GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #1

[Ausgirl]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Man-claims-sister-obsessed-occult-figure.html

Omg that article, what trash. Wowser journalism at its best.

AW's brother sounds just so bewildered, poor guy. Couple things I noticed:

- He says A is a quiet type, didn't talk much about school.
- the 'she'll be on lockdown' comment - family word for 'grounded forever' maybe?
- Brother says there were no signs, but he's been away for a while as well.
- parents aren't talking much about what happened.

I just got the feeling that if there was an issue, it was with communication in general, lots of not-talking going on there.

The G family looks pretty much like all my grown-up metalhead/goth friends. Happy, relaxed, creative people. Loving. Lots of pride in the kids. They seem pretty engaged with MG and each other.

I mean, who knows, I'm seeing through the veil of this crappy article. But to me, I'm not seeing that lack of smile in the eyes that often goes with domestic abuse or chronic unhappiness.

I believe we'll learn a lot more about these two girls by examining other crimes where a pair of kids has teamed up, like they did. I'm seeing many signs that are very typical of these pairs:

-- someone rightly mentioned upthread about the fact there always seem to be a dominant one. Yup, but also often a binary of one extrovert, one introvert, and it's not always the extrovert who has the final say. I'm guessing AW is the introvert.

-- obsessive thinking is another trait.

-- indistinct boundaries between a pair. By this I mean, not a romantic attachment, but something possibly deeper, like the 'other' is an extension of the self. Obsession with each other.

-- a goal that must be reached. I've seen this in a few cases, I think it goes hand in hand with obsessive thinking.

-- Little forward planning. It's all about the goal, then the plans drop off into nothing or hyper-fantasy. Not much in the way of contingency plans, getaways, etc. Just a reflection of the immature mind, I think.


I see this in the 'Heavenly Creatures' girls, Leopold and Loeb, and to some extent the Jamie Bulger killers but there, I have always had suspicions that one or both boys had been molested at some point and the later child *advertiser censored* charge just backed that right up, so perhaps that was also a Mary Bell type rage-deflection scenario, it fits with the sexual sadism inflicted on little Jamie.

Those are the cases off the top of my head, there's others I would like to dig up and explore for commonalities though.


I've seen this negative binary at work with my daughter and her best friend. I am just glad I raised my girl to think for herself, but for a little while there I saw the signs that the negativity of one fed that of the other, and the danger of that spiral forming. So, so glad I nipped that in the bud and my daughter was self-possessed enough to agree with that decision.

I'm curious as to whether any WS'ers have experiences this on any level, kids that are just not good news in each other's company while being relatively good kids on their own. I think it's not an uncommon thing, but with certain kids flares up into.. things like this crime.

 

[Ausgirl]

Hoshizora, glad you joined in! And yes several people have mentioned Skylar's case, I am actually reading the thread tonight. I'll be very interested in the dynamic there, for sure.

If the blonde is the one that is being spoken about as the intelligent one, what if she sees/knows that the brunette will do what ever I tell her, and what if the brunette fell for the story of slender being real by the person she admires most, and that in the name of slender and for slender we have to do this. idk But one thing I do know is that three is a crowd. I know that growing up three never played well together. jmo

Elley Mae, you've put very clearly in your post my own line of thinking on how the pair may have functioned as a team. The new article linked above really suggests this might be so.

 

[Elley Mae]

Mark Wegner, the principal of the school the girls attended, told ABC News that school officials were stunned by news of the stabbing.

“They were good kids. There wasn’t any kind of issues, any problems with discipline, anything like that,” Wegner said. “There was nothing that was on the radar for any issues at all here at the school.”

http://abcnews.go.com/US/girl-slender-man-attack-improves-questions-remain/story?id=24003159

 

[Sonya610]

I don't like bullying behavior at all. And that is how I view sleuthing innocent people who have done nothing and then using what is "Found" (musical tastes/420) to paint them in a negative light. Going as far as to say..."the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" in relation to a horrific attempted murder. The comments implied that the parents taste in "goth", music, and 420 somehow created a little sociopathic murderer and that they were no better. Without knowing a thing about them.

In my opinon, that is rude and cruel. And yes somehow, carries an air of superiority.

IMO the tastes in music and mj use are not that big of a deal.

The father having "skull" avatar and supposedly REPOSTING one of his daughters creepypasta stories does bring up questions. Were these girls saying/doing things that would strike most folks as odd/disturbing but these parents overlooked it because it seemed to reflected their OWN interest in the macabre?

