Warrant for 12-26-96

[Blondieskatz]

Thank you for that link Squishfield. Why would they be so interested in wanting those dolls? Were they ever questioned about that?

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Sure, maybe JonBenet and Patsy were falling out over stuff, but that was hidden in the Xmas pic that surfaced, where JonBenet has her hair down, and still in her pijamas.

Your portrayal of Patsy may be accurate, but it lacks something, imo, for JonBenet to be subjected to such a violent death?

like what? when you consider all the reasons I mentioned previously,(plus I think she had quite a few bpd traits going);add in the fact she was tired and had been up all day,(from early on),it's late now and yet she has to deal with yet one more thing,(an uncooperative JB),I don't think losing her temper enough for it to become total rage is out of the question.I really suspect she had a period of what's called 'acute decompensation', assoc. w. her mental illness.
edited to add: I believe she stated she had one or more drinks that evening;and I also wonder if she'd taken a prescription med as she was questioned about that.

Why should being angry over the doll not being recieved enthusiatically by JonBenet transpose itself into a clue to her murder? I'm not saying its irrelevant, just that whatever was on that Xmas tape, will be something that conflicts with the Ramsey version of events. e.g. Patsy offered up her alleged disagreement with JonBenet over the red turtleneck readily, so a video version of JonBenet not liking her doll as much as expected, only seems to me to suggest the Ramsey's, in this regard, were not much different from millions of other American citizens?

Patsy had to account for the red turtleneck being balled up on the sink,so she had no choice but to state a reason as to why it was there.Whatever happened,I do think it happened when JB was wearing the red shirt.She started crying upon seeing it in the photo,remember? Plus Dr. Spitz said she was manually strangled by her shirt collar first,and I suspect that's why her shirt was changed back to the white one. (Patsy originally stated she'd went to bed in the red one.Probably true,IMO).Only when she realized (or perhaps it was the attorneys that realized) she needed to say JB went straight to bed did she change the shirt story.
JR made such a point in DOI of saying that Patsy wasn't upset over JB not liking the doll.*Usually whatever the R's say,reality is just the opposite.So taking that into account-she was upset over it.The tape disappeared (IMO) b/c JR didn't want anyone to see Patsy's fierce temper,and the fact she got angry w/ JB over it.(Recall Patsy's tight grip on JB's arm,but yet her smiling face in the photo of Christmas morning).I'm not saying it was monumental in causing her death,but it was one of the events leading up to it.Ppl with BPD react quite differently when they're in a mood,so to speak.You'd be greatly surprised,b/c often they won't do it unless they're with others (like family) they're comfortable with.Only then will they 'cut loose',so to speak.UK,pls do some research on BPD type 2.I have a relative with it,but perhaps you'd just have to have some experience with it to know the signs are present,as I think they were in Patsy.I suspect she totally flipped out that morning,leaving JR no choice but to make sure that tape disappeared.
Patsy was quite different from millions of Americans,I think you would agree w. that.
UK,what do *you think was on the tape that caused it to disappear?

 

[Blondieskatz]

It was my understanding that they weren't able to use the cancorder Christmas morning because the batteries were dead and that was a disappointment to JB, I will have to find where I read that. So, I thought they were only able to take pictures and the police have those pictures.
There is and interview about a picture between their Christmas morning pictures and a picture taken the morning next morning. I will see if I can find that. Maybe someone remembers it. Patsy ask why would someone take a picture of that???

 

[UKGuy]

like what? when you consider all the reasons I mentioned previously,(plus I think she had quite a few bpd traits going);add in the fact she was tired and had been up all day,(from early on),it's late now and yet she has to deal with yet one more thing,an uncooperative JB,I don't think losing her temper enough for it to become total rage is out of the question.I really suspect she had a period of what's called 'acute decompensation', assoc. w. her mental illness.
edited to add: I believe she stated she had one or more drinks that evening;and I also wonder if she'd taken a prescription med as she was questioned about that.




Patsy had to account for the red turtleneck being balled up on the sink,so she had no choice but to state a reason as to why it was there.Whatever happened,I do think it happened when JB was wearing the red shirt.She started crying upon seeing it in the photo,remember?
JR made such a point in DOI of saying that Patsy wasn't upset over JB not liking the doll.*Usually whatever the R's say,reality is just the opposite.So taking that into account-she was upset over it.The tape disappeared (IMO) b/c JR didn't want anyone to see Patsy's fierce temper,and the fact she got angry w/ JB over it.(Recall Patsy's tight grip on JB's arm,but yet her smiling face in the photo of Christmas morning).I'm not saying it was monumental in causing her death,but it was one of the events leading up to it.Ppl with BPD react quite differently when they're in a mood,so to speak.You'd be greatly surprised,b/c often they won't do it unless they're with others (like family) they're comfortable with.Only then will they 'cut loose',so to speak.UK,pls do some research on BPD type 2.I have a relative with it,but perhaps you'd just have to have some experience with it to know the signs are present,as I think they were in Patsy.I suspect she totally flipped out that morning,leaving JR no choice but to make sure that tape disappeared.
Patsy was quite different from millions of Americans,I think you would agree w. that.
UK,what do *you think was on the tape that caused it to disappear?

