Found Alive WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *Arrest* #43

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RSBM, BBM
I agree with absolutely every word you said here.

Jayme is the first case I followed on here, it hit hard for some reason. I read for quite awhile before I joined.
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If I am honest, I would fight for my children if accused, if I felt the facts were not right or I felt unfairly accused or railroaded, etc. BUT JP confessed. There is no denial here, there are no other factors we know of that might mitigate this, etc. HE HIMSELF confessed. As a parent in that situation, one then has to face the horror of what your child did and there is no denial.

I have said before and will again, I do give the father and the siblings credit, it has to be incredibly difficult to be in a room that one can probably feel the animosity towards their son. They face it and they face it as a family. They have a right to be there.
[...]

ETA: JMO.
Just wanted to address this. Confessions get thrown out/ challenged all the time and IIRC he entered a not guilty plea so he'll go to trial. I fear a motion to exclude the confession once the discovery process begins.
That leaves hard forensic evidence including electronics. I hope they have that.
Please don't put JC on the witness stand.

ETA:
Jones said the defense team will evaluate Patterson’s statements to determine whether they were given voluntarily and if they’re true. He cautioned that prosecutors have amassed 30 banker’s boxes full of evidence, but that the defense likely won’t receive any of it, let alone review it, until after Patterson’s Feb. 6 preliminary hearing.
Lawyers for suspect in Jayme Closs case doubt chances of fair trial in state – Twin Cities
 
I agree with absolutely every word you said here.

Jayme is the first case I followed on here, it hit hard for some reason. I read for quite awhile before I joined.

Remarking on Gacy's sister, Scott Peterson's mother, Casey Anthony, etc. I get entirely what you mean. I guess what one has to understand and most of us do is to them this is their child and they know them or perceive them differently than we do. I guess with Gacy's sister as you said, she remembers him as a brother. I can feel sympathy for the families and do oftentimes.

If I am honest, I would fight for my children if accused, if I felt the facts were not right or I felt unfairly accused or railroaded, etc. BUT JP confessed. There is no denial here, there are no other factors we know of that might mitigate this, etc. HE HIMSELF confessed. As a parent in that situation, one then has to face the horror of what your child did and there is no denial.

I have said before and will again, I do give the father and the siblings credit, it has to be incredibly difficult to be in a room that one can probably feel the animosity towards their son. They face it and they face it as a family. They have a right to be there.

I agree with you though--their son made them victims and their son made the Closses INNOCENT victims, no one did a dam*ed thing to JP, he did this to himself and to his family.

I try not to judge but I agree, quit trying to reach out. Normal grief with a natural death takes a long time to process, this will be far, far longer before I would think most are ready to hear a word from their family. I do not pretend to know and maybe I am wrong, not speaking for anyone, but that is what I would think... I sure would not be ready to hear from anyone in any way connected to JP.

ETA: JMO.
100 percent agreed!
 
RSBM, BBM
Just wanted to address this. Confessions get thrown out/ challenged all the time and IIRC he entered a not guilty plea so he'll go to trial. I fear a motion to exclude the confession once the discovery process begins.
That leaves hard forensic evidence including electronics. I hope they have that.
Please don't put JC on the witness stand.

ETA:
Lawyers for suspect in Jayme Closs case doubt chances of fair trial in state – Twin Cities
I would surprised if the defense didn't try to get the confession tossed. But, he also made the confession "I did it" as he was being arrested up in Gordon. So, IMO he had two distinct admissions of guilt and I believe that is going to be impossible honestly IMO.

LE has 'boxes of evidence" as per their statement. The gun used to kill JC & DC, the car and physical evidence gathered from it, ie Jayme in the trunk, etc. :( I agree having to have Jayme testify would be horrible and traumatic, but if it put the murderer of her dearly loved parents behind bars for LWOP, I believe she'd rise up again and be able to stand for them.

JMO
 
I would surprised if the defense didn't try to get the confession tossed. But, he also made the confession "I did it" as he was being arrested up in Gordon. So, IMO he had two distinct admissions of guilt and I believe that is going to be impossible honestly IMO.

LE has 'boxes of evidence" as per their statement. The gun used to kill JC & DC, the car and physical evidence gathered from it, ie Jayme in the trunk, etc. :( I agree having to have Jayme testify would be horrible and traumatic, but if it put the murderer of her dearly loved parents behind bars for LWOP, I believe she'd rise up again and be able to stand for them.

JMO
One of the earliest cases I followed was a teen who was abducted on her way home from school and held in a shipping container for 9 months. The perp released her because he was about to get arrested for counterfeiting. Her strength and resilience was inspiring and in the end he made a plea deal. He will will serve life on a sentence of 45 to 90 years even though he has a chance at parole after 45 years. Before the plea he was facing about 250 separate charges. She has recently come out publicly to speak about her ordeal.
If JP pleads guilty he will still serve life IMO because eligibility of parole is not a guarantee of freedom.
"Some people might call you a monster, but I've always looked at you as human," the victim said. "And I want you to know that even though life became a lot harder after that, I still forgive you."

