Stain in Trunk May Show Outline of Child**REVISIT FOR READING*

[Marigold]

After reading most of this thread in one sitting, I think that from early on, George knew that Caylee was dead and had been in the trunk. I think that Casey murdered Caylee but told George that it was an accident. I also think that Casey kept Caylee in the trunk for so long because she was waiting for George to figure out a way to bail her out.

Remember how he took the tow yard guy to look at the trunk with him to make sure that Caylee wasn't there? Imo, it was like he was trying to establish a witness at the time.

I don't think Cindy knew Caylee was dead when she made the first 911 call. I think George and Casey told her what had happened and I think that's when they all went into cover-up mode.

Because I'm up past my bedtime, I can't remember what George did after they picked up the car from the tow yard. (I know he claimed to go back to work at some point but was that ever verified?) Could it be that while Cindy was trying to find Casey, he was desperately working to clean out the stain in the trunk?

 

[CitizenKim]

There were no unidentified calls on her phone the evening of June 16. There were also no unidentified calls at the time she supposedly received a call from Caylee on July 15.

Yep. I think she was going to blame the lack of calls from the (imaginary) nanny on the "missing" black jack phone. She was desperately trying to come up w/some convoluted story in between dance parties. But the lack of calls would be explained by the "missing" phone.

That all got messed up when Amy busted her on July 15. She had to "think" fast and improvise. She HAD to say she had received a call from Caylee just that day in an attempt to calm Cindy down and perhaps explain her lack of emotion. Cindy was hysterical in that 911 call. When Casey gets on the phone she sounds bored or pizzed- the difference is striking.

 

[3doglady]

Jan C. Garavaglia describes it as:

an intermingled mix of two black plastic large trash bags with yellow circular handles, a canvas style laundry bag, dirt, green and dried vegetative material, insects, pupae, multiple cloth letters, remnants of stitching with an attached garment tag, and a piece of stretchy synthetic paper/cloth, as well as human bones. Some of the bones were recovered intermixed with this material and some from within at least one of the black trash bags.

(BBM) So some of the bones were inside one of the black trash bags.

Then later Dr G says: Present inside this laundry bag are two fragments of black, gnarled plastic consistent with the black trash bags which were found entangled with this laundry bag.

Trash Bags:
The two plastic bags that were intertwined with the laundry bag and the other assorted leaf and vegetative material consist of a cinched trash bag at least 36 inches in length (bag was left cinched), while the other is an untied bag approximately 40 inches in length.

Both bags have a yellow plastic attached cinch tie. The one that is tied is tied with a single loop and two loose ends.

(BBM) So this sounds to me like Caylee was wrapped in the blanket (which Dr G later describes in the report), then placed in a black trash bag, the top was cinched shut, then placed into another black trash bag which was not cinched shut, then placed into the canvas bag.

Gary Utz, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, describes it in his report as:

" . . .a jumbled mass of two disrupted black garbage bags with yellow handle ties, a cylindrical fabric laundry bag, leaf litter, vines, soil and debris.

John J. Schultz, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of Anthropology UCF says:

On December 11, Dr. Utz and Dr. Schultz separated a light colored laundry bag from two black garbage bags with yellow pull ties. The two black bags were torn in multiple places and intermingled, and were partially within the laundry bag. The laundry bag contained a rigid metal rim, as seen on x-ray, around the opening. The black bags were positioned on top of the metal rim while a fold of the laundry bag was visible overlaying the top of the garbage bags.
<snipped>
In addition, although the black bags were torn, two hand bones were removed directly from the black bags.

(All Bold by me)

So I think she put her inside the bag, cinched it up, another bag, and then stuffed her into the laundry bag.

IMO

Sundance, thanks for all the work you did to answer my question.

 

[s1rebecca]

Where are the results from the "little green machine" carpet cleaner they took and their vacuum cleaner. I don't beleive we have seen those yet.

 

[lizzysf]

I think she was in the laundry bag and garbage bags in the trunk..and there is no way she would have fit into the laundry bag unless curled into the fetal position. They found no body fluids in the trunk. I think outline was likely caused by moisture in the trunk air from the body which escaped through the tops of the garbage bags (drawstrings pulled tight but it's not exactly sealed persay). The moisture turned to condensation in the heated closed space and settled under the bag where the body lay. The odor also escaped from the bags the same way and permeated the interior of the trunk and car.

My bold. I have to correct myself. This makes more sense... The condensation did not settle UNDER the bag, but around the bag where the body lay. It seeped under the bag only to the point where the body stopped it. The outline of the body is around the body, not under the body (think about a vase on a dusty table, you lift up the vase and see the outline.. only in this case, it is moisture.) The carpet around the body would be affected by the chemicals released in the air from the body decomposing, which is brought down by the condensation. The body was in the bags already.

