CO - Dylan Redwine - Forensics Discussion- *WARNING!* MAY INCLUDE GRAPHIC DETAILS

[La Louve]

Quoted from Mitsana: Wow! Thanks so much for finding that for me. (BTW, the reference in the video occurs at 1:30).

I have a hard time believing that actually happened (finding a finger tip+nail in scat and after 7 months), or am I off base and that can actually happen? Or did LE just say that to MR to judge his reaction? Or is MR just plain wrong?

Very small bones can sometimes be passed through relatively whole in canid scat. Once the scat itself is washed away by the weather over a period of time, what will remain is the bones.

While out at Whitney's Garden last week I found coyote scat with intact small bones in it - maybe from a mouse or a bird. I'll edit this post to add the photos I took for this thread. ETA: Well shoot, I just remembered I left my phone (w/photos) at a friend's house last night, so I won't be able to add the photos for a while yet.

I keep thinking Dylan may have been placed under a tree, in an exposed root system, possibly an old coyote den. Some place in the woods that would have kept his remains somewhat protected. The terrain is steep enough that such an exposed tree root system could be found without too much searching. Is it possible his remains were not disturbed by animals until the spring? ETA I would be curious to know how weathered the bones were.

Poor Dylan. This is not a fit way to have to speak about the end of someone's life.

 

[Mitsana]

Quoted from Mitsana: Wow! Thanks so much for finding that for me. (BTW, the reference in the video occurs at 1:30).

I have a hard time believing that actually happened (finding a finger tip+nail in scat and after 7 months), or am I off base and that can actually happen? Or did LE just say that to MR to judge his reaction? Or is MR just plain wrong?

Very small bones can sometimes be passed through relatively whole in canid scat.

While out at Whitney's Garden last week I found coyote scat with intact small bones in it - maybe from a mouse or a bird. I'll edit this post to add the photos I took for this thread.

The part that I found unbelievable is the (attached) nail. Just finding a nail seems unbelievable to me. Finding it attached to anything seems even more impossible to me. Fingernails aren't attached to bone, so there would need to be flesh present. And again, not only was it in scat, but it was after 7 months.

 

[La Louve]

The part that I found unbelievable is the (attached) nail. Just finding a nail seems unbelievable to me. Finding it attached to anything seems even more impossible to me. Fingernails aren't attached to bone, so there would need to be flesh present. And again, not only was it in scat, but it was after 7 months.

I agree. The only remains I have ever seen with finger/toenails still attached were in ancient Egyptian mummies.

 

[song22]

Here Mark gave us a description of where the remains were found. The article is dated the day LE gave the presser. Even though Mark met with LE that day, Mark stated later he wanted to go the place where Dylan was found because he didn't know the specific location.

“All they know is that he was for a lack of better terms, mangled by wild animals. Geographically, Middle Mountain is basically directly across the street from my house,” Mark said. “So it wouldn't take long to walk out the front door and be... It was right below the road there.”[/B]

http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S3082148.shtml?cat=504

Umm. What is he talking about there with the Bolded. The part about walking out the front door? Who walked? Could you easily walk from MR's front door to the spot where Dylan's remains were found? Is this true? Is this MR's leakage again?

 

[Mitsana]

(MR: "So it wouldn't take long to walk out the front door and be... It was right below the road there.") (from: http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S....shtml?cat=504)

(It looks like you didn't quite bold the part you meant to bold...)

Umm. What is he talking about there with the Bolded. The part about walking out the front door? Who walked? Could you easily walk from MR's front door to the spot where Dylan's remains were found? Is this true? Is this MR's leakage again?

The location was ten driving miles from MR's house, which looks like it is less than 2 miles as the crow flies to me. I believe Bender mentioned in the presser that the remains were found in a location where one could see the subdivision where MR's house is located. If animals do normally drag things upslope, it might have originally been even closer. So the distance is quite easily walkable (the terrain might be a different matter).

(But regarding the part you did actually bold...)

The aspect of that quote that seems notable to me is that it seems to pinpoint a location... at a time he shouldn't have known the exact location... Does it sound like that to other people? ("It was right below the road there.")

 

[Ghostwheel]

(MR: "So it wouldn't take long to walk out the front door and be... It was right below the road there.") (from: http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S....shtml?cat=504)

(It looks like you didn't quite bold the part you meant to bold...)



The location was ten driving miles from MR's house, which looks like it is less than 2 miles as the crow flies to me. I believe Bender mentioned in the presser that the remains were found in a location where one could see the subdivision where MR's house is located. If animals do normally drag things upslope, it might have originally been even closer. So the distance is quite easily walkable (the terrain might be a different matter).

