17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #26

[LolaMoon08]

Good point. And I for one think it highly unlikely GZ was returning to his truck. But even more than that, I don't think there's a chance in Hell that TM turned around and sought to confront the man he had just evaded (per the gf).

I do believe Trayvon asked George why he was following him when he seen George was behind him again. I believe this is when George "reached for his phone" and replied "What are you doing here?"

I do not believe that Trayvon said "What's your *advertiser censored**ing problem, homes" with George replying "Nothing" as he "reached for his phone."

I do believe they did exchange words, but I don't think any physical altercation started until George "reached for his phone."

MOO

 

[Nova]

So I'm guessing when they get called to the witness stand because they've run onto all these programs stating that Zimmerman told them this and Zimmerman told them that, we will see how much they have embellished?


~jmo~

Could be. But I don't know if we'll ever see them on the witness stand.

I know there is an exception to the hearsay rule for incriminating statements. Is there one for exculpatory statements such as the stories GZ apparently told his family?

Sr., Jr. and Taefe aren't actually witnesses to the incident. They might testify on GZ's injuries after the incident, I suppose.

 

[MsCharlieChan]

Like I believe that "reaching for the phone" was actually "reaching for the gun." There has to be a reason behind them even mentioning George "reaching" for anything. Why would that even be brought up? Get what I'm saying?

Brilliant deduction! IMO, that sounds contrived to say that GZ himself was "innocently" making a phone call, but TM "jumped the gun," making an assumption.

Perhaps this gives credence to TM having more of a SYG-type situation than we realized. Maybe TM saw the gun and only then did a struggle ensued.

 

[Nova]

I do believe Trayvon asked George why he was following him when he seen George was behind him again. I believe this is when George "reached for his phone" and replied "What are you doing here?"

I do not believe that Trayvon said "What's your *advertiser censored**ing problem, homes" with George replying "Nothing" as he "reached for his phone."

I do believe they did exchange words, but I don't think any physical altercation started until George "reached for his phone."

MOO

I rather agree. I suppose if GZ startled TM sufficiently, TM might have taken a swing out of instinct. But I'm more inclined to believe the gf's account, if it is as reported.

 

[RANCH]

Just as I said in my previous post, I guess we will see how much they have embellished when they are on the witness stand because of the things they have stated Zimmerman told them.

I would love to see Zimmerman Jr. up against Ms. Corey. I bet she could get to the bottom of just how conscious Zimmerman was, how he was screaming with a mouth full of blood not to mention with Trayvon's hand covering his mouth.

~jmo~

I guess he could say "I wasn't there so how could I know what happened?"

 

[gxm]

My point is that he was never enrolled in the CJ program. I am sure he hoped to be, but as you stated he needed the associates degree first. After that, he would need to apply and be accepted.
IMO he mislead people by telling them he was already in the CJ program.
JMO

IMO, he could easily claim he was pursuing a Criminal Justice degree and not be lying. As we don't have a recording of his exact wording, we'll never know whether he overstated or not. You are entitled to your opinion, but the fact is that the university's own website lists the General Studies degree as a prerequisite to the CJ program. Anyone pursuing a CJ degree is going to have to go through the General Studies first (if they don't have the prerequisite courses). IMO, it's absurd to accuse someone of lying when they are apparently following the university's own protocols for a CJ degree.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[LolaMoon08]

I rather agree. I suppose if GZ startled TM sufficiently, TM might have taken a swing out of instinct. But I'm more inclined to believe the gf's account, if it is as reported.

I believe the "pushing" noise the girlfriend heard was probably Trayvon pushing George to try and run again, but George grabbed hold of him by the jacket or arm and they both went down and that is when the struggle over the gun began.

MOO

ETA: OT but I am totally cheating on my husband Maks with Will (the beautiful Cuban man) on DWTS!!

ETA: Another reason I believe that George grabbed Trayvon either by the jacket or the arm is because the phone disconnected which would, IMO, make sense with someone grabbing at you and pulling the cord along with it...

 

[IzzyBlanche]

From personal experience, I can assure you that when one's head is being pounded into a hard surface, one fears the worst. One of the most sickening sounds you'll ever hear is the sound of your own head hitting a hard surface (a tile floor in my case). The fear that the next blow may be the last is very real.

I understand the people don't believe GZ's story. But please don't mock or diminish the very real fright the victim of a brutal beating experiences.
JMO, OMO, and :moo:

BBM.

I don't believe I was.

 

[LolaMoon08]

So, we've determined GZ was not a Neighborhood Watch Captain, right?

Huh?

