TX - Cameron Redus, 23, UIW student, fatally shot by campus PD officer, 6 Dec 2013

[wfgodot]

Well I guess we are all discussing published rumors then.
On every thread.
Since most of our info comes from what is published in msm.

I agree jj.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

We also know that student was celebrating the end of a semester, and there is a witness who says they went to bars. So why do you think he couldn't have actually driven erratically? Even if the student got home o'key, this cop doesn't know if the students decides to go somewhere again. I feel that it's cop's job to stop this from happening.

Exactly! Some of these articles seem to have the opinion that the officer should have just let it go. In the mean time, I am reading another thread where a kid was driving intoxicated, went home, left again and killed a bunch of people.

 

[LambChop]

Why do you believe this? Because this is handed to us by "authority"? Where is due process in this? This is a newspaper account of words given by fellow cops. Where is the defense of the dead young man in this? Where is the voice of the victim?
<modsnip>
quote]

Not sure what it is that LE is doing wrong when the "due process" comes from an investigation which is exactly what is taking place. That investigation would extend to the prosecutors office as well. The suspect chose to attack a police officer and that is documented by witnesses and on the auto. Not sure what use is needed to prove there was a physical confrontation when all Mr. Redus had to do was cooperate. No one likes to be stopped by a police officer but we all manage to cooperate and not get arrested. At some point Redus was doing something so that the officer tried to arrest him. Carter did not just drive up and seconds later shoot him. It happened over the course of 6 minutes, which doesn't sound like much but putting on cuffs and assisting the person into the back of a patrol vehicle would take probably a minute or so. So something did happen. jmo

 

[LambChop]

Exactly! Some of these articles seem to have the opinion that the officer should have just let it go. In the mean time, I am reading another thread where a kid was driving intoxicated, went home, left again and killed a bunch of people.

He killed four people and the fifth is paralyzed.

 

[Paragirl]

I am waiting on the tox screen to come back. I believe it will answer a lot of questions.

I too am curious to see what the tox screen shows but I'm not sure what questions it will answer, or what bearing Redus' level of intoxication has on Carter's choice of actions. Redus allegedly resisted once Carter tried to cuff him. Why was he trying to cuff him? Was he under arrest immediately upon exiting the vehicle? For what? For walking away? What proof did Carter even have at that point that Redus had done anything illegal? What was he arresting him for? And if he did think he was justified in arresting him, and he felt Redus was enough of a threat that he needed to be cuffed, why didn't he wait for back-up? Intoxicated or not...the officer is the one in the position of power with the 'extensive training and experience'. He should have exercised better judgement, ESPECIALLY if he suspected Redus was intoxicated, and might not be exercising good judgement himself.

 

[LambChop]

Would there be someway to tell if the tape has been altered?

This was a recording on his police radio so the dispatcher heard it and whoever was there trying to figure out where this officer's location was, maybe a commanding officer. Not sure how they would alter it. Redus made at least one statement that could be heard on it that we know of and he ended up dead. The statement was verified by at least one witness. jmo

 

[LambChop]

I too am curious to see what the tox screen shows but I'm not sure what questions it will answer, or what bearing Redus' level of intoxication has on Carter's choice of actions. Redus allegedly resisted once Carter tried to cuff him. Why was he trying to cuff him? Was he under arrest immediately upon exiting the vehicle? For what? For walking away? What proof did Carter even have at that point that Redus had done anything illegal? What was he arresting him for? And if he did think he was justified in arresting him, and he felt Redus was enough of a threat that he needed to be cuffed, why didn't he wait for back-up? Intoxicated or not...the officer is the one in the position of power with the 'extensive training and experience'. He should have exercised better judgement, ESPECIALLY if he suspected Redus was intoxicated, and might not be exercising good judgement himself.

A police officer can cuff you without arresting you and place you into his vehicle while waiting for backup. At that point Carter would have asked him to take a test. The issue seems to be Redus appearing to be under the influence so we don't know what happened in that regard and can only speculate. However, a police officer is within his rights to detain you whether or not a citizen may feel they are being unlawfully detained.

