IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

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Bloomington Police search for missing 20 year old woman
Lauren Spierer, age 20.
She is a white female, 4 feet 11 inches tall, slender build, has blue eyes and long blonde hair. She is listed as a student according to IU Bloomington's website.
Spierer was last seen walking south on College Avenue from 11th Street on her way back to her apartment in Smallwood Plaza, located on College Avenue.
She did not arrive to her apartment and video footage does not show her entering the apartment complex.
Spierer was wearing a white tank top with a loose, light colored button shirt over it and full length black stretch pants. She was not wearing shoes.

Photos and Maps

Media Links


Who's Who in the Lauren Spierer Case, Updated 06-30-11 (by the Herald Times Online)

http://www.lohud.com/article/20110615/NEWS02/106150373

Re: the photo released Wednesday, 06-15-2011, of Lauren leaving Smallwood Apartments the evening of June 2, 2011.

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81929



http://www.fox59.com/news/wxin-laure...,1261306.story
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doubtingthomas said:

Does anyone know if there were cameras at 10th and College apartments when LS went missing? If so, would these cameras capture video of anyone entering and leaving 10th and College apartments? And if so, would it capture video of anyone walking on College?

Click to expand...

Hey Thomas... Yes there were cameras at 10th and College.
There is one very nice shot of Lauren on 10th and College cameras I think earlier in the evening showing what she was wearing etc. There is a lot of material on WS's for this case. The thing with the "known" cameras at 10th and College is that they apparently focus on a walkway that is against the building and not pointed out at College itself. So, if you were thinking that JR is telling the truth and LS left at 4:15 to 4:30 (which I think is a crock) and that she turned down College toward SW (barefoot, phoneless, injured, incoherent, etc...) well no there is no known capture of of her on video going down College. However, there were clearly eyewitness accounts of Lauren slamming her head down on the concrete from a sitting position at 10th and College AND trying to gain entry to an apt with 3 female friends at 10th and College apts, PRIOR to her making it down the alley with CR and falling face first without blocking with her hands upon exiting the alley (which was captured on cam). It's not clear just how much of the entrances of 10th and College are covered by cameras. We only know for sure of the one camera and it does not point to the street. There may be other cameras, but that has not been make public. I also believe there are cameras on the building to the North of the 10th and College building, but no information about that has ever been released. Also note that on that side of College at that time there was construction on the road and there was no parking on College in that area. Also, if you look at the maps (btown created some very nice maps and they are posted here on WS) you can see that Waffle house on the other side of the street is within eyeshot of the 10th and College building and certainly the sidewalk that would lead on the way to SW. Local LE had been at that Waffle House around that time (if I recall correctly) and patrolled College before and after that.

The situation is such that there is almost no chance that Lauren left JR's as he said and at the time he said. The likelyhood of some random stranger abduction is in the fractional less than a tenth of a percent category. The reason is that if you spend time analyzing the statements of the known POI's and the facts as stated by the POI's, their attorney's, eyewitnesses, LE, Private Investigators, and corrected news reports and then contrast that against the facts of Lauren's condition; the descriptions of her condition as she left Kilroy's, made it to SW and was slipping to the floor, foaming at the mouth?, was unable to speak, had to be carried, slammed her head into concrete at 10th and College, had trouble walking, fell down face first, was carried by CR... then you will find large inconsistencies in the POI's statements which render their statements to be FALSE.

There is a slightly greater chance that someone she knew or knew of her condition/predicament took advantage of the situation, IF and only IF JR is telling the truth. Since his story is not consistent with the facts and doesn't fit with MB's story it's then not likely that anyone abducted her unless JR had knowledge of it.

AbbeyR said:

You know what's strange? If you look at the statements that lawyers have given for the POI, and the stories that were told by random people to the media, there's a few things that are repeated.

Here's one: In statements attributed to both JR and MB, when they describe LS leaving, they say: She wanted to leave. and then I watched her leave or I watched her walk out the door (toward home).

It's a weird thing to say. Wouldn't you just say "She left at whatever time?" Why the redundancy, and why are two people who claim they weren't even together using the same awkward sentence about 'watching her walk off'?

:waitasec:

Click to expand...

