Warrant for 12-26-96

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Blondieskatz said:
All we really have to go on, as far as Burke goes is what the Ramsey's have told the public. He may have asked a lot of questions behind closed doors, he might have been afraid to sleep in his own bed, but we have no way to know what he was told about that night by his parents. Or if he woke up sometime during the night or even that morning (which, I have a hard time believing he DID NOT). JMO
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very true.
 
DeeDee249 said:
Certainly, a dysfuctional family dynamic is at play here, and has always been a factor. But at 9-10 years old, it can't be called collusion as far as BR is concerned. Family loyalty, i.e. what will happen to ME if my mom and dad are in jail, sent away, etc. is a big factor. Kids are still very ego-centric at that age. Now, as far as we know, BR is a college student. Still young enough to be dependent on family. His sister and mother are gone, as are his grandparents. Only his father and aunts. (shudder). Of these, perhaps his dad is the lesser of evils.
At the age he was when his sister was killed, I am sure his parents impressed on him VERY strongly the need to keep family secrets.
Remember, housekeeper LHP claimed to have caught BR and his sister "playing doctor" or similar activity; not at all uncommon among siblings. With his sister having been groomed to act sexual in an inappropriate way for a child, and he himself on the cusp of puberty at nearly 10, I would be surprised if it didn't occur occasionally.
Who knows- BR may have been told that his behavior with his sister could put him in jail- the dictionary opened to the word "incest"....
So BR would be old enough to understand the importance of keeping family "secrets". His parents may have been "blackmailing" him to do this, in a way, by saying that if anyone finds out that Mom or Dad were responsible for his sister's death, what would happen to HIM? And if anyone found out that he had been playing "sex games" with her, maybe the police would put HIM away, too.
Only BR knows what he was told. I think the time for him to come forward would be when he is truly an independent adult, possibly when his dad passes away. Not much is heard about the two of them now. When the news about JR and Beth Twitty came out, nothing was said about BR or his whereabouts.
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..but now that he's older,I would vote for fear or family loyalty.
 
DeeDee249 said:
Certainly, a dysfuctional family dynamic is at play here, and has always been a factor. But at 9-10 years old, it can't be called collusion as far as BR is concerned. Family loyalty, i.e. what will happen to ME if my mom and dad are in jail, sent away, etc. is a big factor. Kids are still very ego-centric at that age. Now, as far as we know, BR is a college student. Still young enough to be dependent on family. His sister and mother are gone, as are his grandparents. Only his father and aunts. (shudder). Of these, perhaps his dad is the lesser of evils.
At the age he was when his sister was killed, I am sure his parents impressed on him VERY strongly the need to keep family secrets.
Remember, housekeeper LHP claimed to have caught BR and his sister "playing doctor" or similar activity; not at all uncommon among siblings. With his sister having been groomed to act sexual in an inappropriate way for a child, and he himself on the cusp of puberty at nearly 10, I would be surprised if it didn't occur occasionally.
Who knows- BR may have been told that his behavior with his sister could put him in jail- the dictionary opened to the word "incest"....
So BR would be old enough to understand the importance of keeping family "secrets". His parents may have been "blackmailing" him to do this, in a way, by saying that if anyone finds out that Mom or Dad were responsible for his sister's death, what would happen to HIM? And if anyone found out that he had been playing "sex games" with her, maybe the police would put HIM away, too.
Only BR knows what he was told. I think the time for him to come forward would be when he is truly an independent adult, possibly when his dad passes away. Not much is heard about the two of them now. When the news about JR and Beth Twitty came out, nothing was said about BR or his whereabouts.
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DeeDee249,
I agree, although I use collusion in the loose sense, as opposed to a conspiracy, which is what John and Patsy are alleged to have been involved in.

Only BR knows what he was told.
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and what he knows took place?

Due to the dysfunctional nature of the Ramsey family lifestyle I doubt Burke will ever state exactly what occurred, if any of the elements you mention e.g. "playing doctor" or similar activity took place then he will not want the publicity hit that would follow.

.
 