The officer was justified in confronting Redus because he hit a curb and was swerving all over the road which is a traffic violation and indication that the driver is impaired. Plus the officer could not let it go because he had already radioed it in that the driver was driving erratically. Walking away is not an option when you have been stopped by an officer who suspects you are in the wrong. jmo

 

[Paragirl]

I hope that the audio is released. Is that likely to happen?

 

[LambChop]

I hope that the audio is released. Is that likely to happen?

I believe the police investigation would eventually be public record so I would say yes. At this moment there is nothing that is being released that indicates Officer Carter did anything wrong. The investigation is into whether or not there is evidence that Carter may have used excessive force and did he feel his life was in danger. So far it appears he felt his life was in danger from what has been released. If he were a civilian in Texas this would be all over by now. Because he is a police officer regardless of his statement that he felt threatened they will do a thorough investigation before they allow him back on active duty. It is the way the system works. jmo

 

[Reader]

I too am curious to see what the tox screen shows but I'm not sure what questions it will answer, or what bearing Redus' level of intoxication has on Carter's choice of actions. Redus allegedly resisted once Carter tried to cuff him. Why was he trying to cuff him? Was he under arrest immediately upon exiting the vehicle? For what? For walking away? What proof did Carter even have at that point that Redus had done anything illegal? What was he arresting him for? And if he did think he was justified in arresting him, and he felt Redus was enough of a threat that he needed to be cuffed, why didn't he wait for back-up? Intoxicated or not...the officer is the one in the position of power with the 'extensive training and experience'. He should have exercised better judgement, ESPECIALLY if he suspected Redus was intoxicated, and might not be exercising good judgement himself.

I hope that the audio is released. Is that likely to happen?

I've read in one of the many articles above that officer Carter should have given Cameron a field sobriety test before he could arrest him for being impaired.

For the audio, the DA said they have not even gotten the case yet and will release the reports and audio when their investigation is complete, which could be months.

 

[LambChop]

I've read in one of the many articles above that officer Carter should have given Cameron a field sobriety test before he could arrest him for being impaired.

For the audio, the DA said they have not even gotten the case yet and will release the reports and audio when their investigation is complete, which could be months.

It appears Officer Carter never had the chance to give him a field sobriety test. Remember his dashcam was broken so in order to have the test on tape he would have to wait for another officer. But it does appear Officer Carter had enough evidence to suspect Redus had been drinking and wanted to wait for other officers to help him confirm before arresting Redus. Police can hold you without arresting you. They can put you in cuffs and place you in the back of their vehicle for safety reasons. Carter is required once he feels Redus was impaired to cuff him and place him in the back of the vehicle. Once Redus refused to cooperate he was resisting and Carter told Redus he was under arrest. Still struggling with Redus it appears Carter told Redus he was resisting arrest. Play this out with the officer telling him 56 times to stop resisting. Even drunk as a skunk one of those 56 commands should have sunken into Redus' head. He was resisting authority. Officer Carter was not a security officer. He was a police officer and Redus was obligated to respectfully cooperate. It is the law. jmo

 

[Reader]

I found this report on use of force:

An Ideal Use of Force Model For Law Enforcement: An Assessment of the Austin PoliceDepartment
(could not find one for San Antonio)
http://www.academia.edu/1193696/An_...An_Assessment_of_the_Austin_Police_Department

The public should be cognizant that police officers, however, when using force and effecting seizures, can and will use various forms of verbal and physical coercion in their functions of enforcing the law. But if these coercive acts are left unchecked, these powers may lead to unreasonable uses of force (Gallo et al., 2008, 480). Additionally, when an officer exercises this authority, the public expects he or she to do so with restraint and integrity (Lawton,2007, 163) because the unreasonable use of force affects public attitudes that can diminish the legitimacy of the police (Garner et al., 2002, 706).

An effective use-of-force continuum provides officers with clear examples of subject resistance matched with the appropriate use-of-force responses by the officer (Alpert and Smith,1999, 60). Continuum guidelines clearly establish a limited number of categories to characterize the level of resistance, dictating what level of response by the officer is warranted. The objective is to determine the extent to which officers follow or deviate from a continuum structure (Terrill,2005, 108), and use it as a measuring tool to more efficiently identify those instances when resistance and force appear to deviate (Terrill et al., 2003, 158).

