Witness accounts

[cityslick]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/

check out video

Re: lady who saw two people running.

She completely changed her statement. At first she saw two running and then a fistfight, then she says they were 10 feet apart, then a third time she says she only saw one person and she really didn't see them, more heard them running

 

[jjenny]

Re: lady who saw two people running.

She completely changed her statement. At first she saw two running and then a fistfight, then she says they were 10 feet apart, then a third time she says she only saw one person and she really didn't see them, more heard them running

Of all the witnesses, her testimony was used in a affidavit by prosecution.
Even though it appears to be completely unreliable, since she admits she didn't have her contact lenses in.

 

[FasHawks8]

Welcome to WS...

I believe you misread what was stated...Unless she had been declared legally blind...I believe you missed the unless portion...

Eyewitness accounts are notoriously faulty...some who have been convicted due to an eyewitness account had been cleared by DNA...so I don't take too much stock in that being rock solid...

Thank you for the welcome! I love a well-moderated forum.
If I did misunderstand that I apologize. If the witness did see two figures running that could still be valueable if it helped explain any movements of the two men in the missing 80-90 seconds. Depending on where she lives of course.
I read 'unless' as leaving open the poss that the witness is in fact legally blind. The witnessed stated she could not see well because her contacts were out, implying she can see perfectly fine with corrective lenses. The legally blind still have 20/200 or worse after corrective lenses.
Btw, I only know all this because my vision is naturally 20/220. I told someone once I thought I was legally blind and they let me know since contacts/glasses work I was no such thing!

And yes eyewitness accounts are notorious. I've heard gangsters in Chicago would shoot people in front of crowded movie theatres. Which sounds nuts, but they were counting on conficting accounts to get them off scot-free.

 

[AJ Noiter]

For those who feel TM was not afraid think about the fact that he was a very young black male on his way home alone in the dark, it's raining, in the deep south and he has a white man following him. What do you think was going through his mind. Has anyone watched some of the terror movies that are being released today? I'd be surprised if he were not afraid. But we know he said he was, he told his gf. Whether or not it's what "normal" boys don't do....he did it so that tells me he was really afraid of this man.

Why is it so easy to get into this young man's head and decide he aggressively attacked GZ, jumped from the shadows....oh, no that can't be right because we have a witness who said GZ asked TM, what are you doing here. So it's easy to do that but he can't be afraid because that would not be macho. But wait, he was not, he was still a kid. He was not 28 years old. We did not see GZ hiding, did we. Nope he just ran right after him as if he could not catch up with him fast enough.

Of the two, GZ getting out of the car and following shows more aggression on his part than TM hiding watch GZ run to the next street and return. GF said TM said, "he found me." Does not sound like TM jumped out at anyone. jmo

Sorry for moving to this thread, I felt it had more to do with witness accounts than the Stand Your Ground thread.

I'm not seeing how "scary movies" ties into this case, could you explain?
The same witness you semi-quote also says that Mr. Martin asked the first question. Is it not possible that Mr. Martin came OUT of his hiding place to ask that question? - See next point.
I do not recall the girlfriend ever uttering these words, do you have a source? I recall she said that the "stranger was getting closer" but does not say what that means exactly - my estimation is that Mr. Martin (in his hiding place) saw Mr. Zimmerman returning to his vehicle.

 

[LambChop]

Sorry for moving to this thread, I felt it had more to do with witness accounts than the Stand Your Ground thread.

I'm not seeing how "scary movies" ties into this case, could you explain?
The same witness you semi-quote also says that Mr. Martin asked the first question. Is it not possible that Mr. Martin came OUT of his hiding place to ask that question? - See next point.
I do not recall the girlfriend ever uttering these words, do you have a source? I recall she said that the "stranger was getting closer" but does not say what that means exactly - my estimation is that Mr. Martin (in his hiding place) saw Mr. Zimmerman returning to his vehicle.

