GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #2

[ICS]

Both girls' attorneys AND THE ATTORNEY FOR THE STATE (Szczupakiewicz) are concerned about how the sensational publicity could affect the outcome of a trial:

From the court records (BBM):

Additional Text:

Attorney Anthony Cotton by phone. Defendant Morgan Geyser did not appear. Ted S. Szczupakiewicz and Kevin Osborne appeared for the State of Wisconsin. Atty. Smith files motion in co-defendant's case. Argument by Atty. Smith. Atty. Cotton and Atty. Szczupakiewicz join in the request to go back to oral ruling regarding release of interviews. Additional statements by Atty. McMahon. Statements by the court. Atty. McMahon addresses the pre-trial publicity and being able to find an unbias jury if the case remains in adult court. Atty. Cotton and Szczupakiewicz join in Atty. McMahon's concerns. Court denies motion to prevent disclosure of defendant's interviews for reasons stated on the record.

 

[Ausgirl]

IMO their preferences do indicate something -- like mental illness.

To me (who's been part of a unicorn-free subculture since grade school), this seems a lot like a moral judgement is all. Lots of kids prefer darker fantasies and don't kill anyone.

I do agree that their behaviour and beliefs were bizarre, but that's the mental illness. Not the preferences themselves. The way some psychotic people over-focus on Christian beliefs, and use those as platform from which to kill. It's not about the preference. They're just crazy.

 

[gitana1]

I saw that episode too. However I still think it stinks that her name continues to come up while the little monsters who tried to kill her are not.

Their names have been public since the start.

ALWAYS MOO

Technically, she was not the victim of SA so I get that the media can use her name. I just wish they wouldn't. Then if wishes were horses we'd all ride in style.

I don't see the problem. This girl is a heroic survivor and an inspiration. What does she have to be ashamed of? And why on earth would we want to publicize the names of her murderers?

You want to know why we have so many mass murderers in America? People who go on gun rampages at schools and theaters and political events? Because we give them celebrity status. We give them notoriety. We splash huge photos of their faces everywhere and repeat their names like mantras. Their victims become all but forgotten but the names of the murderers live on forever.

That only serves to incite other, troubled and delusional misfits looking to "make a name for themselves" through some horrific act.

Please, I don't get this.

 

[LinasK]

I just watched a brand new 20/20 about this case. I am so happy Payton has recovered and that this case was only attempted murder, and that those little witches did not succeed!!! Morgan was clearly the ringleader of the two and is a budding psychopath. Anissa I think has a conscience and was following her. I hope they get 60 years as this was clearly premeditated. I saw the interview tapes. They both know right from wrong and know Slenderman is fictional.
I'd like to know where Morgan & Anissa's parents were when all this was going on and why they let 12-year-olds have unlimited internet access with no supervision.

 

[LinasK]

Kudos to Ausgirl for an awesome post. You outlined a simple and believable explanation of what happened which I find totally compelling. A couple of things you said reminded me of my own experiences: how rapidly a close friendship can turn into something really unpleasant. And the incredibly dark - but not at all unusual - thoughts and deeds of kids at that age.

I think the most frightening aspect of this case is the apparent "ordinariness" of the circumstances. Everyone said they were capable students from good families, no history of criminal behavior, etc, etc. And so one thinks: "if those kids could do that, could kids here do that to my child", or "could my child do that to another kid"? And the answer, IMO, is without doubt "yes", given the appropriate unfortunate set of circumstances:

1. Psychotic behavior (losing touch with what is and isn't real) is a factor in many different mental illnesses. Perhaps the incident with MG and the mallet ("I have a weapon and I can do anything I want with it") was an early indication of this. Of course, we don't know if this led to any psychiatric evaluation/treatment, or whether it was seen to be a bizarre but isolated incident that didn't merit further action.