(But regarding the part you did actually bold...)

The aspect of that quote that seems notable to me is that it seems to pinpoint a location... at a time he shouldn't have known the exact location... Does it sound like that to other people? ("It was right below the road there.")

Jumping off your post. Here I am being picky again. The actual location has not been released. It has always been implied that the remains were found UP on the mountain (since Mark had to go up to the mountain to see where the remains were found). It is my belief that when Mark refers to "It was right below the road there", he was talking about it being right below the road on Middle Mountain. That's up a steep hill.

Over on the walking thread in this post of mine: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9635427&postcount=73"]Post #73[/ame], I did some calculations using my guess of the location based on pictures and such (and the figures aren't going to be much different no matter where Dylan was on the mountain unless he was much higher up) which show it wasn't likely that Dylan (or anyone else) just took a walk up the 23% mountain grade. And that is what I think Mark was implying, that Dylan just took a walk out the door and Voila, in no time ended up on the mountain. Where something happened to him. Not likely, by me.

Responding to this post, it is a 1400 foot elevation gain to get right above Mark's house on Middle Mountain road. I seriously doubt an animal is going to drag a body up a 23% slope for about 6100 ft (1400 rise and a 6000 ft run = approx 6161 ft) The bear in the above pdf only made it 200 meters (about 650 ft)

All MOO of course.

 

[Lordeebee]

The part that I found unbelievable is the (attached) nail. Just finding a nail seems unbelievable to me. Finding it attached to anything seems even more impossible to me. Fingernails aren't attached to bone, so there would need to be flesh present. And again, not only was it in scat, but it was after 7 months.

So, coyote scat right? I don't pretend to understand much about these discussions but...

* how would coyote scat weather for 7 months?
* could it have been frozen under the snow?
* if it was frozen under the snow, then could the finger tip have been preserved as well?

OR

* could the body itself (or portions of it) been preserved, frozen under snow and possibly buried in a clandestine grave, and the wildlife scavenging began more recently in Spring?

In the second case, wouldn't it be more plausible to find coyote scat fresh enough to find a human fingertip not fully decomposed?

 

[katydid23]

I wish we had a better understanding of exactly HOW and Where the remains were located. Were they ALL down at the bottom of the cliff in the culvert? Or were some up the mountain further?

 

[pinto]

So, coyote scat right? I don't pretend to understand much about these discussions but...

* how would coyote scat weather for 7 months?
* could it have been frozen under the snow?
* if it was frozen under the snow, then could the finger tip have been preserved as well?

OR

* could the body itself (or portions of it) been preserved, frozen under snow and possibly buried in a clandestine grave, and the wildlife scavenging began more recently in Spring?

In the second case, wouldn't it be more plausible to find coyote scat fresh enough to find a human fingertip not fully decomposed?

I don't know about coyote scat, but I can tell you what dog poop does after being under snow for months. Snow melts from the ground up, so it doesn't just sit there and stay frozen, because there would be melt-freeze cycles going on all the time and snowmelt/water soaking the scat. Old dog poop, when the snow in my yard finally melts, is white-ish and crumbly because of this.

Also, once in the mountains I found a piece of scat impaled on a small stick or piece of straw. I don't know why I noticed it, but it was so odd. I have a photo somewhere. I realized it had probably been eliminated on top of the snow, and as the snow melted, the scat lowered down onto the stick. It was literally poop on a stick. I'm not sure if this could have happened in this case, but who knows. (ie, the scat happened on top of the snow and eventually the snow melted and the scat ended up on the finger.)

 

[DylansMom34]

I was thinking about how LE has stated that about a homicide, and how they could make that determination. Either something at the house, or something at the location of the remains (or maybe both).

I was thinking about Dylan's shirt (pieces of shirt, or entire shirt), I'm wondering if the shirt would show if Dylan had been drug on the ground. I also am curious, if Dylan had been drugged, by chloroform or something else, could something like that get caught into the material fibers?

 

[Ghostwheel]

I wish we had a better understanding of exactly HOW and Where the remains were located. Were they ALL down at the bottom of the cliff in the culvert? Or were some up the mountain further?

LE has never said that any bones were even found in the culvert shown by the helicopter. The helicopter showing that area implied that something was found there. I think it was Mark who made comments about what was found, but I don't recall LE ever saying anything about what was found. But they didn't say that area was not where anything was found either.

