Stain in Trunk May Show Outline of Child**REVISIT FOR READING*

[legalmania]

There is no ZFG, never has been, she made the whole story up by the seat of her pants. She never had a phone number or an address for this fictitious person. If you go back and listen to the original interviews of Casey by the detectives, while she was trekking them all over town, giving them places supposedly this person lived, LE was checking on it all while she was making it up. She claimed those phone numbers were in a different phone. Never once did she, or anyone in the family have any phone number or information on this nonexistent person.

There are phone pings and map to verify where she is, down to the minute for those days. And there was recently a citing of Casey & Caylee by someone late in the afternoon, on the 16th of June

And in terms of how/where/when Caylee died, we do not know for sure.
almost everyone has their own theories,based on evidence we have thus far, timelines, etc. mine have changed several times, and probably will again

Well most of us know all this but I'm interested to see how the defense explains it all.

 

[AZlawyer]

If she called ZG at 5 wouldn't that number be on her cell? Does anyone know if there was a call at 5 that day and did it register back to a ZG?

There were no unidentified calls on her phone the evening of June 16. There were also no unidentified calls at the time she supposedly received a call from Caylee on July 15.

 

[AZlawyer]

I think she was in the laundry bag and garbage bags in the trunk..and there is no way she would have fit into the laundry bag unless curled into the fetal position. They found no body fluids in the trunk. I think outline was likely caused by moisture in the trunk air from the body which escaped through the tops of the garbage bags (drawstrings pulled tight but it's not exactly sealed persay). The moisture turned to condensation in the heated closed space and settled under the bag where the body lay. The odor also escaped from the bags the same way and permeated the interior of the trunk and car.

They found no usable DNA in the trunk stain. That doesn't mean it wasn't caused by body fluids, any more than the fact that Caylee's DNA wasn't on the duct tape doesn't mean it wasn't applied to her face.

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

They found no usable DNA in the trunk stain. That doesn't mean it wasn't caused by body fluids, any more than the fact that Caylee's DNA wasn't on the duct tape doesn't mean it wasn't applied to her face.

Even they couldn't pull DNA from the stain, wouldn't they be able to tell if it was made up of body fluid components?

 

[MissJames]

In my opinion I think Caylee was already dead when Casey allegedly put the duct tape over her mouth. I think she died of heat exhaustion and her mouth was open, she tried to shut her mouth with duct tape, she was sitting at the time, which if you lay somebody down who was sitting when they die and rigor mortis has set in they could look to be in the fetal position. This is just a theory of mine and jmo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rigor_mortis

We are heading OT,but there was a case in FL[Huck,I believe] that tried to say the tape may have been applied after death.The FL Supreme Court upheld that there would be no reasonable cause to put duct tape over a person's mouth after they died.
It's been discussed here a lot.

 

[lizzysf]

They found no usable DNA in the trunk stain. That doesn't mean it wasn't caused by body fluids, any more than the fact that Caylee's DNA wasn't on the duct tape doesn't mean it wasn't applied to her face.

I think had her body been in there decomposing and unwrapped in the bags, they would have found plenty to work with. Also would have found copious amounts of body fluid components in the carpet. They came back with a positive air sample from the body farm, which leads me to believe she was already in the bags.

 

[legalmania]

We are heading OT,but there was a case in FL[Huck,I believe] that tried to say the tape may have been applied after death.The FL Supreme Court upheld that there would be no reasonable cause to put duct tape over a person's mouth after they died.
It's been discussed here a lot.

Thanks I had to look up to remember what the topic was.

 

[legalmania]

I think had her body been in there decomposing and unwrapped in the bags, they would have found plenty to work with. Also would have found copious amounts of body fluid components in the carpet. They came back with a positive air sample from the body farm, which leads me to believe she was already in the bags.

I agree with you had her body been in there unwrapped there would have been more than one hair found. I think they would have found not only fluid but skin. However didn't Cindy clean the car before LE arrived? This could have destroyed a lot of evidence.