As a judge sentenced him to 45-90 years in prison, she says she'll never look at sunshine the same way.

"I also just want to thank you for giving me my freedom back," the victim said.

The judge called this sentence "lenient" because Kibby will have the option of parole. The judge said if this case had gone to trial and Kibby was convicted he likely would not have had that option.
Prosecutors reveal disturbing details in Nathaniel Kibby case
 
After some long thought re PP his & family's expressions of love and regret/ sorrow for the Closs family, I began to wonder if the Dad is the only hope for convincing JP to agree to a plea deal. "We love you Son please do the right thing for everyone."
JMO

Agree 1000 percent.

Jake only talks to roughly 5 people on planet earth...it’s gonna take 2 of them or more to convince him to plead out... make it easier on closs family... help us out and we will visit.

On some level JP has to know if they go to trial and go over crime in detail.... what compassion love he has gotten will be lessened....

If he commits crime right after family event that upset him.. probably weird for JP, also emails/text to mom dad have to make him look like sociopath..

I hope no trial, and can’t see it, unless he’s just really detached, and would prefer additional chaos even if it hurts his own family.
 
IMO I believe JP wants a trial. He wants to hear about the ‘wonderful’ things he did, how he was able to get away with it all for weeks. He wants the world to know. He is proud much like BTK. I hope Jamie never has to testify, but there always is that chance. JP, never should see freedom again.
 
I would surprised if the defense didn't try to get the confession tossed. But, he also made the confession "I did it" as he was being arrested up in Gordon. So, IMO he had two distinct admissions of guilt and I believe that is going to be impossible honestly IMO.

LE has 'boxes of evidence" as per their statement. The gun used to kill JC & DC, the car and physical evidence gathered from it, ie Jayme in the trunk, etc. :( I agree having to have Jayme testify would be horrible and traumatic, but if it put the murderer of her dearly loved parents behind bars for LWOP, I believe she'd rise up again and be able to stand for them.

JMO

I hope that the defense team, along with the P family, are completely aware of the consequences of going to trial. JC will be able to destroy all doubts that anyone has about JP.

I, for one, would not relish being a defense counsel cross-examining this young girl. She would provide eye witness testimony of the brutal murder of her mom. Along with any details that she could/would share about her captivity.

I hope she won't need to, but I agree with your vision of JC rising up to the fiend. IMO that would be a slam dunk to this guy's vision of himself.
 
I would surprised if the defense didn't try to get the confession tossed. But, he also made the confession "I did it" as he was being arrested up in Gordon. So, IMO he had two distinct admissions of guilt and I believe that is going to be impossible honestly IMO.

LE has 'boxes of evidence" as per their statement. The gun used to kill JC & DC, the car and physical evidence gathered from it, ie Jayme in the trunk, etc. :( I agree having to have Jayme testify would be horrible and traumatic, but if it put the murderer of her dearly loved parents behind bars for LWOP, I believe she'd rise up again and be able to stand for them.

JMO
The confessions worry me. I think they were given before he was Mirandized.
 
The confessions worry me. I think they were given before he was Mirandized.
The only one that might be questionable is the "I did it". I believe one of lawyers on board talked about excited utterances or something IDR the exact details.

I find it hard to believe that LE/FBI would go into the interview room with JP and not legally and by the book dot every I and cross every T. They worked this case under excruciating pressure and media awareness for 88 days. I just don't see the likeliness of a problem with that one. JMO
 
Some of the most recent heinous murderers have had family present during hearings and trials.....
Casey Anthony, Scott Peterson, Chris Watts, Christian Rivera Mollie Tibbetts killer, the list goes on and on.

I even saw a recent interview type show with John Wayne Gacy's sister. I started watching so angry and predetermined in my mind to not really like her, to judge her, and to blame her for his actions. They would have to have known right!

By the end of the show, I had some compassion for the sister. Her quote was "I loved John as a brother, not as a murderer".

I guess my point here being, I loathe these killers as much or more than anyone, especially JP. I've never been so invested in a case as with Jayme. She touched a part of my heart and soul with her innocence and then with her strength and courage as she escaped. She gave many people a renewed Hope in general.

That said, IMO, JP's family legally has a right to be present in court. They have reached out to the Closs family and expressed sympathy. Okay once, twice pushing it. Now, attend out of love for your son, brother, etc. if you feel so inclined, but please keep the Closs name out of your mouths going forward. This is about justice for Jayme and her family, period.

