awaiting sentencing phase

[JudgeJudi]

<Respectfully snipped>

“The appeal process is long and expensive, plus there are political issues which make it unlikely that the state would appeal. Both Judge Masipa and the National Director of Public Prosecutions are government appointees and it would not be the done thing for one to be seen to criticise the other."

If the prosecution does decide to cross appeal, Dr Curlewis believes they won’t just be trying to have the judge’s sentence upheld; they will be going for a whole new verdict.

“My gut feeling is that they will go in with all guns blazing and try to have the original verdict thrown out and secure a verdict of murder,” he said.

“If that is what happens, it could take a year or two to be decided. We would be back to square one.”

http://www.news.com.au/world/oscar-...-reeva-steenkamp/story-fndir2ev-1227088126803

I don't understand this statement at all. What are the political issues? Yes, all judges and the NPA are government appointees, so what criticism is he talking about? How does this make it different to any other case?

 

[AW2B]

There are, however, past culpable homicide sentences in South Africa that provide some context for the Pistorius case.

They include a singer known as Jub Jub whose murder conviction was overturned and replaced with a culpable homicide conviction this month, dropping his prison sentence from 25 to eight years. He was arrested after a 2010 drag race in which he and another man ploughed cars into a group of schoolchildren, killing four and seriously injuring two.

In a separate case, a taxi driver's murder conviction was also reduced to culpable homicide last year, cutting his prison time to eight years instead of 20. The driver's car had hit a train, and 10 children died in the accident.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/oscar-pistorius-faces-sentencing-week-26137630

 

[atthelake]

:seeya:

Just a few hours.. time to nap!

 

[JudgeJudi]

<Respectfully snipped>

Thanks Jj just letting off steam here.

BIB.......................its not just me unhappy with the verdict though it's at least several million people around the world and I mean millions.
It stinks and I stand by my reaction to the verdict she should be stood down forthwith and a retrial ordered immediately.
Her 2 assessors should be sent to college to practice legal aid or something similar................in motoring cases at a max.

As an aside here.
I love and respect your posts and your obviously far more 'clued up' on all this legal stuff than I am.
What is your opinion on :-

a). Masipa ignoring photo 55.
b). Masipa ignoring the ballistics evidence.
c). Masipa ignoring the testimony of 4 witnesses hearing a woman screaming for her life.
d). Masipa ignoring the evidence of the gun expert who trained OP and proved that OP KNEW the rules about handling and discharging a gun.
etc
etc
I think I already know your answers from previous posts but I don't agree that Masipa should not be 'sanctioned' because of her verdict here because she has 16 year serving the bench.
She has made a huge monumental *advertiser censored*-up here and half the world agree IMO.

And she believed this BS !!

No way Jj ..........No bloody way.

I understand your anger and your pain with the verdict, as do millions of others. It's not a case of having a retrial though. All judges get it wrong from time to time but they don't get stood down for wrong decisions. That’s why there are Courts of Appeal. As far as Masipa goes, a judge should expect to be the subject of public scrutiny.

Regarding the assessors, the female assessor has a wealth of experience, but as I referred to in an earlier post, “Tess also said, ‘Not sure where I’ve read it (may be from your research!) but isn’t there conflict of interest or bias when someone on the bench is so heavily on one side of the case?’" Now that comment is on WS, a lot of people are going to read the entire comment and be angered even more. This assessor may well be very biased.

Yes, you do know my answers from a) to d), or should it be a) to z) several times over. Masipa just dissed the entire PT case with one or two exceptions when it suited her (or de Toit) to do so.

Thank you for your kind words.

Tess’s 2 comments appear in the Juror13 blog.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/...-tragic-night/

 

[K.T]

<Respectfully snipped>

Regarding the assessors, the female assessor has a wealth of experience, but as I referred to in an earlier post, &#8220;Tess also said, &#8216;Not sure where I&#8217;ve read it (may be from your research!) but isn&#8217;t there conflict of interest or bias when someone on the bench is so heavily on one side of the case?&#8217;" Now that comment is on WS, a lot of people are going to read the entire comment and be angered even more. This assessor may well be very biased.