Also I have known a lot of folks that were into very "dark" stuff online. Of course some of the folks had kids but I can assure you that the kids were NOT aware of their parents online activities or personas (in the vast majority of cases the wives weren't aware either..lol).

By reposting his daughters stories (and identifying them as his daughters, which means folks could google and even reach out to the 12 year old girl if she also posted the stories online) I have to question if the parents had very "vague" boundaries online and otherwise and the kid could have been exposed to a bit too much OR odd behavior was overlooked by the parents.

 

[Elley Mae]

The girls ultimately decided to carry out the attack in the park while playing a game of hide-and-seek.

"As they left for the park ... (the victim) was walking in front of them and G lifted up the left side of her white jacket and displayed the knife tucked in her waistband," the complaint says. "W stated she gave G a look with wide eyes and, when asked what that meant, W stated, 'I thought, dear god, this was really happening.' "

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/04/justice/wisconsin-stabbing/

It would appear that W did not know that it was going to happen until the knife was displayed. jmo

 

[Elley Mae]

“She was cool until 4th grade:” Classmate talks about 12-year-old stabbing suspect

http://fox6now.com/2014/06/04/she-was-cool-until-4th-grade-classmate-talks-about-stabbing-suspect/

“I met her in kindergarten. She was cool until fourth grade when she acted weirdish,” said the classmate. “As she talked about more suicidal things and she was, ‘Slenderman was coming to get all of us.’ She was a part of Slenderman’s tribe or something.”

 

[Ausgirl]

Because the parents' culture is my own culture, and has been so pretty much all my life, I can say that exposure to dark imagery does not automatically predispose kids to violence. My subcultures, the horror crowd, the metal and goth crowd, are the -least- violent or miserable groups of people I've met. Their kids are happy and love barbies and MLPs as much as Halloween images. It just doesn't wash with me at all that the parents are a bad influence here via art and imagery that isn't rainbows and unicorns.

What makes more sense to me is some kids will pick up anything around them that bolsters a sense of 'specialness' or personal power, and that can turn very nasty. You can see it in unbalanced people who've grown in Christian homes, latching onto the blood and fire and holy vengeance themes rather than the love and peace aspects of the religion. Or the morbid death-ideation of the crucifixon and resurrection.

In MG's parents, I see them being proud of their daughter's creativity. It's no more violent than boys playing war games, idealising the military's use of weapons to kill, or a dad being proud of the kid's ability to kill and skin animals on a hunt. But some people grasp the aspects of the military or the hunting culture that aren't so positive and use that to feed their negative fantasies.

Just stuff to consider before the bonfires get blazing.

 

[Spice]

What makes more sense to me is some kids will pick up anything around them that bolsters a sense of 'specialness' or personal power, and that can turn very nasty. You can see it in unbalanced people who've grown in Christian homes, latching onto the blood and fire and holy vengeance themes rather than the love and peace aspects of the religion. Or the morbid death-ideation of the crucifixon and resurrection.

In MG's parents, I see them being proud of their daughter's creativity. It's no more violent than boys playing war games, idealising the military, or a dad being proud of the kid's ability to kill and skin animals on a hunt. But some people grasp the aspects of the military or the hunting culture that aren't so positive and use that to feed their negative fantasies.

Such important points that speak to so many things about what we deem violent and scary and what we don't and how we tend to cherry pick in the process of what is "dangerous" and unhealthy and what isn't.

Thank you for saying what I was thinking and saying it better than I could.

 

[tlcya]

do we know when the court will rule on the motion of atty Cotton to get hos client moved to juvenile venue? has any hearing been set on that matter as yet?

 

[tlcya]

The classmate says she once saw "M" with a sledgehammer.

“I remember her holding it and saying that this is a weapon and I can do anything with it. I kind of stayed my distance when she showed me the sledgehammer.”

http://fox6now.com/2014/06/04/she-was-cool-until-4th-grade-classmate-talks-about-stabbing-suspect/

NOTE: accused is named inthe article. I replaced with initial.

 

[Ausgirl]

Forensic psychologists weigh in


Forensic psychologists who specialize in juvenile crimes say as the investigation continues, additional information will likely surface that could help further explain the motivations behind the stabbing. And that information could likely extend far beyond the girls' obsession with Slender Man, as described in the criminal complaint.

