All About Chloroform#2

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I posted the following on the Computer Forensics thread shortly after the lovely Miss Botwin pointed me to the date of the Ricardo update:

nancy botwin said:
NICE-- thank you so much for outlining the google searches like this-- I was wondering what google book results she got specifically. And also having trouble actually reading all the hits, so thank you! Also, Ricardo uploaded the "Win her over with chloroform" image to his Facebook account on March 18. I have the screencap of his page here.
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Interesting...the screencap shows an upload on the 18th, and home computer searches on the topic on the 17th, the day before.

So here is some additional speculation. KC is with Ricardo on Sunday the 16th and they are surfing around together and find the image on one of the myspace pages I found it on. Ric has a good chuckle about it and downloads it. The next day, KC looks it up to learn more, and the following day Ric get's back on his computer and uploads it to his myspace, possibly after KC mentioned looking it up earlier in the day.

I don't think it is coincidence the search and upload occurred within a day of each other.
 
JWG - What if KC came up with the idea of chloroform all on her own (the search was done at a time she was clearly fantasizing about shovels, breaking necks, weapons) and told Ricardo or even asked Ricardo where to get it.

He came across the picture the next day after their conversation and uploaded the picture as an inside joke with KC.

KC could have confided in Ricardo about wanting to use chloroform (we still haven't figured out if Ricardo=Lexus during flurry of calls) to knock Caylee out or use it as a means of stealing from people (like AH or her parents).

Not that I believe the whole chloroform idea and that it was used but I believe it probably happened the other way around:

KC got the idea to look up chloroform - told Ricardo about it (weren't they dating then???) - then he found the pic and uploaded for a good laugh.

Seems to make more sense than them coming across it while sitting together, her looking it up once alone at home, then him uploading it onto his Myspace or wherever he had it.
 
It's Not the Nanny said:
JWG - What if KC came up with the idea of chloroform all on her own (the search was done at a time she was clearly fantasizing about shovels, breaking necks, weapons) and told Ricardo or even asked Ricardo where to get it.

He came across the picture the next day after their conversation and uploaded the picture as an inside joke with KC.

KC could have confided in Ricardo about wanting to use chloroform (we still haven't figured out if Ricardo=Lexus during flurry of calls) to knock Caylee out or use it as a means of stealing from people (like AH or her parents).

Not that I believe the whole chloroform idea and that it was used but I believe it probably happened the other way around:

KC got the idea to look up chloroform - told Ricardo about it (weren't they dating then???) - then he found the pic and uploaded for a good laugh.

Seems to make more sense than them coming across it while sitting together, her looking it up once alone at home, then him uploading it onto his Myspace or wherever he had it.
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Thanks INN, I understand where you are coming from.

IMO, Ricardo and KC were together when they stumbled across the image on another myspace page. I quickly found several myspace pages with the same image uploaded in March, 2008 prior to Ricardo uploading...so it was spreading through that social network around that time.

KC probably did not know what chloroform was but did not want to look stupid by asking Ricardo. She did a quick search and found out. This then lead to her searching "self-defense" and "shovel" was part of the self-defense search.

How many times have we all done this sort of "free-flowing" internet searching? I presonally do it all the time...I think I have ADD though.
 
JWG said:
Thanks INN, I understand where you are coming from.

IMO, Ricardo and KC were together when they stumbled across the image on another myspace page. I quickly found several myspace pages with the same image uploaded in March, 2008 prior to Ricardo uploading...so it was spreading through that social network around that time.

KC probably did not know what chloroform was but did not want to look stupid by asking Ricardo. She did a quick search and found out. This then lead to her searching "self-defense" and "shovel" was part of the self-defense search.

How many times have we all done this sort of "free-flowing" internet searching? I presonally do it all the time...I think I have ADD though.
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Even so. She looked up household weapons and specifically "shovel" and we have far more than a "raised level" of shovel. We have an actual shovel and eye wittness testimony putting it in KC's possesion around the time of the murder.
Don't you think there is far more evidence to suggest the Stanley shovel was the murder weapon, than evidence to suggest chloroform from unknown source?
 
JWG - I see your point when thinking about it in context of Ricardo's image spreading like wildfire across the social networking sites. For what it's worth, I think your analysis on the searches about chloroform, etc, is what landed me on the side of "chloroform not manufactured/created/used".
 