Yes! I have always thought JRs words, "watched her round the corner" (I hope I'm getting the quote exactly right) were odd ... I just couldn't put my finger on it &/or felt like I was being too analytical. But the phrase he used has never set well ... to me it sounds like something a person would say when they want to be technically correct without actually saying too much.
Thank you for putting into words what I've not been able to myself.

weird theory--what if the phone is the key piece of evidence? IMO she could have been looking for it; Someone might have picked it up at Kilroys after she left it that's why she tried to stop at 10th and College, went back to JRs and wanted to leave. Maybe she wanted to get the phone before Jesse did. This is where HT and BW come in. Did they give the phone to someone who was watching the game with them at SW so Jesse could see it? And that someone took it to 10th and College? It ended up at Kilroys with JW. The employee never states when the phone was found. JW could have been texting that phone all night into the morning with jealous threats. Someone who had the phone could have found out early that Lauren was missing and put the phone back at Kilroys. That someone could be innocent of her disappearance but guilty of causing her to panic over her phone. Another thing LE did was say that two phone calls were made from JRs phone, one to DR and to another guy. They did not say that other calls were not made.
The reason LE might hold Salzmann in high esteem is that he was the Prosecutor here for two terms. I fully understand how a defense atty functions, I'm just saying that this guy is not the type to ruin a potential political career to back a liar. Allowing his client to claim amnesia when it a) might be more than partially true and b) he was punched to the ground, is not exactly dirty dealing.
I have stated that Salzmann's office is at the intersection of 10th and College. This is
across from the 10th and College complex . Alot of fuss was made about whether he had camera footage of that night and early morning of Lauren's disappearance. Maybe he has something showing person(s) bringing her phone and shoes back toward Kilroys. The opening employee could have found them outside by the fence, brought them inside. Or someone could have brought them in after opening and placed them outside. We only know JW took the phone, did he also claim the shoes? IDK, MOO, speculation, Abbey said throw theories out there.
Again, persons with the phone could be innocent of disappearance.

Thank you VeryVeritas for the info regarding cameras at 10th and College. I had a theory about someone taking LS into the 10th and College apartment building. But with cameras there they would have been seen. So I will go with my second theory.

This is the timeline based on what we have been told.

LS and CR are seen on video around 3:00
They go to CR/MB apartment
MB walks LS to JR’s
JR gives the walk test and LS leaves between 4:15 and 4:30
Two phone calls are made between 4:15 and 4:30

Now, what if all this is true except the time JR has said she left. Of course this is based all on ‘what if’.

LS leaves between 3:15 and 3:30
Based on the reported condition LS is in she could have arrived at 10th and College around 3:38.
This is the time the bartender/waitress states she saw someone with a girl flung over their shoulder.
The mystery man’s description has been compared to AB. AB lives at 10th and College. He comes back to his apartment and finds LS in bad condition. Hence his question if he could take her home. I think he is really trying to help her out and not involved in her being missing. It would be nice to know from the bartender/waitress if they watched what the mystery man did with her. If he took her into 10th and College apartments that should have been seen on camera. So he takes her back to JR’s. Her condition has now gotten worse. Maybe even to the point she has passed. I think Ixchel13 point about the phone is a key here. They know she does not have her phone with her but don’t know who she may have been talking to throughout the night. It is now closer to the 4:15 timeline. JR makes the call to DR to see if she had her phone when he was with her. I think the second call could be to ZO to see if she had her phone with her when he punched out CR. The call could also be to help remove her from his apartment.

So here is a theory thrown out. Thanks to VeryVeritas, AbbyR, Ixchel13 and all who are helping to keep this going in hopes of finding LS.

Lauren's mom said this about her cell phone:

Lauren last used her cell phone at 12:16 a.m., just after midnight as June 2 became June 3 when she was still safely in the confines of Smallwood. Consider that fact when you read about Lauren’s case or hear her story. Let me repeat it: Lauren last used her cell phone at 12:16 a.m., just after midnight as June 2 became June 3 when she was still safely in the confines of Smallwood.

Click to expand...

DoubtingThomas, have you seen this video? In it, the PI's give a little more info about what was caught on video. They describe the 'mystery man' scene but suggest it was CR:
http://www.lohud.com/VideoNetwork/1662569062001/Lauren-Spierer-interactive?nclick_check=1

Wait, Lauren was still at Smallwood at 12:16am, then left with DR to go hang out at JR's, but DR returned home at 12:30 am?

