2010.04.30 All about alligators

[Maven2379]

I hate to belabor a point, but I have to ring in here on the alligator discussion. Believe me when I tell you that gators do absolutely nothing in winter but breathe, and then just barely. Their bodily functions shut down to a bare minimum. They occassionally creep out from their holes to lie in the sun for awhile, but you can practically use them as stepping stones. They are just that sluggish. (Not that I've ever attempted to do so, mind you. )

I couldn't bring myself to listen to the Cobra/Ron tapes, but I finally read the transcripts last night. When I read that part where Ron talks about the dock being "swamped with alligators", I thought surely he's talking about another visit. I can't imagine anyone growing up in central Florida and not knowing that scenario is simply absurd. But as Charlie pointed out, we've seen nothing that indicates Joe had visited the area previously, certainly not in the recent past. My conclusion: Ron was blowing smoke up you know where. He had no interest in any help Cobra might've been able to offer. If he simply disliked Cobra and didn't want him involved, he could've refused to speak with him. Instead, he deliberately led him on the wrong track, just like TN did when she lured him into the woods. Mighty strange behavior for the family of a missing child.

And Papa, ITA. Even in Florida, a damp February night is much too cold for Chef Boyardee on the porch.

Thanks for moving these posts into their own thread, Kimster.

ITA! I remember gators around my PawPaw's camp, and they did NOTHING when it was cold, and yeah the 50's doesn't sound very cold, but it is cold to us southerners, and it's even colder for the gators. LOL.


I found it very odd that a boy from Tennessee, would be schoolin a man (legally he is ) from Florida about gators. I really believe these stories of gators came from Ron, and no one else..... and I have to wonder ..... why??

I don't think Haleigh was ever in that river.

~JMO

 

[gngr~snap]

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/ofs/sjofs/fore_temp.shtml

OK today is May 1, 2010 and this link says the water temp in Palatka is btween 60 and 67.5 degrees sooo... in Feb I'd venture to say that water is much cooler.

 

[4Jacy]

Gators love red herrings, I hear.

And black olives!

 

[gngr~snap]

And black olives!

ouch? I am sorry did I say something wrong? I'm a green olive... :tipsy:
but if you meant me I apoplogize.

 

[epiphany]

Because alligators are cold-blooded, their feeding activity is dependent on water temperature. We know that humans feeding alligators alters alligators' behavior. Wondering whether disposal of deer and other animal carcasses in the river would alter alligator feeding activity during the colder months even though alligators would be expected to stop feeding when the water temperature dipped below said degrees.

 

[aoibhinn]

IIRC on February 9th at 7:00 pm it was still 57-59 degrees. That is not cold.

Joe had visited through the years weeks at a time and I thought Misty and Tommy lived in their parents home not far from the boat ramp?

IMO

I think it was Lindsy/Chelsea that mentioned Joe Overstreet had visited over the years for vacations. It was said that he only knew how to get between the various residences that the clans lived at and didn't know the area at all outside of that. He did stay at the house on Magnolia where Hank Sr. and Lisa were residing at, having moved from Tommy's(?) after a falling out with RC.
Maybe that rings a bell with someone? I can't find a link.


However, I find it hard to believe that he had anything to do with Haleigh's disappearance for the following reasons:

He harmed Haleigh as an act of revenge against Ron, without Ron knowing what had transpired - I can't see Misty protecting him at her own expense and hiding the facts in this case.

He helped dispose of the body, with Ron's consent - highly unlikely as they were on the outs. He is the last person Ron would ask to help in this case.

He helped dispose of the body, without Ron knowing what had transpired - again, having had the falling out with Ron, I can't see him going to that house and helping to cover up for Misty.

What I'm trying to get at is that the only way I see him involved would be to help someone he was very close to. Misty and Tommy don't fall into that category IMO. He has been portrayed by Misty as dangerous but from his brief tv appearances, I can't see it. She's a lot tougher than him.

Was Joe staying with Tommy (Hank Jr) or Timmy before he moved to Hank Sr.'s and Lisa's house? I'm not sure, but I think Tommy's, as it was close to the MH.

------------------------------

The only thing that is suspicious, if true, is the mention that he had slept in his clothes the night of the 9th and some detail about his sleeping hours were mentioned. But I'm not clear on the statement. Again, it was mentioned by Lindsy/Chelsea.

 

[gngr~snap]

Because alligators are cold-blooded, their feeding activity is dependent on water temperature. We know that humans feeding alligators alters alligators' behavior. Wondering whether disposal of deer and other animal carcasses in the river would alter alligator feeding activity during the colder months even though alligators would be expected to stop feeding when the water temperature dipped below said degrees.