But that is another thing... early reports had him on duty as the neighborhood watch and later reports had him going to the store... just sayin'.

 

[Adrienne37]

Could be. But I don't know if we'll ever see them on the witness stand.

I know there is an exception to the hearsay rule for incriminating statements. Is there one for exculpatory statements such as the stories GZ apparently told his family?

Sr., Jr. and Taefe aren't actually witnesses to the incident. They might testify on GZ's injuries after the incident, I suppose.

According to what Richard Hornsby told us last week when he stopped in for a visit, if Zimmerman specifically told these friends and family members anything, they could be called to stand the testify.


~jmo~

 

[gxm]

Another thing I guess could be asked is... if George was waiting for LE to call him back so he could tell them where he was, why wasn't the phone still in his hand?

eta: Why did he have to reach for a phone that should have been in his hand? How long before he hung up the phone until the altercation?

Maybe he dropped it during the struggle? Maybe that was what he was searching for on the ground?

 

[m00c0w]

You stated:


That is why I want to know what cases you know of that fit YOUR criteria? I have not heard of cases like that but those claims have been made to support the SYG laws.

I am NOT asking about SYG law cases, I am asking for specific examples of self defense cases PRE-DATING SYG where the people defending themselves or their families were "arrested and held in jail for months" or lost "their job, their admission to college, their children if it's a single parent".

You are the one who stated that - please name specific cases. Thank you.

There was Christine Grace, who was arrested, charged with second degree murder, and then convicted of manslaughter after stabbing her abusive boyfriend as he was beating her senseless in her kitchen, inviting friends to come join him. This was in '89.

There's Marissa Alexander that's currently being prosecuted by Angela Corey when all signs point to her having had immunity under the SYG law. She's been in jail since the alleged crime took place (and she never even injured anyone).

You also have this woman:

http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/80750267.html

Who was arrested, charged with second degree murder, and held in jail on a $50,000 bond... Only for a judge to have the charges dropped because he ruled she acted in self defense.

Here's a more recent case that occurred while SYG was even in effect. The man was incarcerated for two years (before he was even tried) before he was finally able to reach an appellate court, who found that he was immune per the law.

http://opinions.1dca.org/written/opinions2009/08-19-2009/09-2501.pdf

It's odd how you claim that the law grants immunity unfairly, but it seems that victims are still capable of getting wrung through the system with the new law in place. As I stated before, if the police are corrupt... they're corrupt. No amount of legislation will change that. It's ultimately their decision to arrest someone or not, or to carry out an investigation. As you can see, that option still clearly exists and is exercised.

 

[suzihawk]

From personal experience, I can assure you that when one's head is being pounded into a hard surface, one fears the worst. One of the most sickening sounds you'll ever hear is the sound of your own head hitting a hard surface (a tile floor in my case). The fear that the next blow may be the last is very real.

I understand the people don't believe GZ's story. But please don't mock or diminish the very real fright the victim of a brutal beating experiences.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

I'm really sorry you had to experience that, gxm.

 

[Allusonz]

I do believe Trayvon asked George why he was following him when he seen George was behind him again. I believe this is when George "reached for his phone" and replied "What are you doing here?"

I do not believe that Trayvon said "What's your *advertiser censored**ing problem, homes" with George replying "Nothing" as he "reached for his phone."

I do believe they did exchange words, but I don't think any physical altercation started until George "reached for his phone."

MOO

BBM

I as well do not believe this was said.

This post did bring bring another thought to mind and that is IF he was reaching for his phone and I do mean IF, would this of been the time the gun was seen.

So many questions; so few answers.

I might be forced to put my straight jacket (spelled this way on purpose )back on and head to my asylum

 

[RANCH]

I believe the "pushing" noise the girlfriend heard was probably Trayvon pushing George to try and run again, but George grabbed hold of him by the jacket or arm and they both went down and that is when the struggle over the gun began.

MOO

ETA: OT but I am totally cheating on my husband Maks with Will (the beautiful Cuban man) on DWTS!!

ETA: Another reason I believe that George grabbed Trayvon either by the jacket or the arm is because the phone disconnected which would, IMO, make sense with someone grabbing at you and pulling the cord along with it...

Here's quote from an ABC article with the GF's comments.

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."

I'm not sure how you got such a detailed account of what happened from this but I guess it could be possible.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T44XfdWNnJe

 

[SuziQ]

Could be. But I don't know if we'll ever see them on the witness stand.

I know there is an exception to the hearsay rule for incriminating statements. Is there one for exculpatory statements such as the stories GZ apparently told his family?