In any case, that culvert may not have been at the bottom of a "cliff" per se, but at the base of a steep hill off the road where the culvert runs underneath. They are completely different things, so I agree it would be helpful to know where the location was.

 

[Sasquatch]

Sasquatch, thank you for sharing all of this great information! I have bookmarked the threads you suggested here at WS.

In your opinion or from what I am gathering...the turnaround may have been the original site where Dylan's body was placed. The remains may have been scattered 1.5 miles south of the turnaround? The PDF you provided above seems to go with this theory as we have been told larger bones such as a femur and clavicle were found. A finger with the nail still attached was allegedly found in coyote feces. I am now wondering if LE found a coyote den south of the turnaround. I'm also wondering if LE believes some of Dylan's remains ended up in the lake and this is why they believe they have found all they're going to find?

IMO, DR was murdered at a different location and dumped into a clandestine grave within a few hundred feet above the 10 mile turnout. FBI statistics (which can be found in the SAR PDF file) show that these graves are usually shallow. If it stayed frozen up at that elevation all Winter, then part of his remains might have been preserved through the Winter time and the scavengers started on his body when things thawed out. Some of the Spring snow melt might have washed away the topsoil/cover from above the grave. I do not think that any of his body parts got washed down to the lake. I agree with the theory, that someone posted earlier, about his belongings being thrown into the river or lake. There is a bridge that has to be crossed to go to Middle Mountain Road, from MR's house.

 

[Sasquatch]

So, coyote scat right? I don't pretend to understand much about these discussions but...

* how would coyote scat weather for 7 months?
* could it have been frozen under the snow?
* if it was frozen under the snow, then could the finger tip have been preserved as well?

OR

* could the body itself (or portions of it) been preserved, frozen under snow and possibly buried in a clandestine grave, and the wildlife scavenging began more recently in Spring?

In the second case, wouldn't it be more plausible to find coyote scat fresh enough to find a human fingertip not fully decomposed?

I was thinking the second case too! I am sure that things stay frozen longer at higher elevations! When the 5,300 year old Otzi the Iceman was discovered, they found one fingernail on him. So with certain conditions, it is possible to have a fingernail preserved.

 

[La Louve]

I was thinking the second case too! I am sure that things stay frozen longer at higher elevations! When the 5,300 year old Otzi the Iceman was discovered, they found one fingernail on him. So with certain conditions, it is possible to have a fingernail preserved.

Oh I forgot about Otzi! Yes, he was basically mummified in the ice.

And theorized to have been murdered, too.

 

[northxnorthwest]

What if food/meat was placed nearby/on Dylan's body on purpose to attract animals on purpose to spread around/hide the remains.

 

[katydid23]

I am very curious what the dumpsite was like on November 18th/19th. Were there many hikers/campers/ATVers up and around there in the early morning hours ? Would someone have been noticed going up there at sunrise?

Is it possible to make that trip up the mountain in the dark of night? I guess if you are desperate and stressed and motivated to save your own skin, anything is possible?

 

[cluciano63]

I am very curious what the dumpsite was like on November 18th/19th. Were there many hikers/campers/ATVers up and around there in the early morning hours ? Would someone have been noticed going up there at sunrise?

Is it possible to make that trip up the mountain in the dark of night? I guess if you are desperate and stressed and motivated to save your own skin, anything is possible?

I thought we had read that most camping areas were not open after September? I could be wrong. But November can be pretty heavy weather in that area. I doubt there were many tourists other than at ski lodges in Durango, jmo.

 

[jjenny]

What if food/meat was placed nearby/on Dylan's body on purpose to attract animals on purpose to spread around/hide the remains.

Human body in itself is made of meat. No need to place anything on the body to attract wild life.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I am very curious what the dumpsite was like on November 18th/19th. Were there many hikers/campers/ATVers up and around there in the early morning hours ? Would someone have been noticed going up there at sunrise?

Is it possible to make that trip up the mountain in the dark of night? I guess if you are desperate and stressed and motivated to save your own skin, anything is possible?

Wasn't it unseasonably warm? I could have sworn on one of the very early threads that being discussed. I'm unable to do an advanced search on my phone and I can't see threads that old. But I'm almost 100% positive it's there somewhere.

 

[jjenny]

Wasn't it unseasonably warm? I could have sworn on one of the very early threads that being discussed. I'm unable to do an advanced search on my phone and I can't see threads that old. But I'm almost 100% positive it's there somewhere.

As I recall, it wasn't all that unreasonably warm. Which is why MR was complaining Dylan didn't have a coat with him.