Best practices state that policy should articulate the manner and environment in which less-lethal force is to be deployed. There are five types of encounters where less-lethal weapons are most effective and should be used: close proximity encounters; fleeing persons; hostage situations; barricaded subject situations; and riot or crowd control (Trostle, 1990, 29).Because most use-of-force encounters involve defensive efforts by subjects to resist physical control (Alpert and Dunham, 2010, 251), less-lethal weapons would be most effective here.

For example, a typical 'resistance to control' involves an initial refusal by a subject to comply with the officer's commands followed by the subject pushing or pulling against an officer's attempt to gain physical control and apply handcuffs. Most of these encounters end up with the subject and the officer on the ground and the officer trying to use the ground for
leverage (Alpert and Dunham, 2010, 251). These 'wrestling matches' increase the likelihood for officer and subject injuries.
Therefore, policy should state that less-lethal weapons, such as OCspray and CEDs, should be authorized as response alternatives to
officer and subject injuries.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ht-A-student-23-asked-You-gonna-shoot-me.html

Pictured: The 'mean' campus police officer who shot killed straight-A student, 23, who asked him: 'You gonna shoot me?'

 

[wfgodot]

It appears Officer Carter never had the chance to give him a field sobriety test. Remember his dashcam was broken so in order to have the test on tape he would have to wait for another officer. But it does appear Officer Carter had enough evidence to suspect Redus had been drinking and wanted to wait for other officers to help him confirm before arresting Redus. Police can hold you without arresting you. They can put you in cuffs and place you in the back of their vehicle for safety reasons. Carter is required once he feels Redus was impaired to cuff him and place him in the back of the vehicle. Once Redus refused to cooperate he was resisting and Carter told Redus he was under arrest. Still struggling with Redus it appears Carter told Redus he was resisting arrest. Play this out with the officer telling him 56 times to stop resisting. Even drunk as a skunk one of those 56 commands should have sunken into Redus' head. He was resisting authority. Officer Carter was not a security officer. He was a police officer and Redus was obligated to respectfully cooperate. It is the law. jmo

Yes - never had the chance, shot him to death first.

 

[Paragirl]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Experts-Let-shooting-probe-take-its-course-5065105.php

A struggle ensued and Redus was able to take away Carter's baton and strike him several times before Carter got the baton back, Pruitt said evidence showed.
Redus broke free and began to walk away, which is when Carter warned him to stop or he would shoot, Carter told authorities.

He was walking away AND had already been disarmed of the baton...why would Carter threaten to shoot at this point? I could understand him saying 'stop, you're under arrest', or 'stay where you are', or 'get down on the ground', or 'stop and put your hands on your head'...why 'stop or I'll shoot'? Carter claims he shot the student because he felt his life was in danger. Did he feel his life was in danger as the student was walking away unarmed? Carter alleges that Redus then turned around and charged him, but it sounds like he was already threatening to shoot him before he allegedly charged.

UIW officers are given a baton, pepper spray and a gun, but Alamo Heights police said Carter didn't have pepper spray on him when the shooting occurred.

A UIW spokeswoman said she did not know why Carter wasn't carrying pepper spray.

 

[Paragirl]

From the same article above:

UIW policies withheld

Several key elements to consider in use-of-force cases include whether the suspect has the ability to cause death or serious injury and whether that person has the opportunity to cause such harm, experts said. Also important, does the officer reasonably believe there is imminent jeopardy of being seriously harmed or killed?

&#8220;If it's nondeadly resistance like pulling away or running away, then he can only use nondeadly force, like a Taser or baton,&#8221; law enforcement policy expert Charles &#8220;Chuck&#8221; Drago said. &#8220;But if the student did get the baton, the response &#8212; deadly force &#8212; could be reasonable. If he has the baton but is 30 feet away he can't really hurt you; so deadly force wouldn't be appropriate.&#8221;

However, there also is the training that helps determine how to react to these various situations to make sure deadly force is the last option, Herberg and other experts said.