OK this is gross but here it is...

http://www.corkscrew.audubon.org/Wildlife/Alligators.html

Cold Blood
all activity - feeding, metabolic rate and even digestion - is dependent on external temperature (feeding behavior ceases when water temperatures drop below about 60°F)
heat from sun activates digestive enzymess, so cold temperatures can kill a gator with a full stomach because the food will rot instead of digest
optimum body temperature is around 89°F; when air/water temperatures cool, alligators crawl out of the water to warm in the sun where their dark skin absorbs the heat, and when they are too warm, they return to the water to cool off; on cool windy days or hot summer days, they remain in the water

 

[Maven2379]

Because alligators are cold-blooded, their feeding activity is dependent on water temperature. We know that humans feeding alligators alters alligators' behavior. Wondering whether disposal of deer and other animal carcasses in the river would alter alligator feeding activity during the colder months even though alligators would be expected to stop feeding when the water temperature dipped below said degrees.

No, I really do not believe it would at all, an alligator's behavior ultimately relies on the temperature like all reptiles.

 

[Missingmeds]

I can tell you that first of all the gators climbing up on that dock would not be unheard of if it is concrete, if the weather were warmer, because like most reptiles they like the warmth.

But in February those gators are going to be more than likely burrowed up somewhere just sleeping.

The above statements are personal opinions based on personal experience.

 

[yosande]

Well, with all this info about alligators not feeding in Feb. why would LE believe these people enough to go out and spend days at Shell Harbor, not to mention the site they were searching the week before under the bridge. After all, LE is from Florida too, and they know alligator behavior too, and they know folks use cinder blocks as anchors with yellow rope that people simply discard at boat ramps too, don't they? tia

btw, for the record, I never thought she was at the Shell Harbor boat ramp, but I did think she was thrown in the St John's river, for various reasons. moo

 

[Whisperer]

IIRC on February 9th at 7:00 pm it was still 57-59 degrees. That is not cold.

Joe had visited through the years weeks at a time and I thought Misty and Tommy lived in their parents home not far from the boat ramp?

IMO

The Croslins lived in Bunnel and Flagler Beach. I don't think they were in Putnam County very long before misty met Ronald. IIRC it was about seven months. Lisa and Hank lived in Satsuma san mateo area first when moving from Flagler/Daytona/Bunnel where Hank Sr. had a Drywall Company.

 

[Concerned Papa]

IIRC on February 9th at 7:00 pm it was still 57-59 degrees. That is not cold.

Joe had visited through the years weeks at a time and I thought Misty and Tommy lived in their parents home not far from the boat ramp?

IMO

Ronald Cummings said the FIRST time he met Joe was on the third day of his visit. Irregardless of how many times Joe may or may not have visited in the past, it was the first time Mr Cummings ever met him. You can hear his own words in this short video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4T_2ysfH_8

Remember, Ronald told Art Harris that HE and Joe spent time fishing, drinking, and talking about life and alligator's feeding habits:

Ronald told me that he and Joe Overstreet, Misty’s Tennessee cousin, used to visit the very spot on the St. John’s river to fish, shoot the breeze, maybe drink a tall, cool one, and talk about life…and the appetite of Alligators. In fact, he said, in an exclusive chat with The Bald Truth months ago, that Joe talked about one of his favorite pastimes–watching alligators go to town on small animals or big ones that fell or got tossed in for their dining pleasure.

Are we supposed to believe that Ronald was doing all of this chit-chatting with his new bud AFTER Joe supposedly stole his pistol on the very first day he ever met him?

As to the "that dock got swamped with alligators" part of Ronald Cummings' story to Cobra on the tapes, the University of Florida AND the US Government (NOAA) say otherwise:

Feeding activity is governed by water temperature, with foraging activity ceasing if the temperature drops below 20 to 23°C (68 to 73°F).

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/cnhc/csp_amis.htm

As of about one hour ago, on May 1, 2010, the water temperature of the St Johns river was 60 degrees F, and STILL too low for alligator activity:

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/ofs/sjofs/fore_temp.shtml

I'm certain that between January 30, 2009 and February 10, 2009, during Joe's visit, the water temperature of the river was considerably lower than that.

There's nothing else I can do to show that Ronald Cummings made up this entire story about Cousin Joe and the alligators. The question to ask is WHY would an innocent father of a missing little girl do that?

 

[Whisperer]

Well, with all this info about alligators not feeding in Feb. why would LE believe these people enough to go out and spend days at Shell Harbor, not to mention the site they were searching the week before under the bridge. After all, LE is from Florida too, and they know alligator behavior too, and they know folks use cinder blocks as anchors with yellow rope that people simply discard at boat ramps too, don't they? tia

btw, for the record, I never thought she was at the Shell Harbor boat ramp, but I did think she was thrown in the St John's river, for various reasons. moo

Do people really drop anchor on a boat ramp? I thought it was a matter of slipping your boat in the water right there. Unless people are able to park their boats at that dock, I see no reason why they need to drop anchor. They simply tie the boat up loading/unloading.

 

[gngr~snap]

Concerned Papa-
The question to ask is WHY would an innocent father