2. The transition from elementary (primary) education brings about huge changes in what may have been solid friendships. PL seems to be just what she should be at 12 - a child. She still enjoyed playing with her American Girl dolls (as did MG), volunteered at the animal shelter, and was in no way involved or interested in the disturbing world of Creepy Pasta and the like. I totally agree with Ausgirl's hypothesis: new cool friend comes along who shares MG's interests, and suddenly PL doesn't match up. I've seen the controlling behavior that comes of scorn or contempt, and the sadness and bewilderment of the other party who no longer makes the grade. And that person tries to make it right again, but just makes the situation (and the contempt) worse.

I think this resolves my question about "why PL"? The answer is the utter contempt that kids that age can show toward one another. It wouldn't be a problem to kill her because she was "lame" so it didn't matter. A horrific prior example of this kind of cruelty was seen in the murder of 12 year-old Shanda Sharer by 4 girls aged 15 - 17. This was an act that was the epitome of appalling. The perpetrators said it was "pure peer pressure".

This WAS bullying. MG was taunting PL online only 4 weeks before the attack, mocking her love of Katy Perry, and calling her "mainstream". The kind of cruelty we're talking about here would have no problem with the duplicity of inviting the victim to a sleepover expressly to kill her, or pretending they were going to get help after the stabbing.

3. The toxic friendship. Again, Ausgirl nailed this I think, sadly from her own experiences within her family. AW apparently went elsewhere to elementary school, and was starting a Middle School in which she may have had no existing friends. She would have seen MG daily on the school bus, as they lived in the same townhouse complex. There were a number of negative events in her recent past (which I won't enumerate here), which would very likely have made her escape into the virtual world to escape the real one. I can only imagine that her friendship with MG, who not only shared her interests, but also lived a few yards away, may have seemed incredibly important.

There was a clue to the dynamic between the girls right before the stabbing, when MG said "I'm not going to until you tell me to...". At first, I thought this was an attempt to offload some of the blame, but now I think it was because MG knew it was wrong and needed the "push" from AW.

4. The game that went too far. AW - obviously - should have spoken to someone immediately about MG's suggestion that they kill PL. She must have seen how important this was to MG, although I'll bet she didn't REALLY think it would ever happen. But she would (and did) do anything to preserve/strengthen their friendship. She must have believed that telling someone about MG's suggestion would be the end of their friendship... and maybe MG wasn't serious. But she probably didn't know at that point that MG was mentally unstable and REALLY was serious. And so it continued with MG believing it to be a real plan and AW not having the strength to end it. This secret planning became the core of their friendship, and maybe that's why there was no thought of "later"... the plan would be done with. What would hold them together? And if the plan wasn't real - did that mean the friendship wasn't real either?

5. They are NOT adults. If they had been... this would not have happened. This is the supreme irony in trying them as adults: they are being tried as adults for a crime that adults in as similar as they could be circumstances would not have committed. This isn't an adult crime - it's a child crime!

I think that MG really did believe Slender Man to be real. PL certainly thought she did in a conversation with her mother "...MG knows he is real...". I also think there must have been a grandiose aspect to her symptoms - she had exclusive connections with various characters that others did not have... and she was not bound by the same rules. Her classmates commented on her aloofness in a NY Times article. I think that her symptoms must have been greatly exacerbated by the contemplation of what she was planning. Living in a mythical world freed her of the boundaries of the real one, and provided a feeling of great power.

There is no one clear "reason" that this happened, but a series of contributing factors. None of them are exclusive to these two girls. This is a contentious proposition, because it means that unlikely though it is, the same thing could happen again... without the adults involved recognizing the signs before its too late. And that's not what people want to believe.

BBM. Strongly disagree. This is an adult crime. No good reason, innocent victim. 1mm closer and Payton would have died according to the surgeon that operated on her heart. They were that close to severing her Carotid Artery and she would have had a heart attack and bled to death. There were also 19 stab wounds. This was intentional. They admitted on the interrogation tapes they wanted Payton to die. Please don't make excuses for these two vicious near-murderers. I don't want them back in society when they're only 25!!!