 

[legalmania]

We are heading OT,but there was a case in FL[Huck,I believe] that tried to say the tape may have been applied after death.The FL Supreme Court upheld that there would be no reasonable cause to put duct tape over a person's mouth after they died.
It's been discussed here a lot.

Would you happen to have a link to that case or at least the full case name? I would be interested in seeing what the case was about and what other cases were used.

 

[Harmony 2]

Even they couldn't pull DNA from the stain, wouldn't they be able to tell if it was made up of body fluid components?

The docs mention one volatile acid found in the trunk. Refer to this single post [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4241591&postcount=306"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Stain in Trunk May Show Outline of Child in the fetal position[/ame] for the information found here.

 

[MissJames]

Would you happen to have a link to that case or at least the full case name? I would be interested in seeing what the case was about and what other cases were used.

It's post #8 by Jolynna.It has the case info.


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86507&highlight=Huck

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

The docs mention one volatile acid found in the trunk. Refer to this single post Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Stain in Trunk May Show Outline of Child in the fetal position for the information found here.

That's air sample right?

 

[3doglady]

I think had her body been in there decomposing and unwrapped in the bags, they would have found plenty to work with. Also would have found copious amounts of body fluid components in the carpet. They came back with a positive air sample from the body farm, which leads me to believe she was already in the bags.

I was never clear on whether Caylee was in the laundry bag first or the plastic bags first. I've seen it described both ways. Anyone know?

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I keep wondering why SA questioned George and Cindy about their freezer in the garage. Wanted to know what they kept in it, how large it was, etc. And it makes me wonder because of this thread . . . What kind of stain or impression would a defrosting body make in the trunk? I know it's extremely morbid to think about but it may make some sense considering the difficulty all the people have had trying to describe the stain/impression, the difficulty in photographing it. Sorry if it's too gross a thought but I wondered if anyone else had made that connection. (Maybe I'm just having a really, really bad day!)

 

[3doglady]

I hated to think about the freezer too. But then CA said she sat items from the trunk on top of the freezer so I wondered if that had something to do with their questions.

 

[3doglady]

It's possible that the SA was questioning the contents of the freezer because KC had taken freezer pops from it the day she abandoned the car. The laundry bag and plastic bags were also in the garage so that places KC in the garage with access to those items.

 

[lizzysf]

It's possible that the SA was questioning the contents of the freezer because KC had taken freezer pops from it the day she abandoned the car. The laundry bag and plastic bags were also in the garage so that places KC in the garage with access to those items.

A bit O/T..but I bet it is freezer pop related.. In the interview w/ RM..they are asking him questions about some picture they are looking at.. it is of Casey and Caylee... LE says something like: Is that something she likes? Yeah, Casey would give her those on occasion..
I think it's related to trying to pin down a timeline of when the freezer pops were taken, and seeing Caylee alive in the picture eating a freezer pop.

 

[Harmony 2]

That's air sample right?

As bodies decompose, they leak five fatty acids into the ground beneath them. Each day after death, the various profiles of these acids will vary. Analysis of them can reveal the time of death, as well as pinpoint exactly how long any given body has been lying in a particular place. The soil can also reveal the presence of a corpse, even if the body itself has been removed or destroyed. The ''stain'' left by a body's volatile acids, which also suppresses plant life around it, can last for up to two years, leaving a kind of phantom fingerprint in the earth.

That information comes from this article I have posted before about the Body Farm. Warning: article is graphic...

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/03/m...ad-men-talking.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all


Then look at the attachment in this single post by me that speaks to the correlation between different techniques to determine PMI which lists LIBS seperately from VFA analysis…

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4247374&postcount=386"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Evidence[/ame]

 

[Sundance]

I was never clear on whether Caylee was in the laundry bag first or the plastic bags first. I've seen it described both ways. Anyone know?

Jan C. Garavaglia describes it as:

an intermingled mix of two black plastic large trash bags with yellow circular handles, a canvas style laundry bag, dirt, green and dried vegetative material, insects, pupae, multiple cloth letters, remnants of stitching with an attached garment tag, and a piece of stretchy synthetic paper/cloth, as well as human bones. Some of the bones were recovered intermixed with this material and some from within at least one of the black trash bags.

