17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #18

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Since we are talking about grappling as a sport I wanted to repeat a post I made in an earlier thread. Hope that's okay, I type too slowly to do it over anew.


I just wanted to say that I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Zimmerman could have been getting the worst of it in a fight with Trayvon Martin. I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Martin could have been afraid of suffering great bodily harm from Trayvon Martin. I feel this so strongly for two reasons.

First, using the weights reported by both families Trayvon weighed between 140 and 145 pounds, and George Zimmerman weighed 190. Are these weights accurate? I don't know for sure, but the police report weights seem to be guesses so I am going to go with them. I suspect 190 is a little light for Zimmerman but I will go with it. These weight differences would put them 4 or 5 weight classes apart in professional boxing, and at least 4 weight classes apart in high school wrestling. The heavier fighter would never be allowed into the ring with the lighter because of the unfair advantage he would have.

Secondly, George Zimmerman is reported to have multiple years of experience as a bouncer/private security. This is not a field you survive in for months, let alone years, if you are easily frightened at the possibility of getting hit. This is not a field you last long in if you do not know how to fight, and more importantly, how to restrain someone who is trying to hurt you without hurting them. You must be able to face down and remove people who are drunk, belligerant and possibly way larger than you. I find it impossible to believe that anyone who spent years as a bouncer could be reduced to those wails of terror in less than two minutes by a skinny, unarmed kid he outweighed by forty or fifty pounds. Moo
Last edited by Inabsentia; 04-05-2012 at 09:54 AM. Reason: Grammar

I'd really like to know if GZ ever took self defense classes and if that is how he knew of his attorney? If you were shopping for a criminal attorney I don't think this man would just pop right up on the internet while you are doing a search. jmo
 
So GZ was already expressing a fear that TM would do him bodily harm. jmo

No. I think he was expressing a fear that Trayvon might come break into his home, which was the crime that the neighborhood was dealing with, that caused the formation of the Neighborhood Watch.

If he was afraid that Trayvon would do him great bodily harm, he would not have followed him, or at least would have drawn his gun. At which point, there would have been no physical altercation.
 
I think maybe you don't know the term "tap out".

That's when one opponent taps on the other opponent, and that signals the end of the match.

No, GZ couldn't "tap out" of a fight with Trayvon. It wasn't a game.

You are absolutely right.....it wasn't a game....but since your comparison was made between an innocuous sporting event and a violent death, one must use metaphor to compare the ways to "tap out" in these completely dissimilar situations.

Being QUITE familiar with the term "tap out", it is an absolute FACT that there are many ways that GZ could (metaphorically) have "signaled the end of the match". NONE OF THOSE WAYS involves the use of a gun to kill an innocent teen....

jmo
 
No. If it hadn't been Trayvon, it would have been someone else's child and soon. The one thing Frank Taafe has said that I believe is that GZ had "fed up issues." JMO.

As for the hoodies, my teen boys have all sorts of them. In addition to the ones they have chosen themselves with "Las Vegas" or a favorite college mascot on them, a hoodie is actually part of the team uniform package for every sport they are on in high school. So they have a football one, a lacrosse one, etc. for each season every year. We have tons of them.

And wearing them when it's hot? My middle one wears his even when it is blazing out. We used to call the one that he was allowed to wear to school with the uniform his "woobie" because I practically had to wash it while he was asleep!
BBM, Angelmom, ITA. We have a large extended family. My niece is a softball player at UC Santa Barbara, our youngest son plays football and baseball, our cousin is a basketball center for UC Santa Clara, etc..

In addition to the kids having their team hoodies, we have hoodies for each team to show our support at games. We also get the kids other hoodies because its cold in the mornings, but gets too warm for a coat in the afternoon. They can fold hoodies and put them in their backpacks.

I was done with this post but I had to add this...my fiance just walked in the room. He is a black male. 6', 185 lbs. He has on jeans and a black hoodie. He has a Glock .45 holstered on his waistband under his hoodie. I can't see it. I just know that because I know he doesn't leave home without it.

