abrasions, or could they have been older

 

[allysasaurus]

If PR caused the injuries by using douche, was the paintbrush then a cover-up for anything, do you think? Did the person who inserted the paintbrush know about the prior injuries? If PR was dumb enough to use douche on a child would she think to cover it up? It's not sexual abuse (although it does constitute a form of abuse, whether she understood it or not), so would she think it was important to hide it? If she did use douche on this child, I can't help thinking how painful it must have been for JonBenet.

I suffered nearly constant bladder infections and irritation as a child but nobody was molesting me. I think it was a combination of the over-use of antibiotics and the fact that my mom thought pouring powder on my private area would help. I can still remember crying after baths when she would apply the powder because it burned. It was some kind of heavily lemon-scented bath powder. She must have assumed it would dry up moisture and prevent problems but I remember it being excruciating. She thought she was helping and wouldn't have considered it abuse. I thought she meant well; I just didn't want her to apply the powder because it burned. It actually was not helping and was probably part of the problem. Could Patsy have thought she was doing something medically beneficial even though JonBenet most likely found it painful or uncomfortable?

Like ive said before, maybe the paintbrush was to cover previous abuse but i find it more likely that it was only put inside of her to make the crime scene as terrible looking as possible. No one would believe a parent could do that to a child.... its brutal! But if i were trying to make it look like someone broke in, id break a window from outside-in, destroy the entire house, flush all my jewelry down the toilet and leave her mangled body where she dropped.
Thats wayyyyy more believable than the cover up the ramseys created. They not only wanted an break in... but they wanted to go above and beyond to make it look that way

 

[andreww]

Like ive said before, maybe the paintbrush was to cover previous abuse but i find it more likely that it was only put inside of her to make the crime scene as terrible looking as possible. No one would believe a parent could do that to a child.... its brutal! But if i were trying to make it look like someone broke in, id break a window from outside-in, destroy the entire house, flush all my jewelry down the toilet and leave her mangled body where she dropped.
Thats wayyyyy more believable than the cover up the ramseys created. They not only wanted an break in... but they wanted to go above and beyond to make it look that way

You would have been caught.

 

[allysasaurus]

Well of course, but congratudolences to the ramseys for being better criminals than myself. They didnt have to tie a rope around her neck and sexually assault her to get the "intruder" idea across.

 

[UKGuy]

In your opinion.It's speculative to say that hair would have been out at root.She has substantially long hair which just from a cursory perception and in no way a factual assessment, would imo, withstand the twisting of the garrotte.However, if you could provide some data regarding your hair claim I'd love to read it.

The garotte was acting as an EA device imo. I disagree wholeheartedly that there was no EA device. The lack of blood in the head from the head blow but yet the fact she was dead requires a need to explain her death. It's logical to state, with some medical merit, that the EA device (which you say didn't exist but I say did) pressed on her vagal nerve and killed her. This would explain the lack of blood found from the head blow. If there was no strangulation, then the alternative theory is she suffered a head trauma. However, I believe the evidence better supports the notion that the strangulation came first thus the head blow was AFTER the strangulation.

Clearly certain pathologists, such as Mr Wecht disagree with your claim that no EA device was used. And being somewhat subservient to science and not proclaiming to know the truth, I therefore have to make an educated assessment of the theories.

I choose to believe what My Wecht says because to me, it makes the most sense.

Let_Forever_Be,
Pressure on the vagus nerve is not limited to an EA device. I reckon Kolar has it correct when he reckons JonBenet was manually strangled causing the abrasion lying beneath the ligature furrow, followed by a head blow, then a ligature asphyxiation. Separately she was assaulted internally by the paintbrush handle, so there was more going on here than EA device activity!

