Parents of baby Lisa Press Release 10/21/11

[Niner]

How do they know it's a distraction? If the mother was blacked out and never checked on Lisa after 7 pm or so, the abductor had the run of the house for several hours and could have done unspeakable things. I would be beside myself if I had a child missing and cadaver dogs hit in my house.

going to jump off your thread - you gave me an idea... I've been

:fence: :fencefall: :fence: :fencefall: and now trying to climb back on... :crazy: :waitasec:


anyway... taking a bit of your post that I bolded - was the dog in the front with everyone while the 'drinking' went on?? If so, what if this "intruder" came in the back door - and did something terrible to Lisa in BD's bedroom - further from the front door. and... I don't know... just thinking out loud! that dog hitted on "death/decomp" in the bedroom sure wants me to climb off that fence...

 

[MsMacGyver]

For me it's always a bit ironic. As children we have all probably told a lie. Someone eats the last donut, took a candy bar from the store without paying.. etc. ( I did steal the candy bar and my Mom caught me and took me back so I could apologize and pay but I didn't eat the last donut, my brother did!...He fessed up..when he was 30!)....LOL

When we become parents we draw from our experience as children, most of us can tell when our kids are lieing. We watch these mothers stand in front of a camera and lie. Do they not realize how many people/parents are sitting in front of their TV's watching them speak? Sometimes our parental instincts are telling us this person is lieing. Mothers lieing in front of the camera while mothers are watching, asking themselves..Does this sound reasonable? When my kids were little would I have put them to bed at 6:30pm and broke out the bottle so I could get smashed?

Me Time...what is this? Oh I remember, that's when you get to take a bath without one of the kids banging on the door...MOM, I got to go PEE...LOL

Would I hide anything from LE when my childs life is at stake. Would I get tired during an interview and tell them I need a break? It's not meant to be judgemental, I'm really asking myself if this sounds reasonable. Later on I'm sitting on the jury, asking myself, does this sound reasonable...can you say deep dodo?

 

[SwampMama]

So we already know the decomp dogs "hit" on something in the mom's bedroom. Her lawyer (I think) said something to the effect that decomp doesn't happen that soon and dogs cant hit on it that quick so it must be something else.

BUT, I got to thinking.... I read an awful lot and read the true story of a cat named Oscar who lived in a nursing home. Well, Oscar was not a people person and had little to do with humans but he had the uncanny ability to be able to tell a when a elderly resident was going to die and would stay with them in their room until they died and were taken away. So he WAS able to detect that there was some difference in that human before they died. He could predict it and was never wrong. Staff came to depend on them to clue them in patients who would die in a few days.
Ok so I realize that they were natural deaths and not a sudden traumatic death like the baby would have had BUT the point is that there was a change and the cat was able to sense it. So if imminent death is detectable then I would think that death in it's earliest stages after occurring would also be detectable.
Just something to think about...

Also from this website: http://www.ilpwda.com/faqs.htm

"When would I use a search dog and when do I need a forensic evidence dog?

Obviously if you have an assumed live person you need search dogs. Searches for suicides or expected recently deceased persons should also use search dogs. Its a very good idea to use search dogs that have been imprinted on cadaver scent. Dogs that have never had any training on cadaver scent will sometimes act strange or will not know how to communicate their find. The handler does not see the " normal" behavior and may not recognize what the dog has found. Some dogs who have no training will avoid the deceased person. We are learning that at the moment of death changes in the body are occurring. Factors like heat and the condition of the body will also make a big difference in the decomposition. The training of a forensic evidence dog comes into play for cases like: buried bodies, disarticulation, old cases, bone searches, blood evidence, residual scents, crime scenes, building searches, and vehicle searches."

So at the moment of death, changes take place. Lisa's mom wasn't being very observant that night anyway so the baby could have been dead hours before she found her.

But if we believe that the changes take place that soon then does that mean the baby died on the floor?

This is all so frustrating. Finding the answer to one thing in this case (not that I am saying I had the answer) only leads to more questions.

 

[josie1986]

For me it's always a bit ironic. As children we have all probably told a lie. Someone eats the last donut, took a candy bar from the store without paying.. etc. ( I did steal the candy bar and my Mom caught me and took me back so I could apologize and pay but I didn't eat the last donut, my brother did!...He fessed up..when he was 30!)....LOL

When we become parents we draw from our experience as children, most of us can tell when our kids are lieing. We watch these mothers stand in front of a camera and lie. Do they not realize how many people/parents are sitting in front of their TV's watching them speak? Sometimes our parental instincts are telling us this person is lieing. Mothers lieing in front of the camera while mothers are watching, asking themselves..Does this sound reasonable? When my kids were little would I have put them to bed at 6:30pm and broke out the bottle so I could get smashed?