Robert Kinscherff, senior associate at the National Center for Mental Health and Juvenile Justice, said that in the few similar cases that exist historically worldwide, the suspects' relationship with each other was a key component.

"When you think back to being 12 or 13, relationships are intense," Kinscherff said.

And it's that intensity, developed in isolation — and without oversight or moderation — that in rare cases may lead to extreme behaviors. The children feed off each other's thoughts and reaffirm each other's increasingly unrealistic appraisal of the world.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/...-mental-evaluation-b99283879z1-261736551.html


Just to add re the bolded part - it can jolly well happen in plain sight and -with- moderation as well, just there's a better chance that a parent who's in tune with their kids will pick up on it. Also, the very nature of these binaries is --secretive-- so they can be very hard to see until there's actual and obvious negative effects or consequences.

In my experience the warning signs are - exclusive friendships, very small and tight-knit cliques -- a trio where one is picked on or the underdog or left out a lot -- wanting excess "privacy" to the point of isolation (I believe in affording kids private space if they earn it, but I am talking sudden demands for closed doors, excessive anger issues over it etc) -- obsessional thinking shared with another (mutual hatreds especially) -- levels of disrespect or bad behaviour which escalates with more time spent together

 

[Spice]

And it's that intensity, developed in isolation — and without oversight or moderation — that in rare cases may lead to extreme behaviors. The children feed off each other's thoughts and reaffirm each other's increasingly unrealistic appraisal of the world.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/...-mental-evaluation-b99283879z1-261736551.html

Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris did exactly that.

 

[blue22]

I'd actually like to see the studies blue22 mentions.

But yes, they can. "Fixed" is a bad term for it, but I do think there's a chance they could be rehabilitated and come out of this whole, healthy people once their jail time is up.

Kids more messed up than these two have committed more grisly crimes and done just that, I have as yet seen no evidence to suggest these girls could not, in time and with the proper help, do the same. We can only hope it's so, because one day they --will-- be walking around free again.


momrid6, I bet you're just so proud of those astute, clear-minded kids of yours!!!! Please tell them "good thinking!!" from me, way over here in Australia. Especially that last comment, from over your shoulder. Incredible. Good one, guys. I agree, that is very very possible.

I posted ages ago that I think there's a chance the Slendy story is a construct (I will add: likely based in some truth) to cover a real motive, whether that be jealousy (it usually is with girls this age) or some other mundane motivation.

That, or the blonde girl is seriously, seriously delusional and her brunette pal has a massive girl-crush and will do anything to impress her (as happens, sometimes, but I think that's likely the case, whatever the truth is about the other one). But you think somebody would've noticed that? Some time?

I've gone to sleep since I last looked at this thread. Did I mention studies about something?

Lol, I seriously can't remember.

 

[tresptip]

In my opinion its a genetic personality or mental defect that caused these two to decide to plot and carry out a murder which to me makes them very dangerous.Maybe there might be medication that could help them, but I would not risk peoples lives on it.Meds could eventually stop working,or they could simply stop taking the meds.I feel they should be put away in a facility and kept under constant supervision.

 

[Ausgirl]

Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris did exactly that.

Now there's a category of negative binary I had not considered. herpderp.

Thanks!

 

[AnaTeresa]

Exactly. Of Course their Lawyer is crying mental illness, how else to save them from prison.

Having a mental illness doesn't "save" someone from prison. For many people with mental illnesses, such a diagnosis can incarcerate them far longer than the sentence they would receive.

The juvenile I mentioned upthread in a similar situation to this was sentenced for treatment at a secure, intensive inpatient facility. The juvenile will be there for far, far longer than s/he would have been in juvenile detention given his/her age. That's why we lobbied hard to keep the case in juvenile court, because this child desperately needed mental health treatment. A longer sentence like this was in his/her best interests. If s/he had been sentenced as an adult, s/he would have been sent to adult prison, isolated from the adults, and received little to no mental health treatment.

For adults, if they are not competent to stand trial, they are held at a mental health facility in an attempt to restore them to competency. From what I've seen, the court will come back to the matter in a year. Sometimes it takes longer. Plus, if the defendant is not competent, that's not a get out of jail free card. You can be locked in a secure facility if you're not competent, with no set release date.

Mental health issues are real - they are not some trumped up excuse or a bid to get off without punishment. In many cases, a person with a mental illness with spend longer incarcerated, either in jail or a mental health facility, than would a mentally sound person.