Rohn, from Manhattan, attended the exclusive Columbia Grammar and Preparatory School on the Upper West Side. His attorney, Ron Chapman, confirms to IM that Rohn left Smallwood with Spierer, and that surveillance footage shows Rohn returning at about 12:30 a.m., June 3, and remaining there until around 11 that morning. Rohn later took an FBI-administered polygraph test that showed “no deception.”

Click to expand...

http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477

Is this wrong?...

AbbeyR said:

Somehow we came to think that JR didn't have a car that night because it was getting fixed, or something like that. Can someone tell me where this came from? Did it come from "Ray" who also swore JR had taken an LE polygraph, which was false? Or some other anonymous comment?

I want to find source of that rumor.

Click to expand...

Ray was the initial source on PT. Later Jacobite made the same claim on websleuths and said that "that had been verified." (or confirmed, rather than verified.) But I don't think Jacobite ever said confirmed/verified by whom or how. I will see if I can find that post.

AbbeyR said:

Lauren's mom said this about her cell phone:


DoubtingThomas, have you seen this video? In it, the PI's give a little more info about what was caught on video. They describe the 'mystery man' scene but suggest it was CR:
http://www.lohud.com/VideoNetwork/1662569062001/Lauren-Spierer-interactive?nclick_check=1

Click to expand...

Yes I have seen the video. There is no mention in the video of a mystery man by anyone. The PI's version of CR carring LS is way before the 3:38 timeline I was referring to from the bartender. I think we are talking about two different incidents. Of course the PI's are not talking about the 3:38 timeline because LE has dismissed it as not happening because there is no video proof. My theory is based on JR's 4:30 time is actually 3:30 and the bartender did actually witness this.

Concerning the cell phone, CS has stated when LS last used her cell phone but JR doesn't know when she last used it or to whom she talked to. That was my point about making calls to find out.

ok so DR doesn't leave JRs for Kilroys like LS and CR, he goes home to SW and stays
there and only he takes a poly, and passes. He runs up to JRs, runs right back and holes up for the night. LS supposedly leaves her phone at Kilroys during a hurried exit after telling a few people she was very high.
CS tells us twice to listen to her saying that Lauren last used her phone safely at SW
before leaving. Are we to believe Lauren took her phone up to JRs , and then down to Kilroys without texting or calling anyone? More likely LS left her phone at SW and someone got hold of it and later dropped it off at Kilroys. Also, CS doesn't say that Lauren didn't call her phone; or if anyone called it after Lauren last used it, or if anyone else used it after that.

* Gatto agreed that the PI's in the video were talking about 'his' witness (the bar manager)

* They describe the same encounter he described, at the same location

*The PI's don't refer to a 'mystery man' because his identity isn't a mystery. It wasn't for LE either -- they never disputed that there was a witness, just the time.

--> "mystery man" = CR

That's my interpretation, at least. I thought TG was great in the beginning because he was doing the kind of investigative reporting that was lacking in Bloomington. But I also think he ran with some assumptions and was possibly 'played' a little by some anonymous sources who may have had their own agendas (ZO's 'sister'?, for one). Unfortunately, since he stopped reporting on the case, he never followed up on or corrected those early reports.

Ros said:

Ray was the initial source on PT. Later Jacobite made the same claim on websleuths and said that "that had been verified." (or confirmed, rather than verified.) But I don't think Jacobite ever said confirmed/verified by whom or how. I will see if I can find that post.

Click to expand...

Thanks ROS, that's what I thought.

"Ray" also swore that JR had taken a polygraph administered by Bloomington PD, up until June 27th, when JR's lawyers released a statement that said otherwise.

Are we to believe JR didn't have a car, just because some person on a Phish board who claims to be friends with his roommates says that's what JR told them? We know he had a car in Bloomington -- Was his car ever searched? Or did we just accept that it wasn't because supposedly it was "in the shop", a claim never made by JR or his lawyers directly.

Oh, but another anonymous person on the internet says it's verified? Ok then

AbbeyR said:

Thanks ROS, that's what I thought.

"Ray" also swore that JR had taken a polygraph administered by Bloomington PD, up until June 27th, when JR's lawyers released a statement that said otherwise.

Are we to believe JR didn't have a car, just because some person on a Phish board who claims to be friends with his roommates says that's what JR told them? We know he had a car in Bloomington -- Was his car ever searched? Or did we just accept that it wasn't because supposedly it was "in the shop", a claim never made by JR or his lawyers directly.

Oh, but another anonymous person on the internet says it's verified? Ok then

Click to expand...

I think it was Jacobite, but I am not sure now.