Sr., Jr. and Taefe aren't actually witnesses to the incident. They might testify on GZ's injuries after the incident, I suppose.

IIRC, they can and will most likely be called to testify about what GZ told them. If someone is talking to you about themselves then it's not hearsay? That's the way it was explained to me.

 

[csziggy]

Just FYI, here is the case that they say started it all.

<snip only>
Here was a 77-year-old retiree asleep with his wife in an RV outside their hurricane-damaged home in 2004. And here came a menacing intruder, prowling through the dark, bursting into the trailer. The homeowner shot the intruder, then had to wait months — painful, anxiety-filled months in legal jeopardy — before prosecutors decided the two shots he fired were justified, that what he did was protect himself and his wife.

That's too long, said the senator who introduced the bill.

"You're entitled to protect your castle," Durell Peaden said at the time. "Why should you have to hire a lawyer to say, 'This guy is innocent'?"

http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...-born-of-2004-case-but-story-has-been/1225164

From your own link:

But if you really look at the case, you see that the story told by proponents of "stand your ground" is a distortion. And it's being distorted to this day.

What happened on that warm and windy night on the banks of Big Lagoon was a tragedy for everyone involved. But it was not a case that suggested a need for a new law.

<SNIP>

Three months later, on Jan. 30, the Workmans read in the same paper that the State Attorney's Office had ruled the shooting justified, that Workman "was confronted with circumstances and conditions beyond his control that resulted in the unfortunate death of Mr. Cox."

Weeks later, when the "stand your ground" law was introduced in the Legislature, a reporter asked David Rimmer, the assistant state attorney who decided not to charge Workman, for his opinion. He would not comment for this story because he is a judge now, but he told the Pensacola News Journal in 2005, "I think the law's fine as it is."

<SNIP>
Workman hesitates to offer an opinion on the "stand your ground" law. In 2005, he told a reporter he was "kind of in favor of it," but that he "can see some pitfalls if you make it too loose."

BBM

Did you read the entire article? The facts of this case do not support your premise or the need for a SYG law. The prosecutor on the case does not think so, the man who was defending himself can see problems with it.

And the defenders of SYG although using this case as one of their main excuses for it have distorted the facts if they ever knew them:

"Original Senate sponsor Durell Peaden said Tuesday it was crafted after an old man from Pensacola shot an intruder who tried to loot his hurricane-ravaged home," reporters from the Times/Herald Tallahassee bureau wrote in March. Peaden couldn't remember the man's name, but he said he had to hire a lawyer to defend himself.

Workman never hired a lawyer.

BBM

Got another case as an example?

 

[Allusonz]

tbh, I'm so tired of seeing Natasha Richardson's injury repeatedly being compared to GZ's alleged injuries. Obviously, GZ's alleged injuries were no where near as serious as NR's were, or he'd have died by now.

Also, I believe someone yesterday pointed out that there is a big difference between being "cleared" by the EMT's and refusing further medical care when the EMT's suggest it.

It can't go both ways--with GZ allegedly moving his head off the concrete for fear the next hit would, as his brother said, leave him in diapers and being spoon-fed the rest of his life, or having such minor or nonexistent injuries that the EMT's and GZ did find them worrisome enough to seek immediate medical attention. It doesn't jive for me.

IMO

RBBM

I don't think from the majority of posts I have read that people are trying to compare the two injuries (maybe some are).

From what I have read in posts they are trying to point out the possible consequences of a head injury.

I believe her name is brought up simply for the fact that it is a name that many people do recognize and know the sad circumstances of.

 

[flourish]

BBM

I as well do not believe this was said.

This post did bring bring another thought to mind and that is IF he was reaching for his phone and I do mean IF, would this of been the time the gun was seen.

So many questions; so few answers.

I might be forced to put my straight jacket (spelled this way on purpose )back on and head to my asylum

Oh! Did you ever get the designer straitjackets manufactured? I want one! There's even a straitjacket wedding dress I saw online!

(btw, it bugs me when I don't get "inside jokes," so the straitjacket joke goes back to the Amanda Knox threads when we all thought we were going to literally go insane)

 

[LolaMoon08]

Here's quote from an ABC article with the GF's comments.

I'm not sure how you got such a detailed account of what happened from this but I guess it could be possible.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T44XfdWNnJe

Well, usually I try to take everything, that we have, into account and come to the most reasonable, IMO, thing that could have taken place. I can see the cord to the earphones becoming disconnected as someone pulls at your jacket or arm and the cord becomes intangled with the movement and disconnects from the phone? The phone was in his pocket and as far as we know, it was still in his pocket when police arrived... where were the earphones?

MOO