JMO8778,
Patsy may have had some bpd traits etc, and I suspect she may even have had some mental imbalance resulting from some negative childhood experiences, but to accumulate individual incidents and aggregate them as a causal factor in JonBenet's death, does not explain much for me.

I reckon JonBenet or Patsy said something in the Xmas video which referred directly to Xmas night or Xmas eve e.g. JonBenet sleeping with Burke?


.

 

[UKGuy]

It was my understanding that they weren't able to use the cancorder Christmas morning because the batteries were dead and that was a disappointment to JB, I will have to find where I read that. So, I thought they were only able to take pictures and the police have those pictures.
There is and interview about a picture between their Christmas morning pictures and a picture taken the morning next morning. I will see if I can find that. Maybe someone remembers it. Patsy ask why would someone take a picture of that???

Blondieskatz,

Your understanding is correct but that does not mean what the Ramsey's said was true.

From memory was the question aimed at a picture taken of the hallway or similar, it was passed of as the children practising with the camera, or someone taking test pictures?


.

 

[JMO8778]

It was my understanding that they weren't able to use the cancorder Christmas morning because the batteries were dead and that was a disappointment to JB, I will have to find where I read that. So, I thought they were only able to take pictures and the police have those pictures.

JR says that in DOI.But he also contradicts himself,saying he never missed videotaping Christmas.
He also makes a point of saying how his own father did that every Christmas,and now he was doing the exact same thing,(and he uses italics here) in exactly the same way.His emphasis,not mine.I guess this is in case the video should surface somewhere?

 

[JMO8778]

From memory was the question aimed at a picture taken of the hallway or similar, it was passed of as the children practising with the camera, or someone taking test pictures?


.

not quite,Patsy made the comment that 'it shows everything' as if it's a pic of someone naked.and she also denies taking it,although it's her camera.another one of their lie/deny moments ..captured on film this time.

 

[DeeDee249]

not quite,Patsy made the comment that 'it shows everything' as if it's a pic of someone naked.and she also denies taking it,although it's her camera.another one of their lie/deny moments ..captured on film this time.

There is a lot of speculation about exactly what that was a photo of. It was taken with the R camera, on the same roll as the Christmas pics, and the photo in question was NOT the last one on the roll (just in case anyone tried to say that the "intruder" added 'find family camera and take photo' to the VERY long list of things he had to do- you know, find flashlight, remove change batteries, unwrap presents to look for new underwear- HEY- he must have had X-ray vision to know the Bloomies gift set was even THERE all wrapped up, etc,).
I had read (maybe here) that the photo was just something innocuous, as if someone had accidentally pressed the button and showed the floor or something. But the way LE made a point of it, and PR's comment "It shows everything" (which I don't recall ever reading) makes me think it was somewhat more of a red flag.
It was made clear in the interview with PR that LE knew that this picture was taken BEFORE the murder- the pictures at the White's were after it on the roll. PR seemed to try to imply that the killer had to have taken it-she seemed not to understand that photos appear on a roll IN THE ORDER THAT THEY ARE TAKEN.

 

[DeeDee249]

Was anything ever said about where the doll was after JB's death? Was it still by the tree, in her room or just where was that doll?

I remember reading that Aunt P retrieved the MyTwinn doll in her "theft of evidence" raid on the home.
I haven't heard about the Samantha doll.
About the doll's cord, though...I have seen these dolls, as I am sure many of you have. The cord on the doll, though white nylon, is nowhere near long enough to have made that garrote. It also is a more rounded cord- the one that made the garrotte was a flat weave. The cord has also been identified as EXACTLY the kind of cord sold in two places in Boulder- an Army-Navy store and McGuckin's Hardware (where one of the Rs was PROVED via credit card records to have shopped earlier that month purchasing two items that match the cord and tape in price and department key).
So I think linking the cord to the doll is a dead end, IMHO.
The tape is another matter. It MAY have come from the doll's back- it was never tested. I have never read anything about the whereabouts of the Samantha doll. My own theory is that IF that tape came from the doll, that doll was gotten rid of, possibly being removed from the home by Aunt P. (After all, NO officers accompanied her on her raid- they waited IN THE PATROL CAR! ) THEN, of course, the Rs had to order the REPLACEMENT DOLL. Or people would be asking what happened to the doll. So I think the replacement doll was ordered as a "bait and switch". And sent to Access Graphics, because the Rs were living at the Stine's, and it may have aroused the Stine's suspicions if the doll had been sent there.