Yes, you do know my answers from a) to d), or should it be a) to z) several times over. Masipa just dissed the entire PT case with one or two exceptions when it suited her (or de Toit) to do so.

A lot of us noticed the assessor Henzen-du Toit whispering to Masipa from time to time. We also noticed &#8230; and it seemed obvious &#8230; that it appeared Masipa was reading the judgment for the first time and that she was making amendments from time to time. IMO Masipa did not write the judgment at all.

This is an extract from a comment by Tess in Lisa&#8217;s blog.

&#8220;&#8230; though I have began to wonder more about the assessor Janette Henzen-du Toit and her role in all this.

This assessor is doing a doctorate on Holistic sentencing! To give a criminal the least sentence possible! Her background as an advocate is for Criminal Defense, in addition to that she is heavily interested in the paraplegic community and may be married into a family that has a paraplegic athlete.

There was a reporter that noted the wording, phrases, etc. of the verdict was very unlike Judge Masipa. May it not have been the lady assessor?

I don't know where Tess got her information from, but if Masipa does retire after this case we won't be able to blame it on this trial. More sleuthing needed.

Scroll down past all the photos. It&#8217;s about the 7th comment and is posted by Tess.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/pictures-from-behind-the-doorone-tragic-night/

If that information about assessor Henzen-du Toit is correct (that she may be related/involved in supporting the paraplegic community, is doing her PhD in "holistic sentencing) that's all well and good in terms of her area of interest and support, but sounds bad if we imagine the bench will give Pistorius the heavy sentence he deserves.

I'll be probably be wrong *groan* but I'll put a guess at the sentence: 5-8 years sentence. 2-4 years suspended. A fine for the Tasha verdict. Much excruciating "poor Oscar" legal theatrics from expert and close friend witnesses in mitigation from Roux and co.

The judge and her remarks are just illogical in my opinion. Personally, I don't like the whole legal system reliance on "intent" forming a basis for verdicts, I am far more radical on how little a role I think "intent" should play. Including the Jub Jub appeal, he killed 4 teenage boys and critically injured two more. In effect that means only two years for each of their lives, actually only one year as it appears parole is extremely lenient.

Life is extremely cheap in South Africa, we're looking at institutional problems. It's quite often that verdicts and sentences are altered on appeal, for prosecution or defense, showing the instability of the system. The mandatory minimum sentence act was progress after decades of confusion and outrage at inequitable, illogical and/or insufficient sentencing in South Africa. Pistorius' trial is yet another problem in SA's judicial history.

 

[JayBee]

Hi all, Long time lurker here.Sorry if this may have been covered before and I'm also sorry if this is in the wrong place.

I'm just looking through some of the crime scene photos and one thing has really stood out to me.The bottom fitted sheet looks like it has freshly been put on. Looking at the white fitted sheet on the mattress, IMO, The creases on it suggest to me that it hasn't been slept on.Or at least one side hasn't, the left(as we look at it)has much more creasing. I find that if in a hurry and I put a creased sheet on my bed, the creases will drop out pretty quickly due to mine and my husbands body heat once we get in to sleep. Also, the creases will move according to how you sleep, you kind of push the creases away from you with your body, I hope I'm making sense. It just to me, does not look like two people were sleeping on that sheet previously.Even with say only a few hours sleep on a hot night, I don't think there wouldn't be so many creases left on the sheet and not in that position after having been slept on by two people.



On this next photo it points out a stain on the mattress. This made me think that maybe this fitted sheet had been put on after the shooting to maybe try to cover the stain on the bed? I'm not sure why or even if OP would have had enough time to change sheets? but why would there be blood on the mattress but not showing on the fitted sheet above it?


Anyway, Just me thinking out loud, Its 3:25am here in the UK and I'm probably over thinking at this late hour.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Hi all, Long time lurker here.Sorry if this may have been covered before and I'm also sorry if this is in the wrong place.