Me Time...what is this? Oh I remember, that's when you get to take a bath without one of the kids banging on the door...MOM, I got to go PEE...LOL

Would I hide anything from LE when my childs life is at stake. Would I get tired during an interview and tell them I need a break? It's not meant to be judgemental, I'm really asking myself if this sounds reasonable. Later on I'm sitting on the jury, asking myself, does this sound reasonable...can you say deep dodo?

:goodpost:

agree with you about "me time" for me thats either a soak in the tub or 5mins of silence wen the kids go to bed,definately doesnt involved anything DB has said.

 

[MsMacGyver]

going to jump off your thread - you gave me an idea... I've been

:fence: :fencefall: :fence: :fencefall: and now trying to climb back on... :crazy: :waitasec:


anyway... taking a bit of your post that I bolded - was the dog in the front with everyone while the 'drinking' went on?? If so, what if this "intruder" came in the back door - and did something terrible to Lisa in BD's bedroom - further from the front door. and... I don't know... just thinking out loud! that dog hitted on "death/decomp" in the bedroom sure wants me to climb off that fence...

There was a reporter who wondered the same thing. He stood at the back side of the house and you could hardly hear what he was saying because the dogs were barking, sounded like there was at least two dogs throwing a fit because he was back there...Pretty good thinking out loud I'd say...:rocker:

 

[MsMacGyver]

So we already know the decomp dogs "hit" on something in the mom's bedroom. Her lawyer (I think) said something to the effect that decomp doesn't happen that soon and dogs cant hit on it that quick so it must be something else.

BUT, I got to thinking.... I read an awful lot and read the true story of a cat named Oscar who lived in a nursing home. Well, Oscar was not a people person and had little to do with humans but he had the uncanny ability to be able to tell a when a elderly resident was going to die and would stay with them in their room until they died and were taken away. So he WAS able to detect that there was some difference in that human before they died. He could predict it and was never wrong. Staff came to depend on them to clue them in patients who would die in a few days.
Ok so I realize that they were natural deaths and not a sudden traumatic death like the baby would have had BUT the point is that there was a change and the cat was able to sense it. So if imminent death is detectable then I would think that death in it's earliest stages after occurring would also be detectable.
Just something to think about...

Also from this website: http://www.ilpwda.com/faqs.htm

"When would I use a search dog and when do I need a forensic evidence dog?

Obviously if you have an assumed live person you need search dogs. Searches for suicides or expected recently deceased persons should also use search dogs. Its a very good idea to use search dogs that have been imprinted on cadaver scent. Dogs that have never had any training on cadaver scent will sometimes act strange or will not know how to communicate their find. The handler does not see the " normal" behavior and may not recognize what the dog has found. Some dogs who have no training will avoid the deceased person. We are learning that at the moment of death changes in the body are occurring. Factors like heat and the condition of the body will also make a big difference in the decomposition. The training of a forensic evidence dog comes into play for cases like: buried bodies, disarticulation, old cases, bone searches, blood evidence, residual scents, crime scenes, building searches, and vehicle searches."

So at the moment of death, changes take place. Lisa's mom wasn't being very observant that night anyway so the baby could have been dead hours before she found her.

But if we believe that the changes take place that soon then does that mean the baby died on the floor?

This is all so frustrating. Finding the answer to one thing in this case (not that I am saying I had the answer) only leads to more questions.

:star:.........Great Post!

I'd say ALOT to think about...:waitasec:

I remember your story..My daughter and I wondered if the old people would throw things at the cat to keep him away....:floorlaugh:

I was wondering why Lisa would have been on the floor also...:waitasec:

What kind of floor covering do they have..carpet or hardwood? Could she have rolled off the bed and cracked her head on something? Someone up thread suggested CPR?

More questions yes, don't get frustrated...sooner or later more evidence will be found and the pieces will start to fit together. LE playing close to the vest but they seem to be following a trail...jmo

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

i agree, (parent finding their kid cold and still would still call 911-any hope no matter how foolish or futile to at least TRY to revive them.)this sadly the more and more days pass echos the fca story...i originally held out hope when this story broke, but as the days pass, im not feeling so good on this. i pray im wrong, but fear im not. turning on LE? again reminds me of some people in a very recent case..just MOO

I agree, I did this (well, called vets, not 911) when my rats died. I have a lot of experience caring for and evaluating rat's health and based on that I knew they were gone, but I called the vet and when I didn't get an answer I showed up in the middle of a snowstorm on the doorstep of one of the vets I work with, begging for help. :anguish: I didn't care that she knew I "should've" been able to see that we couldn't do anything for my little man. I just couldn't let him go without trying. :anguish:

 

[MsMacGyver]

:goodpost:

agree with you about "me time" for me thats either a soak in the tub or 5mins of silence wen the kids go to bed,definately doesnt involved anything DB has said.