 

[blefuscu]

BBM. Strongly disagree. This is an adult crime. No good reason, innocent victim. 1mm closer and Payton would have died according to the surgeon that operated on her heart. They were that close to severing her Carotid Artery and she would have had a heart attack and bled to death. There were also 19 stab wounds. This was intentional. They admitted on the interrogation tapes they wanted Payton to die. Please don't make excuses for these two vicious near-murderers. I don't want them back in society when they're only 25!!!

With respect, MG has been diagnosed with a psychotic illness. This child was and is very sick. She is, by definition of the illness, unable to distinguish reality from fantasy. What has happened to the victim is obviously horrific, but unless you have experienced psychosis (which I have) you can't understand what a scary thing it is. She totally believes in Slenderman. She could very well be found unfit to stand trial. Calling her a "little witch" is unfair. It could well be that if she was not so unwell then she would never have done this. Mental illness is a terrible thing, especially in children.

 

[LinasK]

With respect, MG has been diagnosed with a psychotic illness. This child was and is very sick. She is, by definition of the illness, unable to distinguish reality from fantasy. What has happened to the victim is obviously horrific, but unless you have experienced psychosis (which I have) you can't understand what a scary thing it is. She totally believes in Slenderman. She could very well be found unfit to stand trial. Calling her a "little witch" is unfair. It could well be that if she was not so unwell then she would never have done this. Mental illness is a terrible thing, especially in children.

I watched both their interview tapes with police. Morgan and Anissa knew they'd never met Slenderman in real life and knew he wasn't real. Morgan may have been psychotic at the time of the crime, but she knew right from wrong, and she knew she was sacrificing her former "best friend". She even said, "I'm sorry" to her as she was stabbing Payton. They also chose to lie to Payton that they were going for help and left her there to die. Sorry, but I'm not buying an insanity defense!!!:snooty:

 

[blefuscu]

I watched both their interview tapes with police. Morgan and Anissa knew they'd never met Slenderman in real life and knew he wasn't real. Morgan may have been psychotic at the time of the crime, but she knew right from wrong, and she knew she was sacrificing her former "best friend". She even said, "I'm sorry" to her as she was stabbing Payton. They also chose to lie to Payton that they were going for help and left her there to die. Sorry, but I'm not buying an insanity defense!!!:snooty:

I think the psychiatrists who assess MG will be able to assess her mental competency better than we can.

 

[ICS]

I think the psychiatrists who assess MG will be able to assess her mental competency better than we can.

One of the psychiatrists that assessed MG happened to be the same psychiatrist that assessed Jeffrey Dahmer. Regardless of the concurring assessments of psychiatrists for the prosecution and defense, it's unlikely that an insanity defense would be mounted given the extremely low (~2%) success rate. Moreover, if it were successful, the term of confinement is no shorter than it would be otherwise - it would just spent in a secure mental facility, not a regular prison.

I cannot believe the amount of detail that has been publicized about this case before the defendants have even entered a plea. Not one but TWO 20/20 episodes, and the release of excerpts from the interrogations of MG and AW. Attorneys for prosecution and defense have registered their concerns about the potential for bias in potential jurors, but their concerns were dismissed. Is this "due process"?

 

[blefuscu]

I would hope that if MG is mentally unwell she gets the help she needs. I'd rather see her on a secure psychiatric ward getting treatment than in prison. I don't think a 12 year old who is not truly mentally unwell is going to fool repeated scrutiny of psychiatrist and mental health nurses.

 

[DexterMorgan]

The 2 suspects look like Velma and Daphney from Scooby Doo. Jinksy ; they should know Slenderman isn't real. Even Shaggy could have told them that.