Hercule Poirot said:
Even so. She looked up household weapons and specifically "shovel" and we have far more than a "raised level" of shovel. We have an actual shovel and eye wittness testimony putting it in KC's possesion around the time of the murder.
Don't you think there is far more evidence to suggest the Stanley shovel was the murder weapon, than evidence to suggest chloroform from unknown source?
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Hi Hercule...it has been a few days since we've bantered ideas back and forth :(.

I really don't think a shovel was used as a murder weapon, for several reasons.

First, there was absolutely no forensic evidence found on BB's shovel. I don't think KC could have eliminated all evidence.

Second, she borrowed it a couple of days after Caylee died (so I believe).

Third, no ante-mortem trauma was found on the skeleton, and my hunch is that killing with a shovel would leave some sort of evidence on the bones.

Lastly, "shovel" was the last term used in this very brief search. I look at it as "OK, this is getting a bit ridiculous...why don't I go search on Paris Hilton now."

The searches had public shock value and the state attorney knew this when releasing them...but as evidence I think they are easily refuted (IMO, of course).
 
Doesn't anyone think that the order that all the terms were looked up could tell a story of her thoughts? First chloraform, then the individual ingredients in it along with inhalants and death. Then, some days later another search on actually how to make chloroform, household weapons, neck breaking, and finally shovel. This may show a train of thought in making a plan of being attacked, chloroformed, attempts to defend herself, and Caylee is kidnapped. Just what she claims happened.
 
JWG said:
Hi Hercule...it has been a few days since we've bantered ideas back and forth :(.

I really don't think a shovel was used as a murder weapon, for several reasons.

First, there was absolutely no forensic evidence found on BB's shovel. I don't think KC could have eliminated all evidence.

Second, she borrowed it a couple of days after Caylee died (so I believe).

Third, no ante-mortem trauma was found on the skeleton, and my hunch is that killing with a shovel would leave some sort of evidence on the bones.

Lastly, "shovel" was the last term used in this very brief search. I look at it as "OK, this is getting a bit ridiculous...why don't I go search on Paris Hilton now."

The searches had public shock value and the state attorney knew this when releasing them...but as evidence I think they are easily refuted (IMO, of course).
Click to expand...
As usual you make very good points.

The reason I raise "shovel" as a straw man is to point out that a google search by KC, even coincidentally for an item that shows up later in part of the evidence, is NOT significant evidence.
As you say we would need corroborating evidence for the shovel's involvement in the murder, such as evidence of trauma to Caylee's skull. Similarly we need corroborating evidence of chloroform linked to KC or Caylee for chloroform to be shown to be involved.
Of course LE is correct to actively seek chloroform links, but in all likelihood that may eliminate it as a factor rather than prove it was.
 
Hercule Poirot said:
As usual you make very good points.

The reason I raise "shovel" as a straw man is to point out that a google search by KC, even coincidentally for an item that shows up later in part of the evidence, is NOT significant evidence.
As you say we would need corroborating evidence for the shovel's involvement in the murder, such as evidence of trauma to Caylee's skull. Similarly we need corroborating evidence of chloroform linked to KC or Caylee for chloroform to be shown to be involved.
Of course LE is correct to actively seek chloroform links, but in all likelihood that may eliminate it as a factor rather than prove it was.
Click to expand...

Ah, now I am following you. :doh: Part of the purpose of collecting evidence is to eliminate evidence.

Thank goodness we have Brits like you involved :uk:.
 
The search warrant AFTER Caylee's body was found specifically included chemicals that could be used to make chloroform. LE even took the yard pump sprayers.

I think something found WITH Caylee pointed them in that direction.

JMO
 
JWG said:
Ah, now I am following you. :doh: Part of the purpose of collecting evidence is to eliminate evidence.

Thank goodness we have Brits like you involved :uk:.
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Elementary, JWG.

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
 
Jolynna said:
The search warrant AFTER Caylee's body was found specifically included chemicals that could be used to make chloroform. LE even took the yard pump sprayers.

I think something found WITH Caylee pointed them in that direction.

JMO
Click to expand...
What do you think might have been found that could suggest chloroform?
 
txsvicki said:
Doesn't anyone think that the order that all the terms were looked up could tell a story of her thoughts? First chloraform, then the individual ingredients in it along with inhalants and death. Then, some days later another search on actually how to make chloroform, household weapons, neck breaking, and finally shovel. This may show a train of thought in making a plan of being attacked, chloroformed, attempts to defend herself, and Caylee is kidnapped. Just what she claims happened.
Click to expand...