Certainly days I would have liked to get drunk and black out!....:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[carole]

The dogs were not involved in the 17 hour search. They don't use dogs that way. The dogs were used for just a few minutes on Monday, which allowed them to get the warrant for the 17 hour search later in the week.

Actually, dogs were used in the search on Wed. Of course, they were not there for 17 hours as were the CSI techs. LE asked the media to stop their live feed during the time the dogs were at the house, and of course, they did. I was here on Websleuths watching the live feed.

LE has asked the court to seal the evidence found on Wed. so we don't know if the dogs alerted to anything on Wed.

 

[SwampMama]

I agree, I did this (well, called vets, not 911) when my rats died. I have a lot of experience caring for and evaluating rat's health and based on that I knew they were gone, but I called the vet and when I didn't get an answer I showed up in the middle of a snowstorm on the doorstep of one of the vets I work with, begging for help. :anguish: I didn't care that she knew I "should've" been able to see that we couldn't do anything for my little man. I just couldn't let him go without trying. :anguish:

It just seems like a no brainer, if you kid is ill or not responding... CALL 911 !! Of course that is what most people would do, even if they knew in their hearts it was too late. I have worked as a first responder and see firsthand how people react to the death of a loved one. They will beg you to do anything and (in fact unless it is abundantly clear that they have severe injuries incompatible with life or are still trapped) we do work on them and keep trying all the way to the hospital where the doctor takes over. We can't declare a death, only a doctor can.

But Lisa's mom was really drunk that night by here own admission. She might not have wanted to call because she knew it was too late for the baby and she didn't want to go to jail. She was drunk and drunks do dome stupid stuff. That ole "10 foot tall and bulletproof feeling".

Drunks feel they can anything so in their alcohol addled state, she figured she could pull off a cross between a Caylee Anthony and Haily Cummins type of story. After all, Casey got away with it with Caylee and Misty was never charged in connection with Hailey's disappearance.

It's quite possible the baby was overdosed with cold med to get her to sleep or maybe even given wine and mom knew she would be in BIG TROUBLE for that.

Those "disturbed areas of dirt" in the yard may have from trying to dig a hole for the baby but changing her mind instead. But they have a dog or two and it could have been from that also.

The CPR theory of how and why decomp would be on the floor is a great example of the incredible thinking that makes this site so great.


That's one thing I LOVE about this site; the meeting of minds and how everyone contributes their knowledge and theories. Keep up the great work!

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

It just seems like a no brainer, if you kid is ill or not responding... CALL 911 !! Of course that is what most people would do, even if they knew in their hearts it was too late. I have worked as a first responder and see firsthand how people react to the death of a loved one. They will beg you to do anything and (in fact unless it is abundantly clear that they have severe injuries incompatible with life or are still trapped) we do work on them and keep trying all the way to the hospital where the doctor takes over. We can't declare a death, only a doctor can.

But Lisa's mom was really drunk that night by here own admission. She might not have wanted to call because she knew it was too late for the baby and she didn't want to go to jail. She was drunk and drunks do dome stupid stuff. That ole "10 foot tall and bulletproof feeling".

Drunks feel they can anything so in their alcohol addled state, she figured she could pull off a cross between a Caylee Anthony and Haily Cummins type of story. After all, Casey got away with it with Caylee and Misty was never charged in connection with Hailey's disappearance.

It's quite possible the baby was overdosed with cold med to get her to sleep or maybe even given wine and mom knew she would be in BIG TROUBLE for that.

Those "disturbed areas of dirt" in the yard may have from trying to dig a hole for the baby but changing her mind instead. But they have a dog or two and it could have been from that also.

The CPR theory of how and why decomp would be on the floor is a great example of the incredible thinking that makes this site so great.


That's one thing I LOVE about this site; the meeting of minds and how everyone contributes their knowledge and theories. Keep up the great work!

I wonder if investigators could distinguish between whole dug with tools and one dug by dogs?

 

[SwampMama]

I think they could tell the difference between a hole dug by a dog and one that a human dug. We have a dog here who digs and DH gets so aggravated about it. I always lie and tell him that she didn't do it, that she was framed.

But he always knows she did it because of the claw marks from her toenails and the way the dirt is flung about (not to mention the guilty and dirt on her face) A human would dig a steeper, deeper hole with a neater pile for the dirt dug up, on the side.