We all have not been trained in hand-to-hand combat, self defense methods or how to handle a gun for protection to the point we become fearless. Some of us just do not have that experience. Most 17 year old high school students do not have that experience as well. People are different. TM was raised by his mother and she is a gentle woman. Her oldest son appears to be just as gentle in his speech as his mother. Chance are TM was the same. Maybe he wanted to be a lot tougher than he was, maybe he talked tough but I believe the gf when she said he said he was afraid of this crazy man. There have been some horrific people lately who have been charged with crimes against children. I'm sure TM could read the papers, too. Watched the news.

http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=trayvon+martin+he+found+me

And you wonder why they are afraid??????? Good lord, what is wrong with people. jmo

 

[CathyinTexas]

Maybe he talked with GZ and was influenced by what GZ said to him. We do know there was no cement head banging where TM's body was found because his body was too far away from the sidewalk for that to have happened. So if this witness said he saw it, well, he knows know he didn't. That might have been a reason to sit down and rethink about what he saw compared to what GZ told him or what he overheard. jmo

I want to know if "John" or any of the other witnesses knew GZ. If so, they could be biased. Heck, Francis wasn't there but he believes everything GZ told him. Just saying.

 

[CathyinTexas]

"Could you tell if the color of the shirt was black or white or red or green?"

That doesn't sound very leading to me, it seems like they're trying to extrapolate any and all information they can. Given what the mother says, he STILL didn't say it was red - which is stated in the very article where that video is. She also doesn't say that the investigator gave a wink or a nod, etc or any indication that RED was the answer, yet ON CAMERA he said it was red. Spin it however you like but trying to get as much information as possible isn't "leading" and we still have NO evidence that the officer TOLD him what color the shirt was.

Couple other things odd about this witness specifically: The mother complained that detectives didn't contact her for 5 days, so what did she do? Scheduled the interview for 3 days later. The mother says the investigators said "he didn't shoot in self defense" yet there's no reports of them saying this to anyone else, at any time.

I think what another poster said about the fact they didn't include the color of Trayvon's hoodie is telling. It was young boy, for pete's sake, and he could be confused if not given all color possibilities. I also don't think that was an honest mistake. mo

 

[CathyinTexas]

Do they say how they got this number? He doesn't look to be 200 lb. Did they actually weight him or do they just assume he was 200 lb?

I suppose they weigh the perps and measure their height at time of arrest.

 

[AJ Noiter]

We all have not been trained in hand-to-hand combat, self defense methods or how to handle a gun for protection to the point we become fearless. Some of us just do not have that experience. Most 17 year old high school students do not have that experience as well. People are different. TM was raised by his mother and she is a gentle woman. Her oldest son appears to be just as gentle in his speech as his mother. Chance are TM was the same. Maybe he wanted to be a lot tougher than he was, maybe he talked tough but I believe the gf when she said he said he was afraid of this crazy man. There have been some horrific people lately who have been charged with crimes against children. I'm sure TM could read the papers, too. Watched the news.

http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=trayvon+martin+he+found+me

And you wonder why they are afraid??????? Good lord, what is wrong with people. jmo

I'm still not seeing how watching a scary movie is any indication of how people REALLY react to "scary" situations. I'm also not seeing a video in your link, which is really just a search engine, where the girlfriend stated "he found me" as a quote. I'm not even seeing the words "he found me" in the results at all and I did look through 3 pages of videos. Would you mind being more specific? I'm going to listen to the nearly-30-minute audio of the "girlfriend's" account again, but I'm fairly certain she never said those words.

 

[CathyinTexas]

Yea, if you going to throw out statements from people who know GZ than you have to throw out the GF's statement due to bias.

I don't agree. She was the last person who spoke to Trayvon and was speaking with him at the time of the confrontation. GZ committed a crime, so I think it is relevant if the witnesses knew him or not. As others have said, the GF could have embellished her story, but she didn't. I didn't say that they can't be used as witnesses at trial, but I would want to know if the witness was a friend of GZ.

 

[AJ Noiter]

I think what another poster said about the fact they didn't include the color of Trayvon's hoodie is telling. It was young boy, for pete's sake, and he could be confused if not given all color possibilities. I also don't think that was an honest mistake. mo

We don't know exactly what the investigator said. The mother made an estimation of what the investigator said, unless, as stated previously, the investigator spoke in 3rd person.