FBI Intelligence Analyst Karen B. Cowan wrote in an e-mail dated Tuesday, Sept. 30, 2008, that "a very interesting photo exists of the trunk liner, which you have, which highlights the very large stain. If you look closely at this photo, there appears to be the outline or silhouette of a child in the fetal position. You can make out what may be the back, bottom, and legs most clearly. The image is best viewed on a computer screen, rather than a printout, but several of us can see this image and agree there is good chance we are seeing something significant."

But two days later, on Oct. 2, FBI supervisory photographic technologist Richard W. Vorder Bruegge told Cowan the lab would not speculate about what left the image: "Others can draw their own conclusions about that."

The stain Cowan observed was found not to be caused by any biological liquid, such as blood or fluids from decomposition. No DNA was found in the stain
Again, because she was in the bags.

 

[celticthyme]

SNIPPED

Cindy was hysterical in that 911 call. When Casey gets on the phone she sounds bored or pizzed- the difference is striking.

The fact that George & Cindy did a "clean up" on the car, once it was home from the impound lot, . . . they knew something had happened., or they would not have bothered with it. We don't know all that they found or cleaned up, and probably never will.

I don't think Cindy got the full impact of it until she hear "I haven't seen Caylee for 31 days!"
Then the comment WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?? Then she called George, then they realized she had done something, but even then I don't think it entered their minds that Casey could have killed Caylee. LE showed up almost at the same time George did, so I don't think Casey ever had a chance to tell George what had happened ( nor would she) and by that time, Caylee's body had already been down the street for nearly a month. Probably nearly skeletanized by the time her family even knew about anything.

I think they all went into protect & cover up mode BIG TIME when Casey was arrested &around the time she was released from jail

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

My bold. I have to correct myself. This makes more sense... The condensation did not settle UNDER the bag, but around the bag where the body lay. It seeped under the bag only to the point where the body stopped it. The outline of the body is around the body, not under the body (think about a vase on a dusty table, you lift up the vase and see the outline.. only in this case, it is moisture.) The carpet around the body would be affected by the chemicals released in the air from the body decomposing, which is brought down by the condensation. The body was in the bags already.

FBI Intelligence Analyst Karen B. Cowan wrote in an e-mail dated Tuesday, Sept. 30, 2008, that "a very interesting photo exists of the trunk liner, which you have, which highlights the very large stain. If you look closely at this photo, there appears to be the outline or silhouette of a child in the fetal position. You can make out what may be the back, bottom, and legs most clearly. The image is best viewed on a computer screen, rather than a printout, but several of us can see this image and agree there is good chance we are seeing something significant."

But two days later, on Oct. 2, FBI supervisory photographic technologist Richard W. Vorder Bruegge told Cowan the lab would not speculate about what left the image: "Others can draw their own conclusions about that."

The stain Cowan observed was found not to be caused by any biological liquid, such as blood or fluids from decomposition. No DNA was found in the stain
Again, because she was in the bags.

So, is the outline filled in with the stain?

 

[lizzysf]

So, is the outline filled in with the stain?

What if the silhouette inside the outline is not the stain and all the trunk carpet exposed around the body is actually the stain or altered from the decomp gases being permeated into the carpet by condensation? The carpet under the bagged body would be protected...so it is not actually the stained part, but the unstained part.. hmmm... Like an optical illusion..

Stain may be the misleading word.. as opposed to exposed altered carpet and non-exposed non-altered carpet (under the body).

A silhouette is a view of an object or scene consisting of the outline and a featureless interior..wiki

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

What if the silhouette inside the outline is not the stain and all the trunk carpet exposed around the body is actually the stain or altered from the decomp gases being permeated into the carpet by condensation? The carpet under the bagged body would be protected...so it is not actually the stained part, but the unstained part.. hmmm... Like an optical illusion..

Stain may be the misleading word.. as opposed to exposed altered carpet and non-exposed non-altered carpet (under the body).

A silhouette is a view of an object or scene consisting of the outline and a featureless interior..wiki

I am sure if that were the case it would be stated as such in the documents.

 

[lizzysf]

I am sure if that were the case it would be stated as such in the documents.

It didn't really clarify, IMO. And they did not find that it was body fluids... so was it just an image rather than a stain?

But two days later, on Oct. 2, FBI supervisory photographic technologist Richard W. Vorder Bruegge told Cowan the lab would not speculate about what left the image: "Others can draw their own conclusions about that."