"Ray" also said that JR did not have access to a car, which I find curious. How did his "guest from home" get to Bloomington?

Ixchel13 said:

weird theory--what if the phone is the key piece of evidence? IMO she could have been looking for it; Someone might have picked it up at Kilroys after she left it that's why she tried to stop at 10th and College, went back to JRs and wanted to leave. Maybe she wanted to get the phone before Jesse did. This is where HT and BW come in. Did they give the phone to someone who was watching the game with them at SW so Jesse could see it? And that someone took it to 10th and College? It ended up at Kilroys with JW. The employee never states when the phone was found. JW could have been texting that phone all night into the morning with jealous threats. Someone who had the phone could have found out early that Lauren was missing and put the phone back at Kilroys. That someone could be innocent of her disappearance but guilty of causing her to panic over her phone. Another thing LE did was say that two phone calls were made from JRs phone, one to DR and to another guy. They did not say that other calls were not made.
The reason LE might hold Salzmann in high esteem is that he was the Prosecutor here for two terms. I fully understand how a defense atty functions, I'm just saying that this guy is not the type to ruin a potential political career to back a liar. Allowing his client to claim amnesia when it a) might be more than partially true and b) he was punched to the ground, is not exactly dirty dealing.
I have stated that Salzmann's office is at the intersection of 10th and College. This is
across from the 10th and College complex . Alot of fuss was made about whether he had camera footage of that night and early morning of Lauren's disappearance. Maybe he has something showing person(s) bringing her phone and shoes back toward Kilroys. The opening employee could have found them outside by the fence, brought them inside. Or someone could have brought them in after opening and placed them outside. We only know JW took the phone, did he also claim the shoes? IDK, MOO, speculation, Abbey said throw theories out there.
Again, persons with the phone could be innocent of disappearance.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reminder about Salzman's office. I'd not thought about his location. But, if he had video, withholding that evidence from LE would be a crime... so not likely he has something that LE doesn't. He just seems to be literally be the closest Lawyer around. Which feeds my suspicion that CR is lazy and had he stashed the body, it would not be far from 5N. JR, I would think would want to drive further away and would put more thinking into it.

doubtingthomas said:

Thank you VeryVeritas for the info regarding cameras at 10th and College. I had a theory about someone taking LS into the 10th and College apartment building. But with cameras there they would have been seen. So I will go with my second theory.

This is the timeline based on what we have been told.

LS and CR are seen on video around 3:00
They go to CR/MB apartment
MB walks LS to JR’s
JR gives the walk test and LS leaves between 4:15 and 4:30
Two phone calls are made between 4:15 and 4:30

Now, what if all this is true except the time JR has said she left. Of course this is based all on ‘what if’.

LS leaves between 3:15 and 3:30
Based on the reported condition LS is in she could have arrived at 10th and College around 3:38.
This is the time the bartender/waitress states she saw someone with a girl flung over their shoulder.
The mystery man’s description has been compared to AB. AB lives at 10th and College. He comes back to his apartment and finds LS in bad condition. Hence his question if he could take her home. I think he is really trying to help her out and not involved in her being missing. It would be nice to know from the bartender/waitress if they watched what the mystery man did with her. If he took her into 10th and College apartments that should have been seen on camera. So he takes her back to JR’s. Her condition has now gotten worse. Maybe even to the point she has passed. I think Ixchel13 point about the phone is a key here. They know she does not have her phone with her but don’t know who she may have been talking to throughout the night. It is now closer to the 4:15 timeline. JR makes the call to DR to see if she had her phone when he was with her. I think the second call could be to ZO to see if she had her phone with her when he punched out CR. The call could also be to help remove her from his apartment.

So here is a theory thrown out. Thanks to VeryVeritas, AbbyR, Ixchel13 and all who are helping to keep this going in hopes of finding LS.

Click to expand...

It is possible someone took her into 10th and College, there may be entrances without cameras... perhaps someone in the immediate area can confirm. I recall that CR has broken into 10th & College building through some back door before... not sure if that door is on camera.

The problem with Lauren walking anywhere is that after about 2:50 there is no evidence that she could any longer stand up, much less walk. She apparently couldn't even talk when she was at SW. She was really far gone, and then subsequently was seriously injured. The stories about her miraculous recover originates with MB who didn't seem to say anything that fit with the witnessed and recorded known condition she was in. JR's story puts it closer to reality but it's still not there. JR's story is in conflict with MB's as far as Lauren's condition. But JR also puts her condition as being good enough to leave, when there is no proof she could even crawl out the door. The last known videotape of her is falling face down without even putting up her hands... she seemed to be out cold. So, the stuff about her rounding corners, walking good enough to leave (although barefoot, injured and a short time earlier being totally unconscious. ) is just plain BS to me.

