GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

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Waiting to see if MacDonald and Keast hold a presser.
So far I haven't found anything.
 
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Fear that the public/media will investigate and find out. Identifying jurors after a trial isn't a new thing.
Plus it's not a big place. People talk. Jurors have to face their peers and the direct and indirect victims every day.
 
The jury foreperson who read the verdicts sure was confident in her delivery.
Good for her and she sounds like one of the younger jurors.
Curious what her background is and if any of the jurors had children attending K-12?

 
The jury foreperson who read the verdicts sure was confident in her delivery.
Good for her and she sounds like one of the younger jurors.
Curious what her background is and if any of the jurors had children attending K-12?
This article provides details about each of the jurors.

 
I'm sure some of the jury started the trial thinking that as gun-owners themselves, they would need to be extra careful to get this verdict right.

What perhaps pushed them toward guilty? Maybe it was her coldness and "Why? Why?" (should we stay with you, son) portion of the police station video.
Or perhaps her testimony that she wouldn't change her parenting if she could go back in time. I think few can actually relate to or sympathize with her.
I would have found her guilty because she clearly knew her child was a threat. I know she knew that because, while almost all of us would assume our child was a victim of a shooting, she never considered that. That says she had the information needed to conclude he was a threat and chose to do nothing.

She ignored her child saying he was hallucinating, but was okay with giving him a gun as a gift and going to the gun range with him so that he could practice.

She wasn't vigilant about how the gun was stored. The lock box's code was the default 0000 code. It would not have mattered because Ethan himself said the gun was not locked. But, ofc, that part was not heard by the jury. But they were shown where the gun safety mechanism was still in the packaging/not being used.

You have a mentally ill son in the house, you should not even bring guns into the home, but if you do, lock it up properly and NOT with the default code. I don't care if she was not the one who went to the store and bought it. All of us should know how and where a gun is stored and that it is safe, if we are going to have one in our home.

She contradicted herself on the stand when she said that when she heard about the shooting, she sent that text saying not to do it because she thought he was about to unalive himself. She said she didn't think he was going to get the gun to harm anyone else, but to harm himself. She then said, inside of the same sentence, that she thought he was going to harm himself because that's what school shooters do. This still acknowledges that she knew he was the shooter, no matter the convoluted way she attempted to dismiss it.

Finally, despite being the ones who knew that Ethan had access to a gun, upon seeing the picture he drew of himself holding a gun that looks like his own gun, his parents did not check to make sure the gun was not on him. Or in his locker. They didn't go home to make sure the gun was where it should be. They argued w/faculty and refused to take him out of school. Not to mention his mom laughed about him looking up bullets when that was reported by the school.

Ethan literally could not have done this without his parents. They supplied the gun and the lessons. They ignored his cries for mental health help. They downplayed the school's concerns. They did absolutely nothing to prevent the shooting from becoming the ultimate outcome. I don't see how it's possible that they are not guilty.

My opinion is not an emotional one and it is highly offensive for people to suggest that. If you are worried about having to face charges for your underage child's criminal actions, I have to worry that you are a bad parent. We all do because we all have to go out into the world where your kids are. We all have to send our kids to these schools. (And I am using 'you' in a general sense.)

I think this jury got it right and I would have voted the same way. Hopefully the parents who are worried are making sure that their guns are safe and their kids' cries for help are not being ignored.
 
A couple things that may have influenced the guilty verdict:

1. Her testimony. She was indignant and said she wouldn’t change a thing!

2. The “Don’t do it” text she sent EC after she left the school. Don’t do what??? State failed to hammer this but it’s a very incriminating piece of evidence against her.

3. When she slipped up and said “we took his gun away the night before” and then lied and said she didn’t say that. That’s the strongest piece of evidence that the gun was probably in EC’s possession the night before.

4. If he never had possession of the gun like she claimed, how did he get it that morning to take to school? Makes no sense. He had the gun with him all along and they never thought to check at the school once they were called. And just left like ‘whatever.’ Then as soon as they heard about the shooting THEY KNEW IT WAS HIM!!! How?? Suggests they had considered it prior to the shooting.