I'm just looking through some of the crime scene photos and one thing has really stood out to me.The bottom fitted sheet looks like it has freshly been put on. Looking at the white fitted sheet on the mattress, IMO, The creases on it suggest to me that it hasn't been slept on.Or at least one side hasn't, the left(as we look at it)has much more creasing. I find that if in a hurry and I put a creased sheet on my bed, the creases will drop out pretty quickly due to mine and my husbands body heat once we get in to sleep. Also, the creases will move according to how you sleep, you kind of push the creases away from you with your body, I hope I'm making sense. It just to me, does not look like two people were sleeping on that sheet previously.Even with say only a few hours sleep on a hot night, I don't think there wouldn't be so many creases left on the sheet and not in that position after having been slept on by two people.
View attachment 61175
View attachment 61179

On this next photo it points out a stain on the mattress. This made me think that maybe this fitted sheet had been put on after the shooting to maybe try to cover the stain on the bed? I'm not sure why or even if OP would have had enough time to change sheets? but why would there be blood on the mattress but not showing on the fitted sheet above it?
View attachment 61184

Anyway, Just me thinking out loud, Its 3:25am here in the UK and I'm probably over thinking at this late hour.

Hi, JayBee, you long term lurker, you!

I'm not able to say much about the sheets but I'm shocked to see the brass lamp on the long stand that hangs in an arch over the chair. My husband and I had that exact same lamp in our bedroom in 1984!! If you wait long enough, I guess everything comes back into vogue.

Someone else may have better eyes for your sheet question.

Welcome!

 

[zoran]

How about M'ladys 2 little helpers? They must have seen it the same way then. I cant imagine they were fighting passionately for a murder conviction and Mlady has completely ignored them, that doesn't make sense

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/12/oscar-pistorius-sentencing-reeva-steenkamp-south-africa

Oscar Pistorius: curtain set to close on murder trial that gripped South Africa
Athlete faces up to 15 years in jail as he is sentenced for culpable homicide after shooting Reeva Steenkamp
David Smith in Pretoria
The Guardian, Monday 13 October 2014 04.38 AEST

Millions of South Africans will tune in on Monday to see whether Oscar Pistorius will be jailed after his conviction for culpable homicide... although as a first-time offender who the court accepted showed genuine remorse after shooting Reeva Steenkamp, he could be treated leniently by Judge Thokozile Masipa...

Most perpetrators and victims of crime in South Africa are black. The Pistorius trial inverted this, which might be one reason for its morbid fascination, according to Eusebius McKaiser, an author and radio talkshow host. “The unlikely victim and unlikely accused is an element,” he said. “Many black South Africans were probably bemused that here you have a white boy who went to Pretoria boys high school, came from a middle-class family, was a goody two-shoes and he killed his girlfriend, something we usually associate with a black in a township. It’s very unexpected and so there’s a voyeurism there.”

 

[Estelle]

Absolutely. Tess also said, "Not sure where I&#8217;ve read it (may be from your research!) but isn&#8217;t there conflict of interest or bias when someone on the bench is so heavily on one side of the case?"

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/...-tragic-night/

I did research on the Assessors once on Websleuths ages ago and speculated on what Tess has been saying about conflict of interest due to the possible contacts of Henzen-du-Toit but I think a Mod removed it. I speculated that they probably mixed in the same circles and knew each other.

Also I was not impressed with the male Assessor as he has had no experience. He was just out of university.

IMO the three of them were specially chosen for this case to get OP off the hook as the authorities did not want their icon put in prison nor would they want to have to satisfy all the restrictions put on them by the Defence and the special treatment they would demand for OP in there.

I also posted a link at the time that these two Assessors could override the Judge. I found it yesterday but it was late so thought I would come back today and post about this. It really concerned me when I found out about these things. It was when the female Assessor went to hospital so I became curious about her.

 

[AW2B]

<Respectfully snipped>



I understand your anger and your pain with the verdict, as do millions of others. It's not a case of having a retrial though. All judges get it wrong from time to time but they don't get stood down for wrong decisions. That’s why there are Courts of Appeal. As far as Masipa goes, a judge should expect to be the subject of public scrutiny.