 

[Ames]

I think,as Thomas does,that things like that-(the doll,the red shirt) were building up rage inside of Patsy.They clearly weren't getting along on Christmas day.And it all came to a head on Christmas night.
Patsy was clearly controlling and I don't think she was emotionally mature enough to accept that JB's attitude was just typical for a child of her age.I think she took it personally.JB wasn't turning out to be who she'd hoped she would be,her 'ideal' version of a daughter.I think she was very upset by that.Coupled w/ the stress of Christmas and the upcoming trip,and perhaps her cancer,turning 40..it all came crashing down that night.I've already mentioned how I think mental illness played into it,so I won't go into that again.But Patsy clearly didn't like to lose-putting JB through the pageants that she lost again,rather than just letting her hand out prizes like the other girls did,clearly shows that,IMO.
I mentioned the doll b/c JR made such a point of saying in DOI that Patsy wasn't angry over it,and I bet she was.The fact the video disappeared makes me suspect it even more.

I read somewhere....maybe you can help me with this....that Patsy said that when she saw the MY TWINN doll for the first time..that it creeped her out, because it looked like JB in a coffin....(she was talking about the box that it was in). Now remember..this is a thought that she had BEFORE that fateful night.

 

[Ames]

There is a lot of speculation about exactly what that was a photo of. It was taken with the R camera, on the same roll as the Christmas pics, and the photo in question was NOT the last one on the roll (just in case anyone tried to say that the "intruder" added 'find family camera and take photo' to the VERY long list of things he had to do- you know, find flashlight, remove change batteries, unwrap presents to look for new underwear- HEY- he must have had X-ray vision to know the Bloomies gift set was even THERE all wrapped up, etc,).
I had read (maybe here) that the photo was just something innocuous, as if someone had accidentally pressed the button and showed the floor or something. But the way LE made a point of it, and PR's comment "It shows everything" (which I don't recall ever reading) makes me think it was somewhat more of a red flag.
It was made clear in the interview with PR that LE knew that this picture was taken BEFORE the murder- the pictures at the White's were after it on the roll. PR seemed to try to imply that the killer had to have taken it-she seemed not to understand that photos appear on a roll IN THE ORDER THAT THEY ARE TAKEN.

I posted the portion of Patsy's interview...over at FFJ...regarding this picture. And I agree with you...why in the world would anybody make a huge deal out of a picture of the floor (I read where some people, for whatever reason...thought that it was a messy hallway) or hallway. There HAD to have been some substance to that picture, if they deemed it important enough to show to Patsy. And she acted shocked too....she kept saying..."that was taken with MY camera?" I will see if I can find that portion of her interview..

 

[UKGuy]

I remember reading that Aunt P retrieved the MyTwinn doll in her "theft of evidence" raid on the home.
I haven't heard about the Samantha doll.
About the doll's cord, though...I have seen these dolls, as I am sure many of you have. The cord on the doll, though white nylon, is nowhere near long enough to have made that garrote. It also is a more rounded cord- the one that made the garrotte was a flat weave. The cord has also been identified as EXACTLY the kind of cord sold in two places in Boulder- an Army-Navy store and McGuckin's Hardware (where one of the Rs was PROVED via credit card records to have shopped earlier that month purchasing two items that match the cord and tape in price and department key).
So I think linking the cord to the doll is a dead end, IMHO.
The tape is another matter. It MAY have come from the doll's back- it was never tested. I have never read anything about the whereabouts of the Samantha doll. My own theory is that IF that tape came from the doll, that doll was gotten rid of, possibly being removed from the home by Aunt P. (After all, NO officers accompanied her on her raid- they waited IN THE PATROL CAR! ) THEN, of course, the Rs had to order the REPLACEMENT DOLL. Or people would be asking what happened to the doll. So I think the replacement doll was ordered as a "bait and switch". And sent to Access Graphics, because the Rs were living at the Stine's, and it may have aroused the Stine's suspicions if the doll had been sent there.

DeeDee249,
Good analysis, whatever the reason, the doll sent to Access Graphics, imo, plays a role akin to the size-6's, its an anomaly, maybe some forensic evidence was stuffed inside the doll's interior cavity, but it mattered so much a replacement was required?

 

[UKGuy]

not quite,Patsy made the comment that 'it shows everything' as if it's a pic of someone naked.and she also denies taking it,although it's her camera.another one of their lie/deny moments ..captured on film this time.

JMO8778,
Sure, thats where quoting from memory get you, wonder who the subject is, and if its JonBenet, then combined with the collection of photos, which I assume were discovered in the basement, this strengthens the case for prior abuse, and offers a rationale, as if one was needed for those search warrants on the Ramsey properties seeking *advertiser censored*?