JMO
 
Well: this is going to get interesting....
Yes. And I thought the defense did a good job pointing out some of them. Even a good parent doesn't always know what their kids are doing behind their back. I know she was checked out of her kids life and just ignored him. But this is a concern for a parents in the future. Kids get mad at their parents are liable to text anything. If its not true it can and will be used against the parent.
Meta, Google, X and others have lots of algorithms devoted to internet filtering and states have enacted laws to ensure that select types of sites are only available to those 18 or 21 years and older. Largely this is self serving but I believe parents are going to be looking for a whole new level of internet controls and reporting as consequence of this and similar verdicts. Some ready samples of what the providers believe screening should look like:
I believe there will be much greater pressure on all the Search sites to refuse service on the basis of search words and phrases, rather than filter search results. There will be a strong inclination to use public-library level screening universally. And gaming? Where does that one end?

We focus here on the gun and its accessibility, but comparatively speaking, this extends to a young person's access to a car or a knife or a considerable count of tools or a host of other things that can be used as weapons.

Additionally there are valid reasons why a young person might want to research such topics as Naziism or the rise and fall of Hitler or the Holocaust or the Kennedy assassination....those latter two would have been considered "gore" topics immediately after they occurred but community standards have changed in that regard. In our current state of wokeness, researching the original reasons for establishing the US Marine Corps would run headlong into idealogical prejudice and be "filtered" by some web sites.
Not that I believe that this is a bad verdict. I do believe that parents are going to be looking for easier ways of keeping track of their children's activities especially those which otherwise would be out of sight. Intrusive? Of course it is. Intrusion is basic to having the knowledge to address the issues early.
Only MOO.
 
This bothered me from JC's testimony.

EC was 3 months into being a sophomore, 10th grade

I found it difficult to believe JC's claims that EC's stress was over his future after high school.
Though I do see JC having harped and harped on him.
Fearful EC would become a James jr when it came to work
 
Oh and I also definitely think that Jennifer's lawyer did her no favors. I wouldn't be surprised if she claims ineffective counsel. Shannon Smith was a trainwreck the whole trial and then thought it was a good idea to frame her closing around what SHE, herself, would do. As if she is the picture of stability. I could hardly believe it. Even parents who behave like her would deny they are anything like her. lol.

ETA: And I know her point was that parents are flawed. And she was very right. Parents are flawed, but they are not all high strung and outwardly neurotic. "I'm going to kill myself," blew me away. She also did so much whining in front of the jury and her entire personality is very off putting.
 
Well: this is going to get interesting....

Meta, Google, X and others have lots of algorithms devoted to internet filtering and states have enacted laws to ensure that select types of sites are only available to those 18 or 21 years and older. Largely this is self serving but I believe parents are going to be looking for a whole new level of internet controls and reporting as consequence of this and similar verdicts. Some ready samples of what the providers believe screening should look like:
I believe there will be much greater pressure on all the Search sites to refuse service on the basis of search words and phrases, rather than filter search results. There will be a strong inclination to use public-library level screening universally. And gaming? Where does that one end?

We focus here on the gun and its accessibility, but comparatively speaking, this extends to a young person's access to a car or a knife or a considerable count of tools or a host of other things that can be used as weapons.

Additionally there are valid reasons why a young person might want to research such topics as Naziism or the rise and fall of Hitler or the Holocaust or the Kennedy assassination....those latter two would have been considered "gore" topics immediately after they occurred but community standards have changed in that regard. In our current state of wokeness, researching the original reasons for establishing the US Marine Corps would run headlong into idealogical prejudice and be "filtered" by some web sites.
Not that I believe that this is a bad verdict. I do believe that parents are going to be looking for easier ways of keeping track of their children's activities especially those which otherwise would be out of sight. Intrusive? Of course it is. Intrusion is basic to having the knowledge to address the issues early.
Only MOO.
Bingo!

" Intrusive? Of course it is. Intrusion is basic to having the knowledge to address the issues early.
Only MOO."
 
A couple things that may have influenced the guilty verdict:

1. Her testimony. She was indignant and said she wouldn’t change a thing!

2. The “Don’t do it” text she sent EC after she left the school. Don’t do what??? State failed to hammer this but it’s a very incriminating piece of evidence against her.