By GZ's description of a suspicious person, my fiance would definitely fit the bill. But in addition to the hoodie, the gun and Black skin, he also has a badge. He's a veteran cop in Richmond, CA, one of the most crime ridden cities in the country. He has never had to shoot a suspect.

Police officers are trained to deal with situations like the one GZ created. GZ was not trained but the law allowed him to carry a gun and make his own determination of when he should use it. I think the law makers are even more at fault than GZ.

GZ had no idea who he was following. It could've been a cop..or just a kid walking around. He automatically assumed the worst. You should never judge a book by its cover.
 
You are absolutely right.....it wasn't a game....but since your comparison was made between an innocuous sporting event and a violent death, one must use metaphor to compare the ways to "tap out" in these completely dissimilar situations.

Being QUITE familiar with the term "tap out", it is an absolute FACT that there are many ways that GZ could (metaphorically) have "signaled the end of the match". NONE OF THOSE WAYS involves the use of a gun to kill an innocent teen....

jmo

My comparison was made when i was asked to say why I believe that Trayvon would win a physical fight. I said I watch grappling and I can almost always (as most can, probably) tell who will win just by looking at the two on the mat before the match begins.

The comparison was just to demonstrate that it's quite possible to see who would win a physical match.

Not that Trayvon and GZ were grappling, although some here have continued to think that GZ could have just tapped out instead of having to shoot Trayvon.

I'm TRULY curious. How do two men in a fight end it by one signaling the end? If you're thinking he could have drawn his gun and pointed it, there have certainly been deaths of gun owners when their guns are wrestled away from them. It's not effective, in a fight, to draw and point your gun and believe it will end there after the fight has begun and the two combatants are still in contact.
 
My comparison was made when i was asked to say why I believe that Trayvon would win a physical fight. I said I watch grappling and I can almost always (as most can, probably) tell who will win just by looking at the two on the mat before the match begins.

The comparison was just to demonstrate that it's quite possible to see who would win a physical match.

Not that Trayvon and GZ were grappling, although some here have continued to think that GZ could have just tapped out instead of having to shoot Trayvon.

I'm TRULY curious. How do two men in a fight end it by one signaling the end? If you're thinking he could have drawn his gun and pointed it, there have certainly been deaths of gun owners when their guns are wrestled away from them. It's not effective, in a fight, to draw and point your gun and believe it will end there after the fight has begun and the two combatants are still in contact.


bbm

It wasn't two men......it was one over zealous guy with a gun and a teenager. <mod snip>
 
Speaking of knowing his attorney, here is something I found interesting about George Zimmerman's first choice.

Craig Sonner spent three years, from 2003-2005, working as a prosecutor for the Seminole County State Attorney's office. He worked for Norm Wolfinger prosecuting misdemeanors and DUIs. He was initially contacted about the case by George's father. I found it strange that Zimmerman would hire an attorney with no homicide experience, but now I wonder if he was chosen for his connections, or based on a recommendation by a former employer? Moo

What do you guys think?
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._defense-team-lawrence-o-donnell-wofl-channel
 
I think maybe you don't know the term "tap out".

That's when one opponent taps on the other opponent, and that signals the end of the match.

No, GZ couldn't "tap out" of a fight with Trayvon. It wasn't a game.

And, GZ wasn't going to let this one get away, like the others as he stated during the 911 call or whoever he called.
 
Speaking of knowing his attorney, here is something I found interesting about George Zimmerman's first choice.

Craig Sonner spent three years, from 2003-2005, working as a prosecutor for the Seminole County State Attorney's office. He worked for Norm Wolfinger prosecuting misdemeanors and DUIs. He was initially contacted about the case by George's father. I found it strange that Zimmerman would hire an attorney with no homicide experience, but now I wonder if he was chosen for his connections, or based on a recommendation by a former employer? Moo

What do you guys think?
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._defense-team-lawrence-o-donnell-wofl-channel

Certainly connections were important! Aren't they almost always?
 