Blondieskatz said:
All we really have to go on, as far as Burke goes is what the Ramsey's have told the public. He may have asked a lot of questions behind closed doors, he might have been afraid to sleep in his own bed, but we have no way to know what he was told about that night by his parents. Or if he woke up sometime during the night or even that morning (which, I have a hard time believing he DID NOT). JMO
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Well, actually he admitted that the morning of the 26th, when his dad went in to check on him...that he WAS awake, but, he had heard some noises and that he was just PRENTENDING to be asleep. He did finally admit to that...but, I believe that's about all he admitted to. He said that he had heard talking. (That would have been John and Patsy)...outside of his room.
 
Yes, he did say that. Now- he said TALKING. Not yelling, screaming, crying. What would you expect to hear if your mother found a ransom note saying your sister had been kidnapped? Talking? I doubt it. You'd expect to be woken up and asked what you heard, what you saw. Anything to help find your sister.
But we all know that wasn't necessary, was it?
 
Nope,not necessary and IMO,I think JR ordered BR BACK to bed because he wanted LE to SEE that BR was in bed-seemingly asleep,and hadn't heard nor seen anything that night.IOW-he didn't want BR questioned (not knowing whether in fact he had overheard anything or not),and the fact he gets angry in DOI that BR was questioned for about 40 mins. by LE at the White's that morning pretty much says that's exactly what the plan was,IMO.JR even goes so far as to say that's illegal under CO. law;well,his sister is missing and neither JR nor Patsy bother to question him,he should have been oh so eternally grateful that they did bother to question him at all.
 
Is Burke afraid OF his father or afraid FOR his father, is my question.
 
SuperDave said:
Is Burke afraid OF his father or afraid FOR his father, is my question.
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A little of both? And possibly afraid for himself also. His dad is pretty much all he has left. He also moved a few times in the years since 1996- first to Atlanta and then to Charlevoix. So no support system of family friends. Besides, so many of the R friends bit the dust as they were thrown under the bus. And the few that remained have since pulled back from the friendship, even old Atlanta friends, as I recall.
Does anyone know if ANY of that original "breakfast club" of that Dec.26th morning are still considered R friends?
 
DeeDee249 said:
Certainly, a dysfuctional family dynamic is at play here, and has always been a factor. But at 9-10 years old, it can't be called collusion as far as BR is concerned. Family loyalty, i.e. what will happen to ME if my mom and dad are in jail, sent away, etc. is a big factor. Kids are still very ego-centric at that age. Now, as far as we know, BR is a college student. Still young enough to be dependent on family. His sister and mother are gone, as are his grandparents. Only his father and aunts. (shudder). Of these, perhaps his dad is the lesser of evils.
At the age he was when his sister was killed, I am sure his parents impressed on him VERY strongly the need to keep family secrets.
Remember, housekeeper LHP claimed to have caught BR and his sister "playing doctor" or similar activity; not at all uncommon among siblings. With his sister having been groomed to act sexual in an inappropriate way for a child, and he himself on the cusp of puberty at nearly 10, I would be surprised if it didn't occur occasionally.
Who knows- BR may have been told that his behavior with his sister could put him in jail- the dictionary opened to the word "incest"....
So BR would be old enough to understand the importance of keeping family "secrets". His parents may have been "blackmailing" him to do this, in a way, by saying that if anyone finds out that Mom or Dad were responsible for his sister's death, what would happen to HIM? And if anyone found out that he had been playing "sex games" with her, maybe the police would put HIM away, too.
Only BR knows what he was told. I think the time for him to come forward would be when he is truly an independent adult, possibly when his dad passes away. Not much is heard about the two of them now. When the news about JR and Beth Twitty came out, nothing was said about BR or his whereabouts.
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When did Patsys father Don Paugh die? If he's still alive Burke still has a grandfather. And John has a brother, Jeff Ramsey, who is Burkes uncle. He has more men in his family life than just his aunts. In fact, when J & P were thinking they might be indicted when the Grand Jury disbanded they drew up legal paperwork to have Burke placed with John's brother Jeff and his wife to raise if that were to happen. Not any of the aunts.
 