VeryVeritas said:

It is possible someone took her into 10th and College, there may be entrances without cameras... perhaps someone in the immediate area can confirm.

Click to expand...

4 entrances: 1 parking garage stairs, 1 parking garage elevator, 2 doors off of the College Ave facing arcade. All are covered by camera. I would say it is not possible someone took her into Tenth and College or if they did, it would would be known.

VeryVeritas said:

There is one very nice shot of Lauren on 10th and College cameras I think earlier in the evening showing what she was wearing etc.

Click to expand...

VeryVeritas said:

I recall that CR has broken into 10th & College building through some back door before... not sure if that door is on camera.

Click to expand...

You seem to be mixing up Tenth and College with Smallwood in both of the above. Perhaps you are referring to the 10/31/10 incident where police found CR and JR attempting to enter Smallwood with a credit card (http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/30/news.qp-0075723.sto)?

AbbeyR said:

Wait, Lauren was still at Smallwood at 12:16am, then left with DR to go hang out at JR's, but DR returned home at 12:30 am?


http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477

Is this wrong?...

Click to expand...

Seems this is why DR has largely been cleared. If he was only gone from sw 15 minutes, he was basically escorting Lauren to JR's...
There had been statements and speculation about DR doing drugs with LS (which is where the klonopin came in - remains unsubstantiated).
If DR did share Klonopin, Xanax or similar with LS, then those effects would be heavy within 1 hr. But she was just arriving at Kilroys about 1ish... and stayed about 1 hr. It seems unlikely to me that if she ingested high doses of Klonopin and/or Xanax at midnight(at SW, because DR would have only been at JR's very briefly if this story is accurate), or even 12:30, that she would be still standing at Kilroys at 2:00am. This is one of several things that causes me to think that she took something (and I now suspect involuntarily) at Kilroy's. LS would be seen on Cams enroute to Kilroy's AND I'll bet she took that same alley from 5N on the way there. Compare her condition and behavior when she was on the way to Kilroy's vs. her return.

bx2 said:

4 entrances: 1 parking garage stairs, 1 parking garage elevator, 2 doors off of the College Ave facing arcade. All are covered by camera. I would say it is not possible someone took her into Tenth and College or if they did, it would would be known.





You seem to be mixing up Tenth and College with Smallwood in both of the above. Perhaps you are referring to the 10/31/10 incident where police found CR and JR attempting to enter Smallwood with a credit card (http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/30/news.qp-0075723.sto)?

Click to expand...

I recall reports of both, but it is possible that the person who posted it was mixing the 2.

Yet, thanks for the confirmation that she could not have entered 10th and College without being on cam. That's the first time I've heard that!

VeryVeritas said:

Seems this is why DR has largely been cleared. If he was only gone from sw 15 minutes, he was basically escorting Lauren to JR's...
There had been statements and speculation about DR doing drugs with LS (which is where the klonopin came in - remains unsubstantiated).
If DR did share Klonopin, Xanax or similar with LS, then those effects would be heavy within 1 hr. But she was just arriving at Kilroys about 1ish... and stayed about 1 hr. It seems unlikely to me that if she ingested high doses of Klonopin and/or Xanax at midnight(at SW, because DR would have only been at JR's very briefly if this story is accurate), or even 12:30, that she would be still standing at Kilroys at 2:00am. This is one of several things that causes me to think that she took something (and I now suspect involuntarily) at Kilroy's. LS would be seen on Cams enroute to Kilroy's AND I'll bet she took that same alley from 5N on the way there. Compare her condition and behavior when she was on the way to Kilroy's vs. her return.

Click to expand...

Yeah, about DR -- I was just surprised at the times.

LS also stopped at CR's on the way to Kilroys, I think. He could have given her something there. Either way, it seems like she becomes totally incapacitated not long after leaving with CR.

It sounds like they went off alone, but CS said JR was at Kilroys too, so its hard to tell.

So if LS stopped at CR's on the way to Kilroys, maybe it's at this time that MB is referring to that LS wanted to party, not when he is putting CR to bed.