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

It didn't really clarify, IMO. And they did not find that it was body fluids... so was it just an image rather than a stain?

I have to admit your theory is best I have heard thus far! However, I don't think the stain had anything to do with Caylee.

 

[lizzysf]

I have to admit your theory is best I have heard thus far! However, I don't think the stain had anything to do with Caylee.

Just the gases from decay escaping the cinched bag top..mixing with moisture in the trunk (again from the body) and dropping all over the exposed carpet... well, at least that's my theory..
Anaerobic Organic Decomposition.
The products from the breakdown create acids, gases, and other products which cause volatile organic compounds (VOCs), and putrefactive effects. VOCs are produced during the early stages of human decomposition. Methane is also produced.

The inside of the trunk would be rainforest like conditions..
1. Hot
2. Humid
3. Lots of anaerobic decomp (which they said they found mostly in the air sample..body in the bag, in a trunk, very little oxygen)
Acid rain is a huge problem in rainforests for these reasons.
Acid rain is rain or any other form of precipitation that is unusually acidic, i.e. elevated levels of hydrogen ions (low pH). It has harmful effects on plants, aquatic animals, and infrastructure. Acid rain is mostly caused by emissions of compounds of sulfur, nitrogen, and carbon which react with the water molecules in the atmosphere to produce acids.
When these gases escape from the bag into the humid trunk air and fall in condensation...it is no different than acid rain.
So I do believe the exposed carpet could change in appearance saturated in these acids. Lighter perhaps than the silhouette?

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

Just the gases from decay escaping the cinched bag top..mixing with moisture in the trunk (again from the body) and dropping all over the exposed carpet... well, at least that's my theory..

Great guess! However, I believe when they talk about the stain they are referring to the actual stain itself being in the shape of a possible fetal position. And not the carpet all around the shape being stained.

 

[Daylight/1257]

Great guess! However, I believe when they talk about the stain they are referring to the actual stain itself being in the shape of a possible fetal position. And not the carpet all around the shape being stained.

A stain that is an image of a stain. How interesting.

 

[lizzysf]

A stain that is an image of a stain. How interesting.

No. I think you misinterpreted what I was saying.

 

[Heroine]

The fact that George & Cindy did a "clean up" on the car, once it was home from the impound lot, . . . they knew something had happened., or they would not have bothered with it. We don't know all that they found or cleaned up, and probably never will.

I don't think Cindy got the full impact of it until she hear "I haven't seen Caylee for 31 days!"
Then the comment WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?? Then she called George, then they realized she had done something, but even then I don't think it entered their minds that Casey could have killed Caylee. LE showed up almost at the same time George did, so I don't think Casey ever had a chance to tell George what had happened ( nor would she) and by that time, Caylee's body had already been down the street for nearly a month. Probably nearly skeletanized by the time her family even knew about anything.

I think they all went into protect & cover up mode BIG TIME when Casey was arrested &around the time she was released from jail

The way I see it is this, Cindy had a gut feeling something was terribly wrong with Caylee and Casey knew what it was, I mean it's not hard, just read some of the things Cindy says and does. Noone in their right mind would handle their child being missing for that long the way Casey did. And the so called theory that Cindy has where she believes she won't talk because shes looking out for them because she's afraid something will happen to them, well I'm sorry it wouldn't work for me and any logical person (if that ever happened) would tell someone right away (more than likely their mother) that their child was missing and ask for help.
Even so I believe that when they found that car both parents knew it was Caylee that they smelled (sorry to put it so vulgar) and even if Cindy ever told George or not that she knew, that's what the cleaning was all about. Also I noticed in the deposition that they asked her all the things she saw in the car and what she did with them. The strange thing to me is she remembered mostly all of the incriminating stuff but not much else. But she DID remember to wash those pants!
i meant to add that the smell is what made it all real to her at first and thats why in that 911 call she's so frantic. Then she came to another realization after the fact and thought about how this would look on her as a mother. Not to mention, I won't deny that I do feel as though Cindy loved her kids and Caylee for that matter, maybe Caylee more so and that leads me to this, what in the h*ll is all this jealousy crap as if these people are 10 years old or something. I hear that word thrown around a few times in that deposition even in that myspace message she sent to Casey which makes you know there that she suspected something and was trying to find a way to get Casey to tell her the truth.

 

[Amity]

Just the gases from decay escaping the cinched bag top..mixing with moisture in the trunk (again from the body) and dropping all over the exposed carpet... well, at least that's my theory..
Anaerobic Organic Decomposition.
The products from the breakdown create acids, gases, and other products which cause volatile organic compounds (VOCs), and putrefactive effects. VOCs are produced during the early stages of human decomposition. Methane is also produced.