JMO8778 said:
Nope,not necessary and IMO,I think JR ordered BR BACK to bed because he wanted LE to SEE that BR was in bed-seemingly asleep,and hadn't heard nor seen anything that night.IOW-he didn't want BR questioned (not knowing whether in fact he had overheard anything or not),and the fact he gets angry in DOI that BR was questioned for about 40 mins. by LE at the White's that morning pretty much says that's exactly what the plan was,IMO.JR even goes so far as to say that's illegal under CO. law;well,his sister is missing and neither JR nor Patsy bother to question him,he should have been oh so eternally grateful that they did bother to question him at all.
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The fact that JR got angry at the fact that Burke was questioned by LE...is a huge red flag. I agree, the Rams should have been thankful that LE questioned Burke, since THEY didn't. I mean, geesh...he could have heard the "intruder"...or JB scream...or something.
 
Even if BR heard anything or knows what happened, he will probably never tell. I think he is old enough to reason to himself that it would do no good. JB is dead and (IMO) the killer is dead and all it would do would hurt the family. Even if his father were to die, he still had his step sister and step brother who wouldn't want their father's rep. ruined.

So, I feel safe that after all these years the R's had to work on him that he will never say a word. And he was so young they probably told him day after day that he was wrong about what he thought happened. I would think that when he got older and went to college he would have had a heart to heart with his mother before she died about that night. She probably had him promise to never say anything about that night/morning.
 
Blondieskatz said:
Even if BR heard anything or knows what happened, he will probably never tell. I think he is old enough to reason to himself that it would do no good. JB is dead and (IMO) the killer is dead and all it would do would hurt the family. Even if his father were to die, he still had his step sister and step brother who wouldn't want their father's rep. ruined.

So, I feel safe that after all these years the R's had to work on him that he will never say a word. And he was so young they probably told him day after day that he was wrong about what he thought happened. I would think that when he got older and went to college he would have had a heart to heart with his mother before she died about that night. She probably had him promise to never say anything about that night/morning.
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right,and they've probably got his real memories washed away,as in,it happened this way,not that..for one,I don't believe JR's account of Christmas morning.I don't believe that Patsy just blew off the fact that JB didn't like the doll...that's why he HAD to write it that way in DOI..in case BR later recalled what really happened...so JR can say,'no,it was like this...see? it's even in the book...'
One thing I think would really trip BR's memory is if he heard the tape of the 911 call from that morning..the exchange bet. himself and JR.WOW.That would be something.I wonder if LE even ever played it for him,or were allowed to?Surely it was played for the GJ,where he may have heard it,and (supposedly) was to be allowed to have a copy of,since his voice was on it? I bet the R's made sure it disappeared after that though !
 
I agree that BR may very well have been brainwashed. If you tell a child a lie often enough, they will come to believe that it is true- the point about the R book DOI is a good one. I can picture BR being told "See, it HAS to be true- or else it could never be published in a book!". Of course, a child would never think to then ask- "But if YOUR book is the truth and the others are filled with lies...how did THEY get published?"
 
JMO8778 said:
right,and they've probably got his real memories washed away,as in,it happened this way,not that..for one,I don't believe JR's account of Christmas morning.I don't believe that Patsy just blew off the fact that JB didn't like the doll...that's why he HAD to write it that way in DOI..in case BR later recalled what really happened...so JR can say,'no,it was like this...see? it's even in the book...'
One thing I think would really trip BR's memory is if he heard the tape of the 911 call from that morning..the exchange bet. himself and JR.WOW.That would be something.I wonder if LE even ever played it for him,or were allowed to?Surely it was played for the GJ,where he may have heard it,and (supposedly) was to be allowed to have a copy of,since his voice was on it? I bet the R's made sure it disappeared after that though !
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Help, this is driving me crazy. I recently read that JB was looking forward to getting a doll for Christmas and loved it.

I thought that when she got the big doll, she did not like it. Can someone help me with this. It is one of those gnawing things. Thanks so much. Solace
 
Solace said:
Help, this is driving me crazy. I recently read that JB was looking forward to getting a doll for Christmas and loved it.

