AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #30

[bestie]

First post on this but I’ve tried following from the start.

Do we know what time James finished work on that Sunday?

The 20 minute gap between the neighbours hearing gunshots and the call is something I’m finding hard to believe they got wrong, if I remember correctly they had only just gone to bed.

Also the two young females in the vehicle being asked to leave the area seems a big red flag. Is it possible the perp used them to lure James to the door or were they just concerned or knew the family.

I’ve not ruled out any of the 3 being targets but I do believe it was planned and the time and day were chosen.

 

[photographer4]

Were there missed opportunities by LE to capture the perp (s) b4 they got away? The Closs family lives less than 3 miles from LE..it's the wee hours of the morning...why would all of the LE come to the scene versus a couple of them setting up a road block to the East if they(LE) were coming from the West..?? No sense of urgency IMO.

Realistically, they didn't know what they were walking into. They had no reason to set up road blocks when leaving the station to attend the scene. They had no idea until they got there and found James down... the dispatcher noted the call to 911 as a hangup. What grounds did they have at the point of 911 contact to close down roads? Or even upon arriving on the scene, not knowing who the victims were or even if there was supposed to have been a minor girl at the home at the time?

 

[Rubiconbob]

I think Fitzgerald is beyond confident on timeline... we all want neighbors to be correct so it’s interesting item to review.

I think they have cell
Phones not moving from 12:30 to 12:51... then at 12:52 Denise only cell phone that moves and one immediate call to 911...

Fitz has 911 call/ body temp/blood coagulation/electrical meter reading/cell phone movements..

 

[daisy6441]

At which venue? I think on here, yes (bottom of the first page of every thread #), some pics of the house, inside and out, at various times, across the Web in general. Sorry if I misunderstood the question

There were more pictures but I guess the post was deleted because my first reply was deleted.

 

[WiseOwl]

Hi websleuthers and happy Saturday.

Was kicking around an idea last night and I'm sure it's already been brought up and discussed but it's hard to keep up with absolutely everything here.

I'm playing around with the idea that Jayme being taken is a red herring and was done to throw LE off. It started with someone mentioning that Mark Fuhrman believes Denise was the target. Then I saw the case yesterday of Dan Wozniak-- basically he wanted money from a guy he knew,Sam, in order to fund his upcoming wedding/honeymoon. He killed Sam and took his wallet, phone, passport, but that was not the end of it. He then also texted a friend of Sam's, Julie, from Sam's phone and asked her to come to the apartment. Sam wasn't considered missing at this time so Julie had no reason not to believe it was actually Sam texting her. She went to his apartment and Dan was there and killed her. He also made it appear she had been sexually assaulted. Sam, and all his possessions that one would need to be on the run, were gone so the most straightforward path was that he had killed Julie and fled. With the evidence available that was indeed the most logical scenario, and it is what LE did first go on. But good detective work eventually led to Dan, whose motive was strictly financial. But you have a deceased woman in a missing man's apartment who appears to have been sexually assaulted and your initial theory isn't that the missing man is also dead because a friend of his killed him and set the whole thing up.

All this to say, the most straightforward path to me in this case has been "Jayme missing = Jayme the motive and target" and that could still be true. But I think it's just as likely that perp wanted James and/or Denise dead and then took Jayme so LE would think they're looking for a child/sexual predator.

Of course if this is the case LE would most likely have SOME link between perp(s) and J and D to go on. But bear in mind that it's been two and a half months. Some people say that if there was a connection LE would've found it by now. I ask you to not think so concrete on that. I'm not sure of the timeline in the Dan Wozniak case but it probably did take some time. It started with Sam's dad monitoring his bank account and that led to a pizza place but it ended up that his card was being used by a pal of Dan at first. So I definitely don't believe it's absolute that if there is some prior connection between perp and Closses it would've been found by now, not at all.

This might fit into your theory. Taken from the Green Bay Press Gazette November 15, 2018:

What stands out about Jayme's case to Kenneth Mains, a detective and cold case consultant, is the deaths of her parents. Though he's not intimately aware of the details, a stranger abduction with two murders inside the home is uncommon, he said in an email to USA TODAY NETWORK-Wisconsin.