JMO

You are speaking in the first part of your post about people who are not sociopathic serial killers who would likely kill again and again if they were released from prison if still living. ( Gacy, the person you go on to talk about, was a sociopathic serial killer who died in 1974).

The definition of a serial killer is a person who has deliberately and without provocation killed at least 2 people not related to him/ her and if not stopped, would likely keep on killing for therein lies the thrill.

The family member who could possibly be his victims are either the killer's first victims or he never goes back to the family as he's separated his current life from his past life except for maybe one fixation on a person who becomes the prototype for his victims, overwhelmingly complete strangers to the killer who likely share some physical traits ( gender, age, hair length or color or both, ethnicity) the killer was looking for.

Historically, a very few serial killers did have such a fixation on their mother, who likely also had a very obvious pathologically unhealthy need or control to some extent over the killer. This is not found in modern times, but when we were first learning about serial killers, we did find that some would have either a symbiotic attachment to their mother, or a reaction formation which manifested as looking like an attachment until the pathology of the killer evolved and he killed his mother, too.

The reason we do not see SKs hanging out at mommy's house is likely due to the easier ability in modern decades to travel long distances, to live on the streets or in the woods with the multitude of homeless people who are not serial killers, thus avoiding being arrested for a loitering charge, and to easily relocate to a different part of the country through our extremely improved network of corridor highways.
IMO, the overwhelming change is the mobility afforded by our extensive building of superhighways.

The killing at will of complete strangers is a deviant act and a compulsion which cannot be stopped by either the killer or society, not that any serial killers have actually ever wanted to stop killing- it is their reason for living. All we have to keep them from killing more people is to lock them up for life, or put them to death in states with the death penalty. They lost all moral values early in their lives, sometimes as children, usually as teens through a process we still do not completely understand ( or we likely could cure a budding sociopath)


J. Patterson, is, in my opinion, a sociopathic serial killer. He killed 2 innocent strangers in wanton disregard for their lives and likely would have killed their daughter had she not escaped.

All the people on your list,now that I look at it, killed a family member or members except Mollie's killer. Because of the relationships which existed, they were not killers who stalked a particular type of child, or adult and kills them and others, with the killings usually fitting into a pattern of behaviors.
Thus, they are not serial killers but are bad people, of course.
I would never ask any of them ' Why did you do this?" because I don't care why they did it, I care that they did it.

John Wayne Gacy AND his sisters endured extreme abuse in their childhood home together at the hands of their father. He was a violent alcoholic and while John was said to have a heart problem and was a " Mama's boy" , it's likely his sister or both sisters were treated just as badly as he was if not worse.
Therefore, it's likely the sister who came to his trial had her own psychological traumas related to their shared childhoods and could not separate HER childhood and likely, shared protection when John's pathological need to kill was being formed. John Gacy was absolutely a sociopathic serial killer.
His sister's life was likely not enhanced by any part of his trial, and he would not have cared if a busload of relatives showed up for his trials.
When we look at behaviors, we look at the cause and effect, and the payoff for each person. The cause of his sister likely attending his trials has already been discussed- a childhood bond due to their father's brutality. The payoff for attending was possibly a feeling that she'd " supported" him, but no, she didn't. The effect of her being there was ZERO. She was nothing to him. Absolutely nothing as in a blank piece of paper being blown in a vacant parking lot. I know this because it is the core lack of the ability to feel love or remorse, or pity or even fear that sets the sociopath apart from the rest of society and allows him to kill with reckless abandon.

Therefore, her presence was likely very harmful to her, because the evidence had to be brutally graphic, and her presence was absolutely a matter of total indifference to Gacy, as the sociopath cannot respond to positive emotions by others. They can use the other person or people as a means to their own end of either killing, period.

Her presence was her choice but it was a choice tied up in memories of him as a child, not the understanding that he stopped having ( or never had) any positive responses to her or any other person in his life, except maybe his mother, which is a feature of serial killers.

She missed or grieved for a child she loved, but that childlike behavior disintegrated into sadistic killing early in his life and it's likely she never saw him in his adult killing years. Thus, a true family relationship did NOT exist except in her memories in her mind. It was not the reality of the situation.

I have pity for the innocent families who likely do not understand what monstrous thoughts and actions arise out of the killer's psyche and cannot be stopped except incarceration for the remainder of the killer's life, because some people lack the ability to look at the person as they actually are, not as a family member remembers them in childhood.

I still believe that attempts by a family member to connect with a sociopathic killer who's been caught and is facing trial or has been sentenced and is incarcerated for life ( or put to death in states which have and use the DP) are both futile and likely, emotionally hurtful for anyone who tries ( those who cannot be used by the sociopathic killer from prison for any reason. We know that some serial killers have misused superficial attempts to connect with them from their prisons). If the woman who writes to the Ted Bundys in the world truly understood what that man would do to her if he had her alone for 10 minutes, no letters or cards would be sent unless she's seriously mentally ill or otherwise lacks the ability to make rational decisions using even basic judgment.
 