 

[ICS]

Looking at the court records, the state has submitted their briefs for a Finding Of Probable Cause for both defendants (i.e. there is sufficient evidence to to support the given charge of attempted 1st degree intentional homicide).

Interestingly, the lawyer for MG submitted a brief in support of bind over under statute 940.45, which is felony Victim Intimidation to prevent a victim from testifying against a perpetrator of a crime. I don't see why that would even be applicable in this case unless there was an earlier, unreported attack on the victim, and MG had been trying to stop the victim from reporting that attack???

That's a tenuous theory without much evidence to back it up, but I can't think why else MG's lawyer would have submitted such a brief. I also feel certain that any prior attack would be known about now that the perpetrator is locked up.

 

[MyBelle]

I would hope that if MG is mentally unwell she gets the help she needs. I'd rather see her on a secure psychiatric ward getting treatment than in prison. I don't think a 12 year old who is not truly mentally unwell is going to fool repeated scrutiny of psychiatrist and mental health nurses.

Incarerated prisoners who are in need of mental health treatment go here:
Youth who are transferred to MJTC are selected by the staff of juvenile corrections institutions due to their failure to respond to the traditional rehabilitative programming provided in correctional institutions, nearly always because of their excessively violent and/or disruptive behavior.[1] While MJTC was not designed to treat psychopathy per se, many of the youth in the original treatment sample do have high levels of psychopathic traits.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendota_Juvenile_Treatment_Center_Program

 

[Softail]

I am hoping I can attend this trial.

I'll have to find it... probably on WISN, but apparently the defense has filed a motion to drop the charges.... lol

 

[blefuscu]

I would appreciate it if you could go. Would be a very interesting case to follow.

 

[Softail]

Lawyer argues for dismissal of charge in Slender Man case

An attorney for one of two Wisconsin girls accused of repeatedly stabbing a classmate and leaving her for dead has argued that the charge against her should be dismissed because she believed a fictional horror character called Slender Man would kill her family if they didn't attack their friend — a belief he said amounted to coercion.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...er-man-stabbing-wisconsin-20150227-story.html

 

[blue22]

Lawyer argues for dismissal of charge in Slender Man case

An attorney for one of two Wisconsin girls accused of repeatedly stabbing a classmate and leaving her for dead has argued that the charge against her should be dismissed because she believed a fictional horror character called Slender Man would kill her family if they didn't attack their friend — a belief he said amounted to coercion.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...er-man-stabbing-wisconsin-20150227-story.html

Oh lord. That's the silliest thing. Pleading insanity, sure. I get that. But...this is just not something I want our justice system to come to.

 

[angelainwi]

I am hoping I can attend this trial.

I'll have to find it... probably on WISN, but apparently the defense has filed a motion to drop the charges.... lol

The courthouse is 5 minutes from my house, I will most definitely attend if it goes to trial!

 

[Softail]

The courthouse is 5 minutes from my house, I will most definitely attend if it goes to trial!

Awesome! :great: It will depend what I have going on when it starts if I can go or not.

 

[Ausgirl]

Oh lord. That's the silliest thing.

Pretty desperate, isn't it. "Coercion" tho?? Coerced... by WHOM? is my next question. Her fellow accused? The internet?

Does anyone believe that either of these girls -actually- believed their families would die? I don't. I think MG might've had some blurry lines where reality is concerned, but not to that extent. And AW was along for the ride, with her new bff she 'won' by making sure the old bff was out of the picture.

I happen to think that you don't need to be delusional to be severely mentally ill. I think MG probably is, quite a bit moreso than AW - but AW's actions were not that of a healthy individual either. Though I wonder if her sickness is emotional, rather than mental.

And before anyone accuses -me- of "making excuses" for these kids (like anybody here has been, sheesh) - even if they get 25 years, they'll be out in time to have a life and a family and many years of freedom ahead. No matter what sentence they get, I hope they're treated like the sick children they actually are, so hopefully when they get out they're not a threat to anyone else.