If the ultimate goal was kidnapping or sex trafficking, Mains said, it wouldn't be necessary to kill the parents.

"You may kill them because they know who you are or because the purpose is to kill them and not the kidnapping," he said. "It is an extra, extraordinary step and it is done for a specific purpose not related to the kidnapping."

So could James and Denise have been the target? Jayme taken for another reason?

 

[Andreee]

This might fit into your theory. Taken from the Green Bay Press Gazette November 15, 2018:

What stands out about Jayme's case to Kenneth Mains, a detective and cold case consultant, is the deaths of her parents. Though he's not intimately aware of the details, a stranger abduction with two murders inside the home is uncommon, he said in an email to USA TODAY NETWORK-Wisconsin.

If the ultimate goal was kidnapping or sex trafficking, Mains said, it wouldn't be necessary to kill the parents.

"You may kill them because they know who you are or because the purpose is to kill them and not the kidnapping," he said. "It is an extra, extraordinary step and it is done for a specific purpose not related to the kidnapping."

So could James and Denise have been the target? Jayme taken for another reason?

I do think detective Mains is right. I am a complete amateur, but I too have never really thought Jayme's parents were killed to get to her, it just seemed illogical, unnecessary and overthetop to me. Horribly violent too of course. Also, <modsnip: removed social media rumor>

 

[daisy6441]

Something came to me last night while I was supposed to be going to sleep but it took me until now to catch up on all the comments.
Do you think the suspect/s went directly to the house? Or did they drive past it a few times first?
Its not like you could cruise around the block. They either had to take a longer route and drive around, turn around in a driveway or business, or drive directly to the property and attack.
Thinking about what one commentator said about it being difficult to spot until you were right there, it makes me think they either went by it a few times or they knew exactly where they were going in the dark.
Then you have the girls who were driving by while police were at the crime scene. They had to be looping by multiple times in a short period so how did they do that? I would be asking neighbors if they saw anyone turning around in their driveways that night or noticed tire tracks the next morning.

This might fit into your theory. Taken from the Green Bay Press Gazette November 15, 2018:

What stands out about Jayme's case to Kenneth Mains, a detective and cold case consultant, is the deaths of her parents. Though he's not intimately aware of the details, a stranger abduction with two murders inside the home is uncommon, he said in an email to USA TODAY NETWORK-Wisconsin.

If the ultimate goal was kidnapping or sex trafficking, Mains said, it wouldn't be necessary to kill the parents.

"You may kill them because they know who you are or because the purpose is to kill them and not the kidnapping," he said. "It is an extra, extraordinary step and it is done for a specific purpose not related to the kidnapping."

So could James and Denise have been the target? Jayme taken for another reason?

It could be something as simple as their gun jamming or running out of bullets that stopped Jayme from being killed right there. I also don't buy into the trafficking theory. They go after kids that won't be missed like homeless, troubled home or kids that are near 18 so they will be more likely classified as a runaway. I was watching a documentary I can't remember the name of that featured a couple girls who were lured into sex trafficking. They were both older teens. They were lured away from their homes and taken by people who kept them drugged and got them addicted so they were easy to control.

 

[Trino]

Looks like fun! I bet it is warm out there. There is no ice on their beards.

Exactly why would a perp go to Canada? I don’t get it.

Canada is not a get out of jail free card. Big cities, educated people who listen to the news. Missing kids are found all over the US and the world. Thunder Bay, the first crossing from MN, has more people than Duluth.

 

[bestie]

Am I right in thinking the parents worked different shifts? So for instance if one worked 6am to 2pm and then the other worked 2pm to 10 pm. If the parents were the target which I am leaning towards then the early hours would be an ideal time to have the family together

 

[Trino]

I do think detective Mains is right. I am a complete amateur, but I too have never really thought Jayme's parents were killed to get to her, it just seemed illogical, unnecessary and overthetop to me. Horribly violent too of course. <modsnip: removed social media rumor>

It might be good to go back years ago in Denise's history. Maybe James's too.