 

[AnaTeresa]

I get the feeling there's something of a disconnect between "understanding the cause" and "making excuses".

I haven't seen one single poster say "ooh poor kiddies, I hope they get off scot free". So I don't understand why all the hooplah about it.

Is it because juvenile courts don't hand out long sentences? Are there not juvenile facilities that are spartan enough to serve as punishment cells for a crime this heinous?

Why is trying them in juvie court so strenuously associated with 'special treatment' and unsuitable sentences? Would they be automatically ejected from all state care once they turn 18?

I am genuinely asking these things, as it all seems a bit odd to be arguing things that aren't actually being argued, that I can see. Maybe I'm just not seeing it?

It may vary by state. In my state, you're not automatically ejected from state care at eighteen; a juvenile defendant can be held until the age of twenty-one. For some sex offenders, some punishments can extend past the age of twenty-one.

And then there are mental health issues. As I posted upthread, if a court is sentencing a juvenile for treatment at a mental health facility, the court can sentence them for "treatment" - which leaves the length of time at the discretion of the facility. This can be far, far longer than regular juvenile detention. However, it does have to be paid for by private insurance or the parents' funds - the state simply doesn't have the resources for this type of treatment. In my state, there's hardly any beds for acute treatment, much less long term, locked facilities. But if the family has the money to afford it, their child can be incarcerated longer and actually get the treatment s/he needs to be able to effectively reintegrate into society.

 

[AnaTeresa]

Actually, juveniles get more rights in adult court. They aren't guaranteed a lot of things in juvenile court. I'm not saying either way is right, but I actually think they will get a more adequate mental health evaluation being tried as adults. That's really important, I think. Especially, because in offending pairs, one is often pushing the other into this.

This may vary by state, but even if a juvenile has more "rights" in adult court, the emphasis in adult court is on punishment and not rehabilitation. There's very little mental health treatment in adult court - most states don't have the money for it, no facilities, long waiting lists, etc. etc. There's far more flexibility in sentencing a juvenile as well, thus enabling the court to tailor punishment and rehabilitation efforts for the specific individual.

For teens with mental illness, at least in my state, juvenile courts are the preferred way to go, particularly if the family has the resources to be able to pay for private treatment.

 

[blue22]

This may vary by state, but even if a juvenile has more "rights" in adult court, the emphasis in adult court is on punishment and not rehabilitation. There's very little mental health treatment in adult court - most states don't have the money for it, no facilities, long waiting lists, etc. etc. There's far more flexibility in sentencing a juvenile as well, thus enabling the court to tailor punishment and rehabilitation efforts for the specific individual.

For teens with mental illness, at least in my state, juvenile courts are the preferred way to go, particularly if the family has the resources to be able to pay for private treatment.

I was meaning as far as the court proceedings go, not the detainment. Juveniles aren't even always given attorneys in juvenile proceedings. The due process is much different. They are given less opportunities for a defense. The mental health evaluation is not as in depth.

I think their best case scenario is to have this reassigned from adult to juvenile court. While this is an adult court, they get a plethora of legal considerations they don't get in juvenile court. That can benefit them in the meantime.

With that said, I would be surprised if this was handled in juvenile court. I'm sure they both have mental issues, but this seems particularly cold blooded, and even an enjoyment killing. I honestly don't think they will find any incredibly severe mental situations going on. Perhaps, I could see one girl being tried as a juvenile. But whoever was the leader in this, I see being tried as an adult.

Of course, I could be completely wrong. Just MOO

 

[Ausgirl]

Snipped this, respectfully.

Look, here's the issue with the word evil. In your mind, you seem to have assigned it a very simplistic meaning. Not putting words into your mouth here, just paraphrasing what you said. From my standpoint, it's something immensely complex and layered.

rsbm for brevity

What I was actually addressing here is the idea that the girls themselves are evil, or that 'evil' (the noun) is somehow a factor. I think 'evil' is a great adjective to describe a horrible act. But a noun - a thing in its own right, in the religious sense - it makes zilch sense to me and holds no value to me in any sensible discussion of criminal behaviour. So I hope that's clear now.

Do I think all killers are mentally ill? Well, I'm not an idiot, so.. no.

It's just too tediously redundant to go into a long list of very obvious examples of other, more mundane reasons people kill. I'm pretty sure we're all aware of those. Not one of which I would put down to anyone being inherently "evil". Though some of their actions may certainly earn the adjective.