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"The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference."

Understanding what the above statement of truth means is one of the most important things I ever learned.
The events as they happened are outlined well here for us to keep perspective on what JP has confessed to, that we know of, which is much less than the sum total of his crimes against the Closs family, the survivor Jayme, only 13 years old, 5 feet tall, and weighing 100 pounds.

It's been asked here" Well, how would you feel/ react if it were your child?" and the automatic response has been " Appalled at what he's done but would love and support him."

Everyone's entitled to set their own parameters regarding what evil in a mind and soul they will accept.
I would choose indifference regarding the man I once gave birth to from the moment the evidence made it clear, and I was sure he'd murdered two innocent parents in cold blood and sadistically kidnapped, held and likely did horrible things to their child.. I would not support anything about him if he held a little girl captive for 88 days and only stopped because she escaped from him. I would never speak his name again. Total indifference. Whether he lived or died would no longer matter to me because of the lives he'd taken. I am not co-dependent and I am not an enabler of evil.

Birth is an event of chance, relationships ending are a matter of choice which, to me, far outweigh the chance that a killer was born because of me.We can't choose what an adult does, but we can choose how respond after it reaches the maximum of evil, the level of hurting, murdering others.

The only regrets I'd have was that he was ever born, because he was raised with an abundance of love shown and proven to him. He was in a stable home without any deprivation or violence. My deep sympathy and sorrow would only be for his victims. I'd be as much of a victim advocate for them as any other person.

He would be dead to me for the rest of his days on earth, because we are quick to cut out physical cancer but somehow feel a totally diseased mind and soul deserves different treatment if there is a genetic link to that person. I disagree. .
JP likely has never loved anyone in his life once he was old enough to choose to love or not love. I don't blame his parent or parents for loving him, nor his siblings. That's their choice, and not mine to judge. One day, I think feelings may change, like they do for many relatives of sadistic killers.

If love and concern could rehabilitate the mind of a sociopathic killer or invoke one iota of change in the most violent of all criminals, then love could rehabilitate robbers, thieves, those who wounded victims but didn't manage to kill them. Our prisons would be emptied if forgiveness, acceptance and love were all it took to rehabilitate people who likely were born with a desire to harm others.

Likewise, I neither would expect or request any support or love from any friend or family member if I went on a rampage of killing a couple where they were, shot point blank in the heads, and stepped over the man's body like debris as I was taking their child out of the house to torture. I would know exactly why I never heard from my family again. We reap what we sow. Forgiveness is not possible nor appropriate in some extreme situations, and what JP did is what I consider to be a good example of unforgivable.

Respectfully, IMO.
 
Very well said Jana. And as far as JP's dad speaking to media or possibly in the courtroom gallery, he should 'zip it.' One brief heartfelt apology for his son's behaviour and expression of grief for JP Closs and her loved ones in a public statement is fine, but anything else such as trying to send them a letter or similar or more public statements is completely inappropriate. The focus should be solely on Jayme, the real victim here.
 
The only one that might be questionable is the "I did it". I believe one of lawyers on board talked about excited utterances or something IDR the exact details.

I find it hard to believe that LE/FBI would go into the interview room with JP and not legally and by the book dot every I and cross every T. They worked this case under excruciating pressure and media awareness for 88 days. I just don't see the likeliness of a problem with that one. JMO
Yes, I agree. I think it might be a technicality his defense team might try to use.
 
IANAL, but I just think it might be a technicality his defense team will try to use, as in he spoke before they read him his rights. LE has him and he's confessed. Jayme knows he did it. I would think his defense team is going to grasp for any straw they can.
OK, sure. But there’s no reason to think LE failed to Mirandize him, is there?
 
I imagine the defense team knows the other side probably wants to spare JC a trial, so the defense team will use this as leverage in a plea bargain. Maybe they hope to get a sentence that gives JP a chance, however remote, at parole in the future.
 
I imagine the defense team knows the other side probably wants to spare JC a trial, so the defense team will use this as leverage in a plea bargain. Maybe they hope to get a sentence that gives JP a chance, however remote, at parole in the future.
I personally don't think any one of the Closs family members would succumb to pressure for anything less than LWOP. That may seem like a broad brushstroke, but they lost a brother and a sister in the most horrific way imaginable to me <and in front of their own child> and have now seen up close and personal the trauma JP inflicted on Jayme for 88 days. I just don't think they'd want to risk him having any shot at parole.

OTOH, if Jayme should express a distinctly negative response to testifying or if it might jeopardize her physical or mental state, perhaps they would consider something.
 
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