 

[Blondieskatz]

Okay, I found where Patsy says they didn't take video in her interview of '98-
10 TRIP DeMUTH: There was a video camera, I
11 think, on that kitchen island there or something
12 like that. I may not have that exactly.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I vaguely remember a video
14 camera being out because I was probably turning
15 it up to take pictures Christmas morning but
16 then we never ended up taking any.

Also, a little further down in that interview they discuss the photograph, but you never find out what it's a picture of-
16 TOM HANEY: Well, this photo 12OTET8 was on
17 your roll of file in your camera. And on the
18 same roll is the next photo, a Christmas morning
19 photo of the kids.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes). Oh, God.
21 TOM HANEY: Before we, before we talk too
22 much about the next photo, if you can --
23 TRIP DeMUTH: You want to just take that
24 out for a minute?
25 TOM HANEY: Let's talk still about the
0528
1 120TET. Like I say, this was on your role of
2 film and it's not exactly the same photograph
3 that was taken by the police.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
5 TOM HANEY: But it's, it's, it shows --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
7 TOM HANEY: -- pretty much, I guess, or can
8 you tell me when that would have been taken?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have a clue why
10 anybody would take a picture like that. I don't
11 know (inaudible). Who took the picture?
12 TOM HANEY: Well, it's on your roll --

If anyone feels like going back and rereading that interview (which I did). I found it interesting how PR keeps saying that JB's pillow being on the end of the bed is unusual. Did she have a TV at the end of her bed?
Makes me wonder if she ever even made it to bed that night. She could have watched TV sometime that day propping up on her pillow at the end of her bed and that's the way she left it when she went to the White's party. Anyway if you go back and read it again pay special attention to that and give it a thought.

 

[JMO8778]

I read somewhere....maybe you can help me with this....that Patsy said that when she saw the MY TWINN doll for the first time..that it creeped her out, because it looked like JB in a coffin....(she was talking about the box that it was in). Now remember..this is a thought that she had BEFORE that fateful night.

yes,it was in DOI;Patsy wrote that part.

 

[JMO8778]

If anyone feels like going back and rereading that interview (which I did). I found it interesting how PR keeps saying that JB's pillow being on the end of the bed is unusual. Did she have a TV at the end of her bed?
Makes me wonder if she ever even made it to bed that night. She could have watched TV sometime that day propping up on her pillow at the end of her bed and that's the way she left it when she went to the White's party. Anyway if you go back and read it again pay special attention to that and give it a thought.

she had one in her closet,I recall reading,and would lay at the end of her bed to watch it.
It's possible she never made it to bed that night.

 

[JMO8778]

Okay, I found where Patsy says they didn't take video in her interview of '98-
10 TRIP DeMUTH: There was a video camera, I
11 think, on that kitchen island there or something
12 like that. I may not have that exactly.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I vaguely remember a video
14 camera being out because I was probably turning
15 it up to take pictures Christmas morning but
16 then we never ended up taking any.

JR says in DOI that he forgot to recharge the batteries.His other excuse is that since his daughter Beth died,he lived in the present and didn't worry about things like that anymore.Yet another contradiction of his.
Does Patsy ever say why they didn't take any? Seems if the camera was out,and she was prepared to shoot a video,it likely would have been recharged.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Sure, thats where quoting from memory get you, wonder who the subject is, and if its JonBenet, then combined with the collection of photos, which I assume were discovered in the basement, this strengthens the case for prior abuse, and offers a rationale, as if one was needed for those search warrants on the Ramsey properties seeking *advertiser censored*?

I agree UK,indeed it does.

 

[JMO8778]

DeeDee249,
Good analysis, whatever the reason, the doll sent to Access Graphics, imo, plays a role akin to the size-6's, its an anomaly, maybe some forensic evidence was stuffed inside the doll's interior cavity, but it mattered so much a replacement was required?

possibly the size 6 underwear? surely forensic evidence would have been left behind from it,and thus the need to replace it with an entirely new doll,if that were the case.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Patsy may have had some bpd traits etc, and I suspect she may even have had some mental imbalance resulting from some negative childhood experiences, but to accumulate individual incidents and aggregate them as a causal factor in JonBenet's death, does not explain much for me.

:banghead: ok,one more time.I believe Patsy's overall demeanor that morning-becoming angry w. JB over a minor,trivial issue (the doll),was representative of something much deeper going on inside of her.If you have never been around someone w. bpd,I can tell you,they can explode over the least little minor thing.JR makes such a point of saying that Patsy wasn't upset over it,that I believe she was indeed upset over it...enough to lash out at JB over it.So if Patsy can become enraged over something so minor,then surely she can become enraged over JB's toileting issues enough to lose control and harm JB,which is why I think the tape disappeared-JR didn't want anyone to see her fierce temper.