2009.11.19 Defense files motion suggesting Kronk as the killer. #3

[LambChop]

Caylee was last seen on 6/16/08:

1. In the Florida heat her body would have been a complete skeleton approx 2 weeks - Kobi reports (defense expert) - but we can give it a month here;

2. ME stated bones were scattered by animals after decomposition started shortly after body was placed at the remains site, no where else.

3. August 18th the hurricane came through - 2 months after last seen.

So at what point would anyone be riding around with the body of this child in their car. The only person I know of who has a car that smells like a dead body is KC. So why would anyone think someone else is responsible. It doesn't make sense.

While speculation is fine...it may be better to start with the facts we know about the remains site. JMO

 

[notthatsmart]

I know whose car was contaminated prior to this time. The same person who had care, control, and custody of Caylee. The same person who lied to investigators about every detail related to her child's disappearance. The same person who used to hang out in those woods where the body was found.

Then there should be no objection to taking a look at Rk car. If anything to cooborate what was just said. BTW It is my opinion that Kc hung out in a different part of a different woods.

I want to ask again, because we lost our track in the other thread. If you are suggesting that RK was somehow involved in killing Caylee or disposing of her body on October 9th, why had he reported a bag/body/corpse/skull in that exact location two months earlier? Who was the adolescent that screamed for help that morning, prompting the 911 calls?

Not suggesting he did anything. Just sleuthing to make sure he didn't do anything. Just cooborating LE story line.
He may have reported the bag earlier to cover up anything that he did later. And he said that it was a 50 percent chance it was that exact location.
Perhaps the screaming child was Caylee. That is the area that the witnesses pointed.
One way to preserve a body would be to keep it alive.
Another way to preserve a body and keep it from decomposing would be to freeze it. Who was it that suggested they freeze the snake?

How do you explain the coinciding evidence of decomp in KC's trunk at the same time her daughter disappears, which also coincides with the amount of plant growth through the remains, which would have been two months before the October 9th incident?
This part is off topic, but I would love to sleuth it with you in a Kc trunk thread.
This is all just discussion and I am open to other theories. I am not sure what happened here, so I am sleuthing it. The docs and press are missing a lot of valuable questions and answers. IMO
Speculation is a great way to consider all possibilities; I just don't want the actual evidence overlooked in developing unlikely scenarios. MOO

.....

 

[notthatsmart]

Caylee was last seen on 6/16/08:

1. In the Florida heat her body would have been a complete skeleton approx 2 weeks - Kobi reports (defense expert) - but we can give it a month here;

2. ME stated bones were scattered by animals after decomposition started shortly after body was placed at the remains site, no where else.

3. August 18th the hurricane came through - 2 months after last seen.

So at what point would anyone be riding around with the body of this child in their car. The only person I know of who has a car that smells like a dead body is KC. So why would anyone think someone else is responsible. It doesn't make sense.

That may be because Kc's and TL car is the only cars we checked.

While speculation is fine...it may be better to start with the facts we know about the remains site. JMO

I think speculation is great. I have seen some excellent sleuthing in these threads. Jbean showed us that the truth was that LE did not secure the pontiac until the 17th. (disturbing) there are many fine examples of speculation and sleuthing on this forum. I welcome it. I agree it is best we start with the facts at the remains site and that is where I started speculating. I don't assume the body was there in June. I think it is possible it was put there in October. Just my opinion.

 

[LambChop]

Actually I believe I would trust reports from the ME and other reports from the State's experts before I would trust anyone's speculation. JMO

 

[notthatsmart]

I think those charges were dropped and his record was expunged years ago. And as we have discussed here many, many, many times on this thread that the woman said she had not been kidnapped. So I am not sure why that is even an issue today. And wasn't it Kronk who brought it to the public's attention.

There is no evidence pointing to Kronk. None..

Can you point me to the thread where the woman said she had not been kidnapped. This could help me out. I tried to do a search but it didn't bring anything up like that. Do you know who the woman is or her name? Sparks said that RK father told her that Rk had duct tape and handcuffs in his car.