UIW declined to release the campus Police Department's procedures or use-of-force policies.

Former Police Chief Drago said it was &#8220;a shame&#8221; that UIW has not released the policies or procedures for the campus Police Department.

&#8220;There are legitimate questions, and the university should be more than anxious in dispelling any kind of question and alarm that the public might have,&#8221; he said.

 

[Paragirl]

In the end, the law may not be satisfying to everyone involved.

&#8220;There's a difference between what he's allowed to do and whether he made the best decision,&#8221; Drago added. &#8220;For some reason, he felt he couldn't wait for backup. If the student resisted, that would be within his rights to overcome that resistance.&#8221;

Scary.

 

[LambChop]

Scary.

It is scary that today many people do not have respect for authority. This never had to happen. All Redus had to do was to do as he was told. Once a commanding officer arrived he could have asked to have the cuffs taken off. Sometimes when people drink they do things they would never do normally. Very sad. In the video attached in a post above that was taken of two officers who were trying to arrest a woman, who was maybe 100 pounds soak-in-wet, you can see the officer struggling with her to put the cuffs on. Finally the two of them get them on her. It's really not easy to do if the person you are trying to arrest does not cooperate. And the answer to why so many jobs changes could be because some police departments have very ridged weight restrictions. jmo

 

[Paragirl]

It is scary that today many people do not have respect for authority. This never had to happen. All Redus had to do was to do as he was told. Once a commanding officer arrived he could have asked to have the cuffs taken off. Sometimes when people drink they do things they would never do normally. Very sad. In the video attached in a post above that was taken of two officers who were trying to arrest a woman, who was maybe 100 pounds soak-in-wet, you can see the officer struggling with her to put the cuffs on. Finally the two of them get them on her. It's really not easy to do if the person you are trying to arrest does not cooperate. And the answer to why so many jobs changes could be because some police departments have very ridged weight restrictions. jmo

Carter's brief employment stints also preceded law enforcement.

“He was like that, too, when we were married,” said first wife Ann Hernandez, who was married to Carter for two years.

According to Hernandez, Carter lacked stability and bounced from one job to another during their marriage. The two wed while he was an insurance claims representative for USAA, she said, explaining he didn't become a cop until after they separated.

“He had gone from insurance, basically from USAA to an insurance company in Austin to a pizza place, things like that,” Hernandez said.

http://www.expressnews.com/news/loc...cture-of-UIW-cop-in-controversial-5063478.php

 

[Reader]

It is scary that today many people do not have respect for authority. This never had to happen. All Redus had to do was to do as he was told. Once a commanding officer arrived he could have asked to have the cuffs taken off. Sometimes when people drink they do things they would never do normally. Very sad. In the video attached in a post above that was taken of two officers who were trying to arrest a woman, who was maybe 100 pounds soak-in-wet, you can see the officer struggling with her to put the cuffs on. Finally the two of them get them on her. It's really not easy to do if the person you are trying to arrest does not cooperate. And the answer to why so many jobs changes could be because some police departments have very ridged weight restrictions. jmo

Do you have the link for the video you mention? I've looked back a few pages and can't find it. It does sound like a case I posted a thread about before on a Tallahassee, Fl. case. The woman ended up with severe facial and body injuries, is suing the city, the city commissioners have reprimanded both officers and put them on leave, I think one left the force, and a new chief was hired. Not such an acceptable action those officers took after all. It's been a big scandal.

Respect for authority is good to a certain extent. That's what the
German's had for Hitler. It's not always good to follow the leader. I respect the police but not unquestioningly. They make mistakes just like anyone else. Check out all the cases here about corrupt LE and military. From everything I have read, I am not sure this officer had the reason or right to shoot Cameron to death. The case has questions that need to be answered and the investigation is still going on. The DA investigation is yet to begin and may be months before all the reports and audio are released. How can anyone be so sure that the death was justified at this point. I will wait until the final finding from the DA. In the meantime we should be able to discuss news that comes out and what we think about it.