This recording clears up where the body of TM was located.

Lying in the grass [1:29]......Behind 2831 Retreat View Circle in the backyard [1:52]

This is the residence of Selma Mora Lamilla and her roommate Mary Cutcher.

Mr. Martin was about 35 feet off from the location he showed us. I can't fault a grieving father for that. I'd still be trying to remember my own name.

**Please accept my apologies for any confusion caused by the earlier image posted last night showing the Retreat View addys. I overlooked the fact that the building has 6 units as opposed to the 5 that I counted on Twin Trees**

FYI - Some of the reports list the body as being between 1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2831 Retreat View Circle. 1231 Twin Trees is the middle unit in the row of townhouses across from 2831 Retreat View.

Where are you doing your property searches? The Seminole County Property Appraisers Office site does not have information on the two units north of 1231. It's weird - I've searched by address and parcel number and those two units simply do not come up. They are both listed on real estate sites as being for sale, so maybe they've never sold and the builder still has them, but the units should still show on the Property Appraiser's site!
 
O/T. My 21 year old son finally got a full time job at a small sign company several weeks ago. Yesterday , they gave him four black free hoodies with the company name on the back in white letters. Just for the record.
rotterdam: Thanks ~ you've hit on the main problem with identifying someone as a threat just because they are wearing a hoodie.

When my daughter was a baby, she had an adorable red hoodie with little animals on it. When her two brothers grew into it, they also wore it, and I still have it because I'm sentimental. I never knew that my sweet babies might be considered threatening because they wore a hoodie to keep their ears warm.

In my county school system, hoodies in school colors are the ONLY approved coat that kids can wear to school in the winter. And that is for every school in every neighborhood, city or rural, and there is absolutely nothing racial about it.

In fact, it is just a way to make sure that kids can be easily identified as belonging on a certain school campus for safety reasons, and that goes back to the Columbine Killers - the white kids who wore black military trench coats to hide large weapons before they massacred people in their schools.

In my state, every school band has a special hoodie, and every school sports team has a specific hoodie, that is part of the UNIFORM. I'm sure Trayvon had a hoodie for his football team because my son had one for his team - all 8 years that he played. There is nothing negative whatsoever about a hoodie worn for sports. Coaches wear them, and they sell them for parents, too!
 
A Conversation With Trayvon Martin's Mother

I have no time for anger. I don't want to grant it a place in my heart. I simply want justice. I don't hate him and I'm not angry at him. But my son died and we deserve to know what happened. It's not for the police to determine justice. It's for the courts. And we'll stand by what the court says. But that's what I'm focused on. We want an arrest. But it's not out of anger or hatred. I have too much to do to be sidetracked with any of that. But when your son dies and there isn't even an arrest, it makes it so much harder.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/sybrina-fulton-trayvon-martin_b_1409832.html
 
No. I think he was expressing a fear that Trayvon might come break into his home, which was the crime that the neighborhood was dealing with, that caused the formation of the Neighborhood Watch.

If he was afraid that Trayvon would do him great bodily harm, he would not have followed him, or at least would have drawn his gun. At which point, there would have been no physical altercation.

But this was GZ's fear. Why did TM have to die because GZ was fearful of what??? GZ had nothing to validate that fear because it was just a 17 year old walking back to the house after running out to the store. GZ sized TM up without any substantial facts, just his gut feelings. LE would have come out, stopped TM asked him where he was going and they would have been on their way. Animals sense fear in people and I believe that is true of people. We already know GZ presents himself as being fearful by his tone of voice and what he says on the tape. So if he was really fearful why did he go after TM. If he was really fearful TM would have also picked up on that and would be fearful himself. That is why LE should have handled it. They know how to handle situations when approaching a subject. jmo
 
Wonder if SA asked SPD to remove all info from their website? Could that be an indication that action may be taken very soon, possibly an arrest. That information won't be available to the potential pool of jurors.
 