The inside of the trunk would be rainforest like conditions..
1. Hot
2. Humid
3. Lots of anaerobic decomp (which they said they found mostly in the air sample..body in the bag, in a trunk, very little oxygen)
Acid rain is a huge problem in rainforests for these reasons.
Acid rain is rain or any other form of precipitation that is unusually acidic, i.e. elevated levels of hydrogen ions (low pH). It has harmful effects on plants, aquatic animals, and infrastructure. Acid rain is mostly caused by emissions of compounds of sulfur, nitrogen, and carbon which react with the water molecules in the atmosphere to produce acids.
When these gases escape from the bag into the humid trunk air and fall in condensation...it is no different than acid rain.
So I do believe the exposed carpet could change in appearance saturated in these acids. Lighter perhaps than the silhouette?

Thank you for this thorough explaination.
As I was reading it I likened it to my Aunt's home.
After her death we went in to pack up her belongings.
She lived in that home almost 30 years, windows closed, 3-pack a day smoker.
Every single picture we took off the wall revealed a perfect outline of the picture and it's frame.

What I always thought was a golden-colored wallpaper on those walls, was in fact nicotine stain.....everywhere except where the pictures were hung, protecting the once beautiful, creamy white embossed wallpaper behind the picture.

 

[lizzysf]

Thank you for this thorough explaination.
As I was reading it I likened it to my Aunt's home.
After her death we went in to pack up her belongings.
She lived in that home almost 30 years, windows closed, 3-pack a day smoker.
Every single picture we took off the wall revealed a perfect outline of the picture and it's frame.

What I always thought was a golden-colored wallpaper on those walls, was in fact nicotine stain.....everywhere except where the pictures were hung, protecting the once beautiful, creamy white embossed wallpaper behind the picture.

Exactly! If even just a theory..i'm glad you understood what I meant!

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Just the gases from decay escaping the cinched bag top..mixing with moisture in the trunk (again from the body) and dropping all over the exposed carpet... well, at least that's my theory..
Anaerobic Organic Decomposition.
The products from the breakdown create acids, gases, and other products which cause volatile organic compounds (VOCs), and putrefactive effects. VOCs are produced during the early stages of human decomposition. Methane is also produced.

The inside of the trunk would be rainforest like conditions..
1. Hot
2. Humid
3. Lots of anaerobic decomp (which they said they found mostly in the air sample..body in the bag, in a trunk, very little oxygen)
Acid rain is a huge problem in rainforests for these reasons.
Acid rain is rain or any other form of precipitation that is unusually acidic, i.e. elevated levels of hydrogen ions (low pH). It has harmful effects on plants, aquatic animals, and infrastructure. Acid rain is mostly caused by emissions of compounds of sulfur, nitrogen, and carbon which react with the water molecules in the atmosphere to produce acids.
When these gases escape from the bag into the humid trunk air and fall in condensation...it is no different than acid rain.
So I do believe the exposed carpet could change in appearance saturated in these acids. Lighter perhaps than the silhouette?

Wow lizzysf, you've put a lot of work into this!! And I didn't quite understand all of it until Amity's last post. And I really like it except for the fact that it would require that Caylee's body could be the only thing in the trunk during that entire process. While that certainly could be possible, I can't really see Casey taking everything else out; i.e., the blue collapsible basket, the wheel well cover (it would have made an outline too where it overlapped onto the carpeting in the trunk), etc. She certainly could have taken these things out and just put them in the back seat but it seem improbable. I can't think of any reason why she would have done that before putting the body in there. There was plenty of room for Caylee's little body without moving anything. But I'm bad at science and chemistry so please understand this is a handicapped observation.

 

[lizzysf]

Wow lizzysf, you've put a lot of work into this!! And I didn't quite understand all of it until Amity's last post. And I really like it except for the fact that it would require that Caylee's body could be the only thing in the trunk during that entire process. While that certainly could be possible, I can't really see Casey taking everything else out; i.e., the blue collapsible basket, the wheel well cover (it would have made an outline too where it overlapped onto the carpeting in the trunk), etc. She certainly could have taken these things out and just put them in the back seat but it seem improbable. I can't think of any reason why she would have done that before putting the body in there. There was plenty of room for Caylee's little body without moving anything. But I'm bad at science and chemistry so please understand this is a handicapped observation.

The rest of the things were in there too I am sure. They only commented on the point of interest... an outline of a body. Maybe there is more info to come later.