This was brought up because someone had said there was no LE information to show anything about RK. IMO

 

[LC446]

Just to clear this up. RK was charged with kidnapping a long time ago and it went to the Grand Jury. The Grand Jury dropped the charges. However in order for it to get to the Grand Jury in the first place, LE must believe it, and the SA must believe it, otherwise, why would they bother. IMO

Both police investigators and district attorney's refer cases to the grand jury when a case is questionable. It is simply a way for both of these entities to show that they have done their due diligence. I have seen this happen most commonly in sexual assault cases in which there is simply one person's word against another's. The district attorney presents the facts gathered to the grand jury and sometimes the police officer and others are called to testify. The grand jury weighs the credibility of each and determines whether there is probable cause to indict the person. Presentation of a case to the grand jury doesn't mean that everyone "believed" it occurred. Put very simply it is a good way for everyone to CYA.

Back on topic...I can only say what everyone else has said repeatedly...Kronk did not have access to Caylee and there is 0 evidence tying him to this crime.

 

[LambChop]

I believe this is an issue not relevant to this case and you could find it easily yourself, I'm sure, because I believe it is in this thread. I don't feel it warrants any more discussion myself. No bearing on this case and certainly is not being considered as evidence. JMO

 

[Rlaub44]

Originally Posted by Rlaub44
I know whose car was contaminated prior to this time. The same person who had care, control, and custody of Caylee. The same person who lied to investigators about every detail related to her child's disappearance. The same person who used to hang out in those woods where the body was found.

Then there should be no objection to taking a look at Rk car. If anything to cooborate what was just said. BTW It is my opinion that Kc hung out in a different part of a different woods.

I want to ask again, because we lost our track in the other thread. If you are suggesting that RK was somehow involved in killing Caylee or disposing of her body on October 9th, why had he reported a bag/body/corpse/skull in that exact location two months earlier? Who was the adolescent that screamed for help that morning, prompting the 911 calls?

Not suggesting he did anything. Just sleuthing to make sure he didn't do anything. Just cooborating LE story line.
He may have reported the bag earlier to cover up anything that he did later. And he said that it was a 50 percent chance it was that exact location.
Perhaps the screaming child was Caylee. That is the area that the witnesses pointed.
One way to preserve a body would be to keep it alive.
Another way to preserve a body and keep it from decomposing would be to freeze it. Who was it that suggested they freeze the snake?

How do you explain the coinciding evidence of decomp in KC's trunk at the same time her daughter disappears, which also coincides with the amount of plant growth through the remains, which would have been two months before the October 9th incident?
This part is off topic, but I would love to sleuth it with you in a Kc trunk thread.
This is all just discussion and I am open to other theories. I am not sure what happened here, so I am sleuthing it. The docs and press are missing a lot of valuable questions and answers. IMO
Speculation is a great way to consider all possibilities; I just don't want the actual evidence overlooked in developing unlikely scenarios. MOO
.....

I'm sorry you feel the last portion is off-topic. It truly isn't if you feel RK had something to do with Caylee's disappearance, because these are all facts that point to Caylee dying and being placed in that trunk and the dumpsite during the early part of her disappearance.

I had a few questions about your thoughts above, if you don't mind indulging me.

1. What documents led you to conclude that KC hung out in different woods? I had assumed that these were the same stretch of woods that Kio mentioned to LE in her statement. If you can point me to something different, I'd appreciate it.

2. Do you find it likely that witnesses could have mistaken a two year old's screams for that of an adolescent?

3. While sleuthing possibilities, would you give more weight to a car that was purposefully abandoned with the smell of decomposition, or a report that someone may have bought a new car?

4. Would you tend to be more suspicious of a mother who didn't help authorities find her missing daughter, or of a stranger that contacted police several times to report his suspicious sighting, knowing that without his report, there would be nothing to connect him to the victim at all?