However, even then it would be overlooked by the court as per:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading_question

Some exceptions to the no-leading-questions rule

Where the witness is hostile to the examiner, or reluctant or unwilling to testify, in which situation the witness is unlikely to accept being "coached" by the questioner.
To bring out preliminary matters (name, occupation, and other pedigree information).
Where the memory of the witness has been exhausted and there is still information to be elicited.
In a sensitive area, to avoid the witness from testifying to incompetent or prejudicial matter.

And then I would still argue that it's not really leading as multiple options are available as well as the option to say "I didn't see a color" - which, again, is what the mother said he continually told the investigators. She never says he gave in to the questioning, regardless of how the question was posed.

 

[LambChop]

All the witnesses who stepped outside that night after the shooting knew what GZ was wearing. jmo

 

[jjenny]

I don't agree. She was the last person who spoke to Trayvon and was speaking with him at the time of the confrontation. GZ committed a crime, so I think it is relevant if the witnesses knew him or not. As others have said, the GF could have embellished her story, but she didn't. I didn't say that they can't be used as witnesses at trial, but I would want to know if the witness was a friend of GZ.

Unless you were there you have no way of knowing whether g/f embellished the story or not.

 

[Reader]

It's very interesting to me that these 4 witnesses changed their stories after being interviewed by FDLE or the SA's office:

But when speaking to a Florida Department of Law Enforcement official later.......

Six days later, in a recorded session with prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda.........

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/05/23...-stories/?iid=nf-article-latest#ixzz1vk6t2z00

It seems they found out this was a much more serious situation with the state of Fl. powers involved, rather than just SPD. Probably had fears of being charged with perjury. Backing up GZ's stories no longer that important to them, lol....

 

[lauriej]

Do they say how they got this number? He doesn't look to be 200 lb. Did they actually weight him or do they just assume he was 200 lb?

--i don't know how they arrived at 200 lbs for george the night of the shooting----but, we do "know" from his friends/family that he lost weight due to stress etc while in hiding initially-----and he weighed in 15 lbs lighter, @ 185 lbs when arrested/booked in weeks later on april 11th.

--i would say the 200lbs for feb.26th was probably accurate then.

 

[jjenny]

It's very interesting to me that these 4 witnesses changed their stories after being interviewed by FDLE or the SA's office:



Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/05/23...-stories/?iid=nf-article-latest#ixzz1vk6t2z00

It seems they found out this was a much more serious situation with the state of Fl. powers involved, rather than just SPD. Probably had fears of being charged with perjury. Backing up GZ's stories no longer that important to them, lol....

How did the one who initially claimed to have seen two guys running backed up GZ' story? Prosecution used her story to get Zimmerman arrested. Turns out what she saw was a "glance." Why did prosecution put into affidavit a story from a witness who appears to be so unsure about what she saw?

 

[LambChop]

How did the one who initially claimed to have seen two guys running backed up GZ' story? Prosecution used her story to get Zimmerman arrested. Turns out what she saw was a "glance." Why did prosecution put into affidavit a story from a witness who appears to be so unsure about what she saw?

Well, only one running then the shooting never happened. Obviously one got away if only one were running. I think the important part of her statement is that GZ never said he ran, never said he moved from the spot TM was banging his head on the cement. jmo

 

[Reader]

How did the one who initially claimed to have seen two guys running backed up GZ' story? Prosecution used her story to get Zimmerman arrested. Turns out what she saw was a "glance." Why did prosecution put into affidavit a story from a witness who appears to be so unsure about what she saw?

I've posted a link before where it was stated that GZ's 'inconsistent statements' led to his charge. Prosecution is required to take statements from all witnesses, whether they are unsure or not. But what she says still conflicts with what GZ said and may be used if the prosecution finds her credible.

 

[suzihawk]

The defense attorney said Zimmerman told him his fliers were mentioned at the community forum. But contrary to what Zimmerman’s mother testified at his bond hearing, O’Mara said, he did not receive any special commendation from the mayor at the forum.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/...-cops-ripped.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

​

 

[persnickety]

The defense attorney said Zimmerman told him his fliers were mentioned at the community forum. But contrary to what Zimmerman’s mother testified at his bond hearing, O’Mara said, he did not receive any special commendation from the mayor at the forum.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/...-cops-ripped.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

​

It appears this family and the truth are strangers.



my opinion only