I thought that when she got the big doll, she did not like it. Can someone help me with this. It is one of those gnawing things. Thanks so much. Solace
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Solace,

Well I dont think she was as excited about the doll as Patsy was, then again I dont think this played too much into her death.

Then again who ordered the doll to be delivered to Access Graphics, Some people think the nylon cord that comes with the doll was used to restrain JonBenet, do the lengths match?

Note JonBenet not liking the doll or not wanting to wear the turtleneck may play some part in another version of events?

And could explain why the Xmas movie vanished, something must have been referred to, that did not occur in the final staged version of events?


.
 
Solace said:
Help, this is driving me crazy. I recently read that JB was looking forward to getting a doll for Christmas and loved it.

I thought that when she got the big doll, she did not like it. Can someone help me with this. It is one of those gnawing things. Thanks so much. Solace
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I don't know but in DOI,JR says Patsy had saved the MyTwinn doll for last,as a special gift.But when JB opened it,she wasn't particularly impressed with it,and said 'she doesn't really look like me',and put it down.
 
UKGuy said:
Solace,

Well I dont think she was as excited about the doll as Patsy was, then again I dont think this played too much into her death.

Note JonBenet not liking the doll or not wanting to wear the turtleneck may play some part in another version of events?

And could explain why the Xmas movie vanished, something must have been referred to, that did not occur in the final staged version of events?


.
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I think,as Thomas does,that things like that-(the doll,the red shirt) were building up rage inside of Patsy.They clearly weren't getting along on Christmas day.And it all came to a head on Christmas night.
Patsy was clearly controlling and I don't think she was emotionally mature enough to accept that JB's attitude was just typical for a child of her age.I think she took it personally.JB wasn't turning out to be who she'd hoped she would be,her 'ideal' version of a daughter.I think she was very upset by that.Coupled w/ the stress of Christmas and the upcoming trip,and perhaps her cancer,turning 40..it all came crashing down that night.I've already mentioned how I think mental illness played into it,so I won't go into that again.But Patsy clearly didn't like to lose-putting JB through the pageants that she lost again,rather than just letting her hand out prizes like the other girls did,clearly shows that,IMO.
I mentioned the doll b/c JR made such a point of saying in DOI that Patsy wasn't angry over it,and I bet she was.The fact the video disappeared makes me suspect it even more.
 
JMO8778 said:
I think,as Thomas does,that things like that-(the doll,the red shirt) were building up rage inside of Patsy.They clearly weren't getting along on Christmas day.And it all came to a head on Christmas night.
Patsy was clearly controlling and I don't think she was emotionally mature enough to accept that JB's attitude was just typical for a child of her age.I think she took it personally.JB wasn't turning out to be who she'd hoped she would be,her 'ideal' version of a daughter.I think she was very upset by that.Coupled w/ the stress of Christmas and the upcoming trip,and perhaps her cancer,turning 40..it all came crashing down that night.I've already mentioned how I think mental illness played into it,so I won't go into that again.But Patsy clearly didn't like to lose-putting JB through the pageants that she lost again,rather than just letting her hand out prizes like the other girls did,clearly shows that,IMO.
I mentioned the doll b/c JR made such a point of saying in DOI that Patsy wasn't angry over it,and I bet she was.The fact the video disappeared makes me suspect it even more.
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JMO8778,
Sure, maybe JonBenet and Patsy were falling out over stuff, but that was hidden in the Xmas pic that surfaced, where JonBenet has her hair down, and still in her pijamas.

Your portrayal of Patsy may be accurate, but it lacks something, imo, for JonBenet to be subjected to such a violent death?

Why should being angry over the doll not being recieved enthusiatically by JonBenet transpose itself into a clue to her murder? I'm not saying its irrelevant, just that whatever was on that Xmas tape, will be something that conflicts with the Ramsey version of events. e.g. Patsy offered up her alleged disagreement with JonBenet over the red turtleneck readily, so a video version of JonBenet not liking her doll as much as expected, only seems to me to suggest the Ramsey's, in this regard, were not much different from millions of other American citizens?

.
 
Was anything ever said about where the doll was after JB's death? Was it still by the tree, in her room or just where was that doll?
 
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