 

[Chewy]

I think it should be obvious that a person with dogs in the yard is certainly not going to bury a dead body there because the dogs would dig it up.

I understand that if someone thought they had a chance with their baby and had just discovered them dead that they would do anything and beg and plead with 911.

The only thing in this situation is that when DB is saying she was drunk it seems too convenient for her as an alibi.

I can't understand how a mother could put down a 11 month old baby for 5 hours and never once check on the baby, especially if the baby was sick.

So if she didn't and she found her dead after 5 hours she would certainly be very dead and rigor mortis at that point. The mother may have realized it was hopeless.

 

[sunflowerchick]

I realize I am quite behind in this thread however I wanted to add my two cents. I know this has rapidly become unpopular opinion, but I still think the parents are being honest. I still think that while DB made some poor choices that night, she had nothing to do with the disappearance of Baby Lisa.

This press release just adds to my beliefs. Why say anything at all if they were guilty? Who was it that said a cadaver dog hit on the home? The media? LE? Point is, I think the media and LE are making a lot of statements in accusation of the family. That doesn't necessarily make them true, but I think if the family really is found to be innocent, they are owed one giant apology from everyone. If they aren't, well someone better get some good crow recipes ready for me.

 

[jjenny]

I realize I am quite behind in this thread however I wanted to add my two cents. I know this has rapidly become unpopular opinion, but I still think the parents are being honest. I still think that while DB made some poor choices that night, she had nothing to do with the disappearance of Baby Lisa.

This press release just adds to my beliefs. Why say anything at all if they were guilty? Who was it that said a cadaver dog hit on the home? The media? LE? Point is, I think the media and LE are making a lot of statements in accusation of the family. That doesn't necessarily make them true, but I think if the family really is found to be innocent, they are owed one giant apology from everyone. If they aren't, well someone better get some good crow recipes ready for me.

The information on dog hit came from a search warrant which are public information under MO laws. LE did not want to release that.

 

[sunflowerchick]

The information on dog hit came from a search warrant which are public information under MO laws. LE did not want to release that.

Thanks. Still could mean nothing, especially if it was only one dog. I believe dogs can make mistakes, lie detectors are flawed, and sometimes we just need to believe in innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Whether we think the parents are innocent or guilty, there is still a baby out there somewhere. The focus should be on finding her. Even if you believe the parents did something, they aren't going to 'fess up, so I think the focus should be on finding the baby first, find the suspect later. I think that was the whole point of the press release.

Sorry no snark intended. Just my opinion.

 

[katydid23]

I think they could tell the difference between a hole dug by a dog and one that a human dug. We have a dog here who digs and DH gets so aggravated about it. I always lie and tell him that she didn't do it, that she was framed.

But he always knows she did it because of the claw marks from her toenails and the way the dirt is flung about (not to mention the guilty and dirt on her face) A human would dig a steeper, deeper hole with a neater pile for the dirt dug up, on the side.

This whole digging thing makes me doubt that anyone tried to bury a body there. They had a labrador in that yard. Wouldn't that dog have 'undug' anything immediately? Especially if it smelled like the baby who lived inside the house?

Our German Shepherd goes on digging frenzies occasionally. My husband gets mad too. But like you said, the dirt that is flung every which way is a big tell.
She buries her bones that our neighbor gives her, then occasionally decides to dig them all up and makes a huge mess.

 

[jacy]

:goodpost:

agree with you about "me time" for me thats either a soak in the tub or 5mins of silence wen the kids go to bed,definately doesnt involved anything DB has said.

Isn't that the truth? Any adult time my husband and I have is basically saying 'goodnight' as we fall asleep. Forget the bath. My ten year old daughter hears the water running and immediately thinks, "Oooh, captive audience and I've got stories!" Who could say no to 5th grade drama?

My heart is really heavy for the big brothers & sweet Lisa on several levels.

 

[iWitness]

:
...I was wondering why Lisa would have been on the floor also...

I wonder "where" on the floor, IOW, what side of the bed? Depending on where the bed was situated in the room, maybe it was on the floor "behind" the bed, the side perhaps furthest from the bedroom door, in case one of the boys came in the room before someone could figure out what to do... Just a thought.

 

[Wendy101]

:
...I was wondering why Lisa would have been on the floor also...

I wonder "where" on the floor, IOW, what side of the bed? Depending on where the bed was situated in the room, maybe it was on the floor "behind" the bed, the side perhaps furthest from the bedroom door, in case one of the boys came in the room before someone could figure out what to do... Just a thought.

Just bouncing off your post...

Does anyone know if the blanket with cars design was found in Debrahs room?