Regarding the assessors, the female assessor has a wealth of experience, but as I referred to in an earlier post, “Tess also said, ‘Not sure where I’ve read it (may be from your research!) but isn’t there conflict of interest or bias when someone on the bench is so heavily on one side of the case?’" Now that comment is on WS, a lot of people are going to read the entire comment and be angered even more. This assessor may well be very biased.

Yes, you do know my answers from a) to d), or should it be a) to z) several times over. Masipa just dissed the entire PT case with one or two exceptions when it suited her (or de Toit) to do so.

Thank you for your kind words.

Tess’s 2 comments appear in the Juror13 blog.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/...-tragic-night/

BBM

I want to read those comments..the link doesn't work..I get "that page can't be found"!

 

[Estelle]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...highlight=Janette+Henzen-du+Toit#post10389157

Post No 195

03-28-2014, 11:06 PM #195
Interested Bystander

Quote Originally Posted by zwiebel View Post
Here is some more info about the assessors. Unfortunately, google refused to translate it for me.

http://www.beeld.com/nuus/2014-03-03...r-diens-gedoen
Here we go:-

HTTP://WWW.BEELD.COM/NUUS/2014-03-03...R-DIENS-GEDOEN

OSCAR PISTORIUS TRIAL
Assessor has served as a judge
Monday, March 3, 2014

One of the assessors judge Thokozile Masipa Oscar Pistorius in the murder trial assists himself last year for a week as judge observed.

Adv. Janette Henzen-Du Toit has included a BA honors degree in psychology and a master's degree in criminal justice and criminal prosecution.

She is currently working on her doctorate in criminal law, criminal prosecution, evidence and constitutional interpretation.

Her thesis deals with the holistic approach to legislation on minimum sentences in South Africa.

Henzen-Du Toit in 1998 Bar and was a practicing member of the Pretoria Bar.
From 2003 to 2004 she was a practicing member of the North-desk.

She in 2005 as a practicing member of the national forum of advocates also as assessor in court cases presided.

In 2006, Du Toit-Henzen her at the Legal Aid Board (LAB) in Pretoria joined.
She is the 2010 Supreme Court unit manager of the Johannesburg relief center where she is responsible for high profile cases, cases heard by a full bench of the High Court shall be heard and appeal to the Court of Appeal in Bloemfontein.
She and Adv. Themba Mazibuko is Masipa's assessors.

&#8226; Despite inquiries to officials in the court and players in the justice department, no one at the time of publication to explain Mazibuko image's background is.
- Sonja Carstens

My reply to this post was:

So Janette seems very well qualified so I hope she is well enough to continue. This must have been a very stressful time for her. I wonder what is wrong with her.

It appears that Mazibuko is a mystery man and even journalists cannot find out anything about him.

I did a search and there are many people with his surname.

 

[LemonMousse]

How about M'ladys 2 little helpers? They must have seen it the same way then. I cant imagine they were fighting passionately for a murder conviction and Mlady has completely ignored them, that doesn't make sense

What about them? Wrong is still wrong whether it's one person or three thinking it.

Too many credible, legal commentators have expressed deep concern about the soundness of the judgement for there to be much doubt that something went amiss with their application of the law. I think they got into a "group think" scenario and couldn't move away from that.

 

[Estelle]

03-28-2014, 11:18 PM #198
K.T in Mar 2014 posted:

About the leak of the prosecution strategy (what?!) and also possible defense tactic of changing the definition of "reasonable man."


http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pis...us-case-n39071

Have you all seen this older Feb 28th, NBC article?

"South African journalist Karyn Maughan said his legal team is crafting a novel interpretation of the country's self-defense law, which is based on how a "reasonable" person would react to danger."

"You need to judge him as the reasonable paraplegic, and you need to take into account that this is a person who has persistently said that he's felt the most vulnerable on his stumps and was living, essentially, in a state of fear, in a state of terror."