(BBM) So some of the bones were inside one of the black trash bags.

Then later Dr G says: Present inside this laundry bag are two fragments of black, gnarled plastic consistent with the black trash bags which were found entangled with this laundry bag.

Trash Bags:
The two plastic bags that were intertwined with the laundry bag and the other assorted leaf and vegetative material consist of a cinched trash bag at least 36 inches in length (bag was left cinched), while the other is an untied bag approximately 40 inches in length.

Both bags have a yellow plastic attached cinch tie. The one that is tied is tied with a single loop and two loose ends.

(BBM) So this sounds to me like Caylee was wrapped in the blanket (which Dr G later describes in the report), then placed in a black trash bag, the top was cinched shut, then placed into another black trash bag which was not cinched shut, then placed into the canvas bag.

Gary Utz, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, describes it in his report as:

" . . .a jumbled mass of two disrupted black garbage bags with yellow handle ties, a cylindrical fabric laundry bag, leaf litter, vines, soil and debris.

John J. Schultz, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of Anthropology UCF says:

On December 11, Dr. Utz and Dr. Schultz separated a light colored laundry bag from two black garbage bags with yellow pull ties. The two black bags were torn in multiple places and intermingled, and were partially within the laundry bag. The laundry bag contained a rigid metal rim, as seen on x-ray, around the opening. The black bags were positioned on top of the metal rim while a fold of the laundry bag was visible overlaying the top of the garbage bags.
<snipped>
In addition, although the black bags were torn, two hand bones were removed directly from the black bags.

(All Bold by me)

So I think she put her inside the bag, cinched it up, another bag, and then stuffed her into the laundry bag.

IMO

 

[lizzysf]

Jan C. Garavaglia describes it as:

an intermingled mix of two black plastic large trash bags with yellow circular handles, a canvas style laundry bag, dirt, green and dried vegetative material, insects, pupae, multiple cloth letters, remnants of stitching with an attached garment tag, and a piece of stretchy synthetic paper/cloth, as well as human bones. Some of the bones were recovered intermixed with this material and some from within at least one of the black trash bags.

(BBM) So some of the bones were inside one of the black trash bags.

Then later Dr G says: Present inside this laundry bag are two fragments of black, gnarled plastic consistent with the black trash bags which were found entangled with this laundry bag.

Trash Bags:
The two plastic bags that were intertwined with the laundry bag and the other assorted leaf and vegetative material consist of a cinched trash bag at least 36 inches in length (bag was left cinched), while the other is an untied bag approximately 40 inches in length.

Both bags have a yellow plastic attached cinch tie. The one that is tied is tied with a single loop and two loose ends.

(BBM) So this sounds to me like Caylee was wrapped in the blanket (which Dr G later describes in the report), then placed in a black trash bag, the top was cinched shut, then placed into another black trash bag which was not cinched shut, then placed into the canvas bag.

Gary Utz, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, describes it in his report as:

" . . .a jumbled mass of two disrupted black garbage bags with yellow handle ties, a cylindrical fabric laundry bag, leaf litter, vines, soil and debris.

John J. Schultz, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of Anthropology UCF says:

On December 11, Dr. Utz and Dr. Schultz separated a light colored laundry bag from two black garbage bags with yellow pull ties. The two black bags were torn in multiple places and intermingled, and were partially within the laundry bag. The laundry bag contained a rigid metal rim, as seen on x-ray, around the opening. The black bags were positioned on top of the metal rim while a fold of the laundry bag was visible overlaying the top of the garbage bags.
<snipped>
In addition, although the black bags were torn, two hand bones were removed directly from the black bags.

(All Bold by me)

So I think she put her inside the bag, cinched it up, another bag, and then stuffed her into the laundry bag.

IMO

The second garbage bag may have originally been cinched too but opened due to the water and/or animals. I bet she would have cinched both.