3. When she slipped up and said “we took his gun away the night before” and then lied and said she didn’t say that. That’s the strongest piece of evidence that the gun was probably in EC’s possession the night before.

4. If he never had possession of the gun like she claimed, how did he get it that morning to take to school? Makes no sense. He had the gun with him all along and they never thought to check at the school once they were called. And just left like ‘whatever.’ Then as soon as they heard about the shooting THEY KNEW IT WAS HIM!!! How?? Suggests they had considered it prior to the shooting.

JMO
Jurors don't care for liars.
 
@TamanthaLynn you make an impassioned (I don’t mean ‘emotional’ - I mean persuasive) case for guilty! I was in the NG camp by the end. I was really disappointed by the state’s performance and their closing really turned me off. It felt like a political speech by Karen McDonald. I think that perception made me sympathize with defense.

JMO
 
This article provides details about each of the jurors.

THANK YOU!
It's interesting and helpful reading about them.

James's lawyer now has a check list on what to avoid when picking his jury .(chuckle)

  • A 26-year-old who is married to a teacher and has no kids. He said he took concealed pistol and hunter safety classes when he was younger.
  • A resident of Royal Oak who has two children who “gave up watching the news in all forms” about six years ago who grew up with a father who hunted and owned guns.
  • A hairstylist who said she has a 9-year-old stepson.
  • A mother with two grown children who owns guns and took a gun safety class as a family, who said she was out of the country when the shooting occurred.
  • A teacher who has a daughter.
  • A physician and father who works in family medicine at an urgent care center. He said he has “seen a lot of gun violence” and has a lot of experience with guns.
  • An engineer who has twins in eighth grade and learned to shoot as a child.
  • A juror who works at Ann Arbor City Hall, has experience in law enforcement and keeps a gun for personal protection.
  • A juror whose father was in the military and taught him about gun safety.
  • An engineer who has had half a dozen “positive” experiences with guns and who moved to Michigan from Nebraska in 2014.
  • A parole officer with two young adult children who has guns in his home and described himself as “comfortable” with guns.
  • A University of Michigan employee with a young son who grew up in the Upper Peninsula “where if you don’t hunt it’s strange,” and who was almost involved in a school shooting as a teenager.
The alternates are:

  • A mother of three daughters, who spent the first few years of her life in Oxford and whose parents still live in Oxford.
  • A first-grade teacher who has two adult children and a high schooler, who has “learned over the years that I need to have all of the evidence available to me before I jump to conclusions.”
  • A juror who grew up hunting with his dad and “has always been knowledgeable on gun safety
  • A young, single juror with no kids who lives at home and works in insurance.
  • A veterinarian with two kids, who said when she thinks about this case she feels “undeniable rage. She initially said she couldn’t be impartial, but changed her mind.
 
@TamanthaLynn you make an impassioned (I don’t mean ‘emotional’ - I mean persuasive) case for guilty! I was in the NG camp by the end. I was really disappointed by the state’s performance and their closing really turned me off. It felt like a political speech by Karen McDonald. I think that perception made me sympathize with defense.

JMO
I actually agree with you about the closing by the state. I wasn't a big fan.

ETA: But I actually wonder how much of it was because Shannon Smith told them she had 2 witnesses for the day and they were flustered and surprised when she rest her case. I got the impression the state was not ready to move to closing that early in the day. Maybe this was strategy on Shannon's part. And maybe it worked a little. lol
 
I actually agree with you about the closing by the state. I wasn't a big fan.

ETA: But I actually wonder how much of it was because Shannon Smith told them she had 2 witnesses for the day and they were flustered and surprised when she rest her case. I got the impression the state was not ready to move to closing that early in the day. Maybe this was strategy on Shannon's part. And maybe it worked a little. lol
Oh that’s almost certainly what happened! Lol. Someone else pointed it out upthread (maybe it was you) and I couldn’t believe I didn’t catch it. Smith was preparing all night for that closing while McDonald was snoring. She totally bixch slapped McDonald. I admire the gamesmanship. Smith’s closing (the last 2/3 of it) and that little trick she played imo were her best moments of the trial.
 
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