Thanks for considering these. I have no problem with police looking into Kronk's old car, or pulling his work records to see where he was on the days in question; I just don't find RK anywhere near the level of suspect that Casey is, thanks to numerous pieces of actual evidence that don't require a lot of speculation.

 

[notthatsmart]

I believe this is an issue not relevant to this case and you could find it easily yourself, I'm sure, because I believe it is in this thread. I don't feel it warrants any more discussion myself. No bearing on this case and certainly is not being considered as evidence. JMO

I certainly respect your choice.

I find it to be relevant to this case. The defense has suggested that Rk be looked at as a suspect. That is not the press, forum sites or even me, That is the defense in this case. The defense lawyers are equal respected officers of the court in this case. Anything they say is to be taken very seriously by me.
Equally anything Sa says is to be taken seriously by me. Equally anything the Judge says will be taken serious by me, and finally anything the jury says will be taken serious by me and duly respected. IMO

 

[LambChop]

You are absolutely right and SA/LE say Kronk is not a suspect and I take that seriously. SA also claims KC is a suspect and I take that very seriously. So I guess were done here.

 

[Mamabear1963]

One more thought...no grand jury has been called regarding Kronk in this case...KC's trials seem to be moving along...it doesn't seem like they are going to look further into RK...this was merely pot stirring to create reasonable doubt...I guess we will see if the jury buys it

 

[notthatsmart]

I'm sorry you feel the last portion is off-topic. It truly isn't if you feel RK had something to do with Caylee's disappearance, because these are all facts that point to Caylee dying and being placed in that trunk and the dumpsite during the early part of her disappearance.

I think the trunk is off topic, so I worry about getting into trouble. I will just say that it is my opinion after reading all the docs, that there is very little trace evidence in that trunk. The trace evidence that is there, is highly questionable. Furthermore, in other cases where a body has been found in a trunk, there is lots of evidence. imo
I had a few questions about your thoughts above, if you don't mind indulging me.

1. What documents led you to conclude that KC hung out in different woods? I had assumed that these were the same stretch of woods that Kio mentioned to LE in her statement. If you can point me to something different, I'd appreciate it.

In another thread today, there were posters posting pictures of the woods that clearly show that what Kio pointed out was a complete different area. Furthermore, I am a former child myself and I would not put my play area in a ditch or a swamp if I had other dry ground areas.
2. Do you find it likely that witnesses could have mistaken a two year old's screams for that of an adolescent?

I don't find it likely, I find it possible. 3.

While sleuthing possibilities, would you give more weight to a car that was purposefully abandoned with the smell of decomposition, or a report that someone may have bought a new car?

I don't believe it was purposely abandoned, the tow truck driver said it was locked and Simon Birch confirmed it was out of gas, and Kc and Ah actuall went and purchased a gas can.IMO
I believe the smell was just trash and that is why LE didn't secure the car for 2 days.IMO


4. Would you tend to be more suspicious of a mother who didn't help authorities find her missing daughter, or of a stranger that contacted police several times to report his suspicious sighting, knowing that without his report, there would be nothing to connect him to the victim at all?

I was and did tend to be more suspicious of the mother until more things begin to come out about RK.

Thanks for considering these. I have no problem with police looking into Kronk's old car, or pulling his work records to see where he was on the days in question; I just don't find RK anywhere near the level of suspect that Casey is, thanks to numerous pieces of actual evidence that don't require a lot of speculation.

Well I agree Kc should be the top suspect, but I would not turn my eye away from other suspects. IMO

 

[Tulessa]

I know whose car was contaminated prior to this time. The same person who had care, control, and custody of Caylee. The same person who lied to investigators about every detail related to her child's disappearance. The same person who used to hang out in those woods where the body was found.

I want to ask again, because we lost our track in the other thread. If you are suggesting that RK was somehow involved in killing Caylee or disposing of her body on October 9th, why had he reported a bag/body/corpse/skull in that exact location two months earlier? Who was the adolescent that screamed for help that morning, prompting the 911 calls? How do you explain the coinciding evidence of decomp in KC's trunk at the same time her daughter disappears, which also coincides with the amount of plant growth through the remains, which would have been two months before the October 9th incident?