If true, I find this legal strategy interesting, yet morally horrible. In a country with a great poverty divide and a huge difference in how black people are treated, rich privileged Pistorius, whose mogul family is like landed gentry, is trying to bend the rules, yet again.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...highlight=Janette+Henzen-du+Toit#post10389157

Post No 198

Kaydid23's reply

I think the problem they will face with this strategy is answering why he did not take the 30 seconds necessary to strap on his legs, before charging head on into that deadly confrontation. If he is so vulnerable on his stumps, why leave a locked room, and not call for help, but go running down a dark hallway on said stumps, to meet an unknown danger?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Day-16/page9&highlight=Janette+Henzen-du+Toit

Post 201

Shane13's reply:

If DT's strategy is to try to warp "Reasonable man" into "reasonable paraplegic" then there are several counters that Pros can use.

1. OP's own autobio [read here] hangs him. He has always said his mother raised him not to feel differently at all. He did not walk around in fear
2. With his gun aways at his side, he was not fearful at all, rather he was agressive all the time.
3. if he really had heard an unknown sound, he could have immediately hit the "panic button" to estate security and they would have been there in circa 60 seconds. This button appears never to have been hit that night.

www.websleuths.com/forums/showthrea...Day-16/page9&highlight=Janette+Henzen-du+Toit

Post No 210

 

[K.T]

I see Masipa&#8217;s verdict as incompetent. I can vaguely understand why she came up with a culpable homicide verdict&#8230;what I cannot understand is how she could that badly word the reasoning behind the verdict. In my opinion that doesn&#8217;t necessarily show corruption or collusion on acquitting Pistorius of murder but it does show legal incompetence.

At the very least, she opened the door for confusion or a possible prosecution appeal.

On another point: Masipa&#8217;s comments that Steenkamp&#8217;s whatsapp argument messages were merely due to a &#8220;dynamic&#8221; relationship are terribly damaging.

The irony is that even in Pistorius&#8217; version, Steenkamp was RIGHT and smart to be worried and anxious at her partner&#8217;s temper and &#8220;snap&#8221; actions.

The judge could have said nothing or, as Judge Greenland suggested, at least say that the evidence was inconclusive.

Yet Masipa ridiculously downplayed a partner&#8217;s important, flashing red warning sign about relationships. Steenkamp was intelligent enough, after only three months dating, to state that Pistorius&#8217; behaviour by his own account was reckless and illogical.

Steenkamp's words, even if you believe Pistorius innocence, indicates clearly that people should listen to their instincts, get help for their partner and/or get safely away from them. By ignoring and demeaning the intent behind Steenkamp's words, Masipa tells others who may notice such warning signs of danger or recklessness that there is nothing wrong and that is just NORMAL to have fear in a relationship. That it is merely &#8220;dynamic&#8221; and not a concern when their partner reveals &#8220;peculiarities&#8221; - like shooting guns in restaurants and being accidentally rather than intentionally homicidal.

Just more questionable competence from Masipa.

 

[JudgeJudi]

BBM

I want to read those comments..the link doesn't work..I get "that page can't be found"!

Go to this link and look at the very first one (Pictures from Behind the Door).

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

 

[K.T]

I can&#8217;t even unpack Masipa&#8217;s ruling on ammunition possession. Her verdict suggests any person in South Africa may possess anyone&#8217;s ammunition, for as long as they want, if they can say they had no &#8220;intent&#8221; to possess. This is bizarre and not in the spirit of the law, imo.

Here&#8217;s an extract from legislation about possession of ammunition:

117 Presumption of possession of firearm or ammunition
(2) Whenever a person is charged in terms of this Act with an offence of which the possession of a firearm or ammunition is an element, and the State can show that despite the taking of reasonable steps it was not able with reasonable certainty to link the possession of the firearm or ammunition to any other person, the following circumstances will, in the absence of evidence to the contrary which raises reasonable doubt, be sufficient evidence of possession by that person of the firearm or ammunition where it is proved that the firearm or ammunition was found-
(a) on residential premises and the person was, at the time-
(i) in control of such premises; or
(ii) over the age of 16 years and ordinarily resident at such premises;

http://www.saps.gov.za/services/flash/firearms/legislation/60of2000_eng.pdf

Think we need to be talking about the 2004 Firearm-Control Legislation especially the strict Competency Certificate and exam. It is important, well written and clear. The fact is that Pistorius recently passed the competence exam. Proving his understanding of the legal use of firearms and therefore showing he could foresee the resulting death of a human shot four times in small quarters with that type of expanding ammunition. I hope this can be used in aggravating circumstances as he has shown illegality and disregard for the legislation in both Tasha and C.Homicide verdicts.