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[DeeDee249]

Im wondering where all these "abrasions" came from(scratches too).From the autopsy report, she had quite a few, rust colored. The head blow knocked her out, so she wasnt struggling around, does anyone know if these were I guess to say "fresh" abrasions, or could they have been older

Well there were NO scratches on her throat. Those marks that so many people assume are fingernail marks were identified by the coroner as petechial hemorrhages. There were some scratches on the back of her legs, I believe, that could have happened pulling her pants off and on in redressing her (assuming they were post-mortem). The large, red triangular mark on the front of her throat is commonly seen in strangulation victims and represents blood pooling under a pressure point. If you googled photos of strangulation victims, you'd see the same triangular abrasion. In fact, acandyrose had photos posted in a section called "Ruthee's pages" that shows side-by-side photos of the red mark on JB's throat compared to a strangulation victim that had been strangled with a scarf. Virtually identical. Not everything that used to be on ACR is still there, but this might be.
The skin becomes papery, and is described by the coroner as an "abrasion" but isn't truly from skin being rubbed away (as a true abrasion is). The same goes for the marks on her cheek and back, also labeled "abrasions", but were never tested to determine whether they also were true abrasions. The speculation of their being made by a stun gun would make them electric burns, not true abrasions. And being made by a snap, button, or something else that may have been pressed into her skin has not been something that was explored by the coroner.

 

[elannia]

Well there were NO scratches on her throat. Those marks that so many people assume are fingernail marks were identified by the coroner as petechial hemorrhages. There were some scratches on the back of her legs, I believe, that could have happened pulling her pants off and on in redressing her (assuming they were post-mortem). The large, red triangular mark on the front of her throat is commonly seen in strangulation victims and represents blood pooling under a pressure point. If you googled photos of strangulation victims, you'd see the same triangular abrasion. In fact, acandyrose had photos posted in a section called "Ruthee's pages" that shows side-by-side photos of the red mark on JB's throat compared to a strangulation victim that had been strangled with a scarf. Virtually identical. Not everything that used to be on ACR is still there, but this might be.
The skin becomes papery, and is described by the coroner as an "abrasion" but isn't truly from skin being rubbed away (as a true abrasion is). The same goes for the marks on her cheek and back, also labeled "abrasions", but were never tested to determine whether they also were true abrasions. The speculation of their being made by a stun gun would make them electric burns, not true abrasions. And being made by a snap, button, or something else that may have been pressed into her skin has not been something that was explored by the coroner.

Thanks DeeDee, the scratches on her legs was what I was talking about. Maybe came from PR's rings, if she was the one who redressed her? And the abrasion on her face is just awful. Do you have an idea what caused it?

 

[inspector rex]

Well there were NO scratches on her throat. Those marks that so many people assume are fingernail marks were identified by the coroner as petechial hemorrhages. There were some scratches on the back of her legs, I believe, that could have happened pulling her pants off and on in redressing her (assuming they were post-mortem). The large, red triangular mark on the front of her throat is commonly seen in strangulation victims and represents blood pooling under a pressure point. If you googled photos of strangulation victims, you'd see the same triangular abrasion. In fact, acandyrose had photos posted in a section called "Ruthee's pages" that shows side-by-side photos of the red mark on JB's throat compared to a strangulation victim that had been strangled with a scarf. Virtually identical. Not everything that used to be on ACR is still there, but this might be.
The skin becomes papery, and is described by the coroner as an "abrasion" but isn't truly from skin being rubbed away (as a true abrasion is). The same goes for the marks on her cheek and back, also labeled "abrasions", but were never tested to determine whether they also were true abrasions. The speculation of their being made by a stun gun would make them electric burns, not true abrasions. And being made by a snap, button, or something else that may have been pressed into her skin has not been something that was explored by the coroner.

Is there anything in the coroner's report to say whether in his opinion, these abrasions were sustained during the act of her murder, or even if they were 'fresh'?

Children are frequently falling and have minor scratches, bruises, etc.

JonBenet received a bicycle for Christmas, and I believe it may have been the first time she had ridden one, so I think it is feasible/likely that there would have been many falls and minor abrasions received that day.