I was following your train of thought here and going w it (no really!) Then I got to wondering just exactly how neck breaking eg could possibly fit anywhere into that sort of staged kidnapping victim scenario tho. Maybe I am missing something but there doesn't seem to be a connection there. As I've posted here and on other threads I don't believe chloroform was used as a chemical weapon (unnecessarily hazardous) nor do I believe shovel was used as a weapon. For reasons JWG cites incl'g foremost time of use, but also because a) this composed mother choosing a gratuitously violent method of killing is an even "harder sell" to me than what's described as "soft kill;" and b) I doubt anyone who would go to extent of researching? a (garden variety, commonly available) household tool to carry out premeditated murder then goes about something as obtuse as borrowing one from a neighbor. If anything IMO these were used in attempted cover-up and/or clean-up respectively. But neither am I convinced anything was used as a weapon. JMO
:parrot:
 
kiki the parrot said:
I was following your train of thought here and going w it (no really!) Then I got to wondering just exactly how neck breaking eg could possibly fit anywhere into that sort of staged kidnapping victim scenario tho. Maybe I am missing something but there doesn't seem to be a connection there. As I've posted here and on other threads I don't believe chloroform was used as a chemical weapon (unnecessarily risky) nor do I believe shovel was used as a weapon. For reasons JWG cites including foremost time of use, but also because a) this composed mother choosing a gratuitously violent method of killing is an even "harder sell" to me than what's been described as "soft kill;" and b) I doubt anyone who would go to length of researching this (garden variety commonly available) household tool to carry out premeditated murder then goes about something as obtuse as borrowing one from a neighbor. If anything IMO they were used in attempts to cover-up and clean-up respectively. But neither am I convinced anything was used as a weapon. JMO
:parrot:
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yes, I agree.

I have been (in a round about way), trying to point out that nothing KC "searched" on the internet is necessarily likely to be involved with the crime.
In my view chloroform is just as unlikely as shovel
 
Hercule Poirot said:
yes, I agree.

I have been (in a round about way), trying to point out that nothing KC "searched" on the internet is necessarily likely to be involved with the crime.
In my view chloroform is just as unlikely as shovel
Click to expand...

It seems to me that LE had a reason to specifically look for chloroform ingredients.

I don't know what they found with Caylee but I do believe LE has a lot more evidence. Actually during the hearing where Casey wore the suit, the SA's said they did.

Maybe Casey accidently spilled chloroform onto the Caylee's clothes? Or the Winnie the Pooh blanket? Or the laundry bag? Or it got on the tape?


JMO
 
Hercule Poirot said:
yes, I agree.

I have been (in a round about way), trying to point out that nothing KC "searched" on the internet is necessarily likely to be involved with the crime.
In my view chloroform is just as unlikely as shovel
Click to expand...

ITA :) I gathered this was your intent when you poked fun at your own "daft" idea, but when this was taken every bit as seriously, guess I felt compelled to poke holes in it too lol... next? J/K! JMO
:parrot:
 
kiki the parrot said:
ITA :) I gathered this was your intent when you poked fun at your own "daft" idea, but when this was taken every bit as seriously, guess I felt compelled to poke holes in it too lol... next? J/K! JMO
:parrot:
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Straw shovel - Virtual chloroform

I like it LOL
 
Hercule Poirot said:
Straw shovel - Virtual chloroform

I like it LOL
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And I like the power of deductive reasoning! However whereas it's been relatively easy on the one hand for most to accept the obvious alternate explanation for the "straw" shovel (other than antemortem murder weapon) most remain unwilling to consider any such alternate explanations for the evil chloroform or "virtual" poisoning. (I wasn't aware one could be "poisoned" postmortem eg any more than one could be "suffocated" using duct tape postmortem either.) JMO
:parrot:
 
Hercule Poirot said:
Good points

Equally it would be silly to imagine killing a child with a hard to obtain toxic chemical.
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Chloroform is not hard to obtain. It is easily ordered online. It is easily made. The ingredients to make it are easily obtained. I can go to my local home improvement store and buy acetone and pool shock all day long. I haven't found the link yet, so feel free to take this as rumor, but IIRC the tattoo guy said he uses chloroform to clean his equipment.
Lanie
 
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