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/southafrica.php

 

[Estelle]

Posted by Estelle

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ay-16/page10&highlight=Janette+Henzen-du+Toit

Post No 236

Here is the direct link:

http://www.thesouthafrican.com/news/...riuss-fate.htm

Having read that article, they implied Themba was fresh out of university so I assumed that he may have been a Law Lecturer so I did another google search.

It appears from the link below that Themba did not have a full-time job in 2011 as he was listed at Skills-Universe.

Here is what is said about him:

"PROFILE INFORMATION
Tell us about what you do
I am currently working as a Casual Court Interpreter, and i have also finished my Assesor Course with Agresol Acred Training Solutions."

http://www.skills-universe.com/profi...mbaMazibuko931

 

[LemonMousse]

I see Masipa&#8217;s verdict as incompetent. I can vaguely understand why she came up with a culpable homicide verdict&#8230;what I cannot understand is how she could that badly word the reasoning behind the verdict. In my opinion that doesn&#8217;t necessarily show corruption or collusion on acquitting Pistorius of murder but it does show legal incompetence.

At the very least, she opened the door for confusion or a possible prosecution appeal.

On another point: Masipa&#8217;s comments that Steenkamp&#8217;s whatsapp argument messages were merely due to a &#8220;dynamic&#8221; relationship are terribly damaging.

The irony is that even in Pistorius&#8217; version, Steenkamp was RIGHT and smart to be worried and anxious at her partner&#8217;s temper and &#8220;snap&#8221; actions.

The judge could have said nothing or, as Judge Greenland suggested, at least say that the evidence was inconclusive.

Yet Masipa ridiculously downplayed a partner&#8217;s important, flashing red warning sign about relationships. Steenkamp was intelligent enough, after only three months dating, to state that Pistorius&#8217; behaviour by his own account was reckless and illogical.

Steenkamp's words, even if you believe Pistorius innocence, indicates clearly that people should listen to their instincts, get help for their partner and/or get safely away from them. By ignoring and demeaning the intent behind Steenkamp's words, Masipa tells others who may notice such warning signs of danger or recklessness that there is nothing wrong and that is just NORMAL to have fear in a relationship. That it is merely &#8220;dynamic&#8221; and not a concern when their partner reveals &#8220;peculiarities&#8221; - like shooting guns in restaurants and being accidentally rather than intentionally homicidal.

Just more questionable competence from Masipa.

Really well said.

How she can dismiss "I am scared of you sometimes" said by a woman to a man who shot her dead just weeks later as just part of a "dynamic relationship" beggars belief.

As Nel said - this was not a normal relationship. It ended in death.

 

[JudgeJudi]

<Respectfully snipped>

03-28-2014, 11:18 PM #198
K.T in Mar 2014 posted:

About the leak of the prosecution strategy (what?!) and also possible defense tactic of changing the definition of "reasonable man."

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pis...us-case-n39071

Have you all seen this older Feb 28th, NBC article?

"South African journalist Karyn Maughan said his legal team is crafting a novel interpretation of the country's self-defense law, which is based on how a "reasonable" person would react to danger."

"You need to judge him as the reasonable paraplegic, and you need to take into account that this is a person who has persistently said that he's felt the most vulnerable on his stumps and was living, essentially, in a state of fear, in a state of terror."

If true, I find this legal strategy interesting, yet morally horrible. In a country with a great poverty divide and a huge difference in how black people are treated, rich privileged Pistorius, whose mogul family is like landed gentry, is trying to bend the rules, yet again.

The issue of OP's disability has come up a number of times on the Round Table and Judge Greenland has expressed his views on this subject more than once. The law as it currently stands does not take disability into account. The SA legal experts have all said they agreed this is a good law which is working well. But of course Roux wants to have that changed. Don't you know that OP's special? I've lost all respect for the entire PT.