The neo-Nazi story falls under this umbrella:

<snip>

We will no longer allow discussion of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, or the Black Panther protest(s). There are way too many <modsnips> and timeouts to continue this discussion. We will allow MSM links to such protests, but no discussion.
 
Speaking of knowing his attorney, here is something I found interesting about George Zimmerman's first choice.

Craig Sonner spent three years, from 2003-2005, working as a prosecutor for the Seminole County State Attorney's office. He worked for Norm Wolfinger prosecuting misdemeanors and DUIs. He was initially contacted about the case by George's father. I found it strange that Zimmerman would hire an attorney with no homicide experience, but now I wonder if he was chosen for his connections, or based on a recommendation by a former employer? Moo

What do you guys think?
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._defense-team-lawrence-o-donnell-wofl-channel

Why would his former employee recommend someone without experience of defending those accused of homicide? I am not sure this lawyer was even familiar with "stand your ground" laws based on the original quotes in the media that Zimmerman will not be using "stand your ground" laws. If I was accused of anything I would want someone with experience in the type of cases I was accused of.
 
rotterdam: Thanks ~ you've hit on the main problem with identifying someone as a threat just because they are wearing a hoodie.

When my daughter was a baby, she had an adorable red hoodie with little animals on it. When her two brothers grew into it, they also wore it, and I still have it because I'm sentimental. I never knew that my sweet babies might be considered threatening because they wore a hoodie to keep their ears warm.

In my county school system, hoodies in school colors are the ONLY approved coat that kids can wear to school in the winter. And that is for every school in every neighborhood, city or rural, and there is absolutely nothing racial about it.

In fact, it is just a way to make sure that kids can be easily identified as belonging on a certain school campus for safety reasons, and that goes back to the Columbine Killers - the white kids who wore black military trench coats to hide large weapons before they massacred people in their schools.

In my state, every school band has a special hoodie, and every school sports team has a specific hoodie, that is part of the UNIFORM. I'm sure Trayvon had a hoodie for his football team because my son had one for his team - all 8 years that he played. There is nothing negative whatsoever about a hoodie worn for sports. Coaches wear them, and they sell them for parents, too!

BBM

I'm going to take that statement further and say there is nothing wrong with wearing hoodies at all, for anyone!

I'm a 50something yr old white woman who wears hoodies all winter long. I wear them because they are warm, soft, comfy, and I can pull the hood up when my ears get cold! Since I have super short hair that is quite often!

Really, folks need to get over the issues they have with clothing. If there are those that are so fearful of something in every day life then mayhaps they need to look at the world thru better eyes than ones filled with fear.
 
A Conversation With Trayvon Martin's Mother

I have no time for anger. I don't want to grant it a place in my heart. I simply want justice. I don't hate him and I'm not angry at him. But my son died and we deserve to know what happened. It's not for the police to determine justice. It's for the courts. And we'll stand by what the court says. But that's what I'm focused on. We want an arrest. But it's not out of anger or hatred. I have too much to do to be sidetracked with any of that. But when your son dies and there isn't even an arrest, it makes it so much harder.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/sybrina-fulton-trayvon-martin_b_1409832.html

An amazing woman. Thanks
 
Yes, SA did request that all information concerning this case be removed from the SPD website. Information concerning this request is on the SPD site.
 
A Conversation With Trayvon Martin's Mother

I have no time for anger. I don't want to grant it a place in my heart. I simply want justice. I don't hate him and I'm not angry at him. But my son died and we deserve to know what happened. It's not for the police to determine justice. It's for the courts. And we'll stand by what the court says. But that's what I'm focused on. We want an arrest. But it's not out of anger or hatred. I have too much to do to be sidetracked with any of that. But when your son dies and there isn't even an arrest, it makes it so much harder.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/sybrina-fulton-trayvon-martin_b_1409832.html
Sybrina Fulton has so much class!!!!!!!!! I could not be that way if it was my child who was Murdered..... IMHO JMHO and all that
 
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