 

[daisy6441]

Canada is not a get out of jail free card. Big cities, educated people who listen to the news. Missing kids are found all over the US and the world. Thunder Bay, the first crossing from MN, has more people than Duluth.

I was once told it was harder to get someone out of Canada than Mexico. I know that is especially true if they committed murder and could face the death penalty back home.
Of course, Canada is relatively close to its something to watch out for, just in case.

 

[Mom24]

I do think detective Mains is right. I am a complete amateur, but I too have never really thought Jayme's parents were killed to get to her, it just seemed illogical, unnecessary and overthetop to me. Horribly violent too of course.<modsnip: removed social media rumor>

I disagree, I think Jayme was the target but I also feel that James and Denise were secondary targets. IMO, someone wanted Jayme but had felt thwarted by James and Denise, so they were killed.

 

[Lillymac]

Le was responding to a hang up call. They probably were not even using lights, much less blocking roads, at that point.

And they sure we're not expecting what they came upon....

 

[kkdj]

I disagree, I think Jayme was the target but I also feel that James and Denise were secondary targets. IMO, someone wanted Jayme but had felt thwarted by James and Denise, so they were killed.

Perhaps the perp wanted Jayme and the only way he felt she would be compliant enough to go with him was to murder her parents right in front of her....shock and scare her nearly to death.

 

[Forpsy]

LE is probable very knowledgeable about the folks in town. I think they are from some small surrounding town and know that they won't be turned in either because of family ties or because everyone is afraid to talk.

The problem with LE knowing everyone in a small town is the possibility of their overlooking someone who has been standing out for years and just dismissed.

 

[WiseOwl]

Something came to me last night while I was supposed to be going to sleep but it took me until now to catch up on all the comments.
Do you think the suspect/s went directly to the house? Or did they drive past it a few times first?
Its not like you could cruise around the block. They either had to take a longer route and drive around, turn around in a driveway or business, or drive directly to the property and attack.
Thinking about what one commentator said about it being difficult to spot until you were right there, it makes me think they either went by it a few times or they knew exactly where they were going in the dark.
Then you have the girls who were driving by while police were at the crime scene. They had to be looping by multiple times in a short period so how did they do that? I would be asking neighbors if they saw anyone turning around in their driveways that night or noticed tire tracks the next morning.

It could be something as simple as their gun jamming or running out of bullets that stopped Jayme from being killed right there. I also don't buy into the trafficking theory. They go after kids that won't be missed like homeless, troubled home or kids that are near 18 so they will be more likely classified as a runaway. I was watching a documentary I can't remember the name of that featured a couple girls who were lured into sex trafficking. They were both older teens. They were lured away from their homes and taken by people who kept them drugged and got them addicted so they were easy to control.

I believe it was a targeted attack and the perp(s) went straight to the house - they knew exactly where they were going. I don't think the girls were related in any way to the crime just curious as to what was going on, but as you say where did they keep turning round to carry on driving past the Closs property?

 

[The Dude]

I was once told it was harder to get someone out of Canada than Mexico. I know that is especially true if they committed murder and could face the death penalty back home.
Of course, Canada is relatively close to its something to watch out for, just in case.

Wisconsin, and every state it borders, have no death penalty.

 

[daisy6441]

The theory about a long held grudge could be possible, but why now? Could it be Jayme changing schools? The person only found out where they live because Jayme was in the Barron school now?
Or the person moved away for a while and only recently moved back?
Maybe it is random and they thought no one was home because they did shoot near the house or go around peeking in windows and thought the occupants weren't home. In that case they wouldn't be planning to kill anyone so the shock of their plan going so bad could have been why they left so quickly.

 

[Wrenny]

Can’t see what this has to do with Jayme, but there was a missing teen earlier in Ontanogan

Missing teen from Northern Michigan found in Clinton County

The places named in this story are all in northern lower Michigan, not the UP.

 

[Lillymac]

Wisconsin DMV allows you to check license plates...I did this on the plates that were on the call log. The plate number listed for Denise's car does not match the car in the driveway. Plate switch or typo? Or nothing????