Speculation is a great way to consider all possibilities; I just don't want the actual evidence overlooked in developing unlikely scenarios. MOO

Wow! That deserves more than a thanks! :blowkiss:

 

[Tulessa]

Well I agree Kc should be the top suspect, but I would not turn my eye away from other suspects. IMO

Answer the questions lol.

 

[BeanE]

I think speculation is great. I have seen some excellent sleuthing in these threads. Jbean showed us that the truth was that LE did not secure the pontiac until the 17th. (disturbing) there are many fine examples of speculation and sleuthing on this forum. I welcome it. I agree it is best we start with the facts at the remains site and that is where I started speculating. I don't assume the body was there in June. I think it is possible it was put there in October. Just my opinion.

Nope. I recently did quite a bit of research and participated in a discussion with JBean and others on just that topic. The Pontiac was most definitely secured on the 16th, and if you read the posts in the most recent Pontiac thread where the discussion took place, you'll see that clearly verified.

Here's a link for you:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92537"]Pontiac: Sealing off and processing the car #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Wow. Just saw you were actually posting in that thread.

 

[BeanE]

Actually I believe I would trust reports from the ME and other reports from the State's experts before I would trust anyone's speculation. JMO

I agree. Wild speculation is frequently destructive, not constructive. The further afoot we go from facts, logic, reason, and plain old common sense, the more pointless the effort becomes.

 

[LC446]

Well I agree Kc should be the top suspect, but I would not turn my eye away from other suspects. IMO

I understand your desire to speculate about Kronk being a viable suspect, but for it to be more than mere speculation it has to be supported by fact. Similar to the facts that support KC as the accused.

The very large hurdle that you must clear IMO to make Kronk a viable suspect is access to Caylee. Facts have supported that Caylee was discarded in that location between June 20th and 26th, per the entomology report. I have not seen any facts supporting that Kronk had access to Caylee prior to this time. We can hypothesize and bend the facts to try to make it so but it just doesn't fit.

When you or anyone else can give me supported facts to indicate that Kronk had access to Caylee prior to these dates I would be happy to entertain him as a suspect. Until then, I will go with the supported facts in the case.

I feel like we are beating a dead horse, so I will refrain from posting about this again.

 

[Rlaub44]

I believe the smell was just trash and that is why LE didn't secure the car for 2 days.IMO

Snipped.

I respect your opinion, but I trust the science from the Body Farm air testing, the hits by cadaver dogs, and the testimony of GA, Simon Burch, and LE about the smell of decomposition, along with the hair showing the "death band" that DNA matched to a female member of the family.

In my opinion, and that of LE, Caylee's body was placed in, and decomposed in, KC's trunk. If you doubt that finding, then I can see why you are looking for other suspects. I find myself wondering what forensic evidence would be enough to convince you that KC should stand trial in the death of her little girl.

We will have to wait and see how a jury compares the expert testimony regarding the scientific findings vs. the character assassination of RK by a few ex-girlfriends.

For me, RK's prior bad acts pale in comparison to the weight of KC's prior bad acts + post-disappearance behavior + forensics. I cannot know exactly what happened to Caylee, but I am absolutely certain that KC does know and continues to cover-up and lie about it.

 

[JBean]

Here is my word to the wise.you guys, don't worry if someone is drawing different conclusions even afte reading the linked infomration. just pass it by and don't let it take over the discussion. Most of us are satisfied as to when the car was taken based on the documents we have investigated. Just ignore the posts that ignore the facts.
It truly is that easy. Don't worry about others picking up bad info because when they read all the posts and see the links the day the car was taken is not debatable. Do not worry about correcting the post time and time again because it just doesn't matter. Most read everything and will see the facts do not support some of the erroneous info.

Just scroll on by.

 

[notthatsmart]

I wonder when this motion will be addressed.