 

[DeeDee249]

Is there anything in the coroner's report to say whether in his opinion, these abrasions were sustained during the act of her murder, or even if they were 'fresh'?

Children are frequently falling and have minor scratches, bruises, etc.

JonBenet received a bicycle for Christmas, and I believe it may have been the first time she had ridden one, so I think it is feasible/likely that there would have been many falls and minor abrasions received that day.

Not as far as I know. I thought of her riding her bike that day, too. Her body did not show any bruises that would be consistent with falling off her bike, but a scrape to the back of the leg could still have happened.
I know there are ways for a coroner to determine whether injuries are made postmortem or not, but I don't know if his examination involved that.

 

[inspector rex]

Not as far as I know. I thought of her riding her bike that day, too. Her body did not show any bruises that would be consistent with falling off her bike, but a scrape to the back of the leg could still have happened.
I know there are ways for a coroner to determine whether injuries are made postmortem or not, but I don't know if his examination involved that.

Yes I think it would be a mistake to assume everything that was found had occurred due to or in the process of her murder and try to fit it to a theory of the crime.
I wasn't suggesting the marks were made postmortem but actually either earlier on in the day or even prior to the 25th.
Unless he described as 'a partly healed abrasion', we have no way of knowing the age of the abrasion and if it is relevant.

 

[BBB167893]

Well of course, but congratudolences to the ramseys for being better criminals than myself. They didnt have to tie a rope around her neck and sexually assault her to get the "intruder" idea across.

Hey, I've only said it a million times, allysasaurus: they weren't better criminals, they just had better lawyers. Plus, they were lucky.

 

[allysasaurus]

Eenie meenie miney MONEY!

 

[Prahasaurus]

A wife undergoing cancer treatment, a daughter dressed up to look much older, and in sexually revealing outfits...

The short answer is I don't know who molested/abused JBR. But if we want to discuss statistics, I think it's clear who was most likely abusing her.

 

[icedtea4me]

A wife undergoing cancer treatment, a daughter dressed up to look much older, and in sexually revealing outfits...

The short answer is I don't know who molested/abused JBR. But if we want to discuss statistics, I think it's clear who was most likely abusing her.

From the 1996 Christmas letter Patsy wrote: He and his crew were under way in the Port Huron to Mackinac Island yacht race in July [on the Miss America], but had to pull out mid way due to lack of wind. (Can you believe that?) But, his real love is the new 'old looking' boat, Grand Season, which he spent months designing.

Miss America = Patsy = wind is out of her sails
new 'old looking' boat = young girl made to look older = JonBenet
(From Dr. Hodge's book A Mother Gone Bad)

 

[OliviaG1996]

From the 1996 Christmas letter Patsy wrote: He and his crew were under way in the Port Huron to Mackinac Island yacht race in July [on the Miss America], but had to pull out mid way due to lack of wind. (Can you believe that?) But, his real love is the new 'old looking' boat, Grand Season, which he spent months designing.

Miss America = Patsy = wind is out of her sails
new 'old looking' boat = young girl made to look older = JonBenet
(From Dr. Hodge's book A Mother Gone Bad)

BBM: I can't believe she wrote that. Either I have a dirty mind or Patsy didn't proofread. Is that normal sailing jargon?

I really want to buy Dr. Hodge's book. It sounds really good from the excerpts I've read.

 

[DeeDee249]

BBM: I can't believe she wrote that. Either I have a dirty mind or Patsy didn't proofread. Is that normal sailing jargon?

I really want to buy Dr. Hodge's book. It sounds really good from the excerpts I've read.

Sorry. I just don't see any innuendo in what she wrote, sexual or otherwise.

 

[dew-drop]

BBM: I can't believe she wrote that. Either I have a dirty mind or Patsy didn't proofread. Is that normal sailing jargon?

.

YES, pulling out of the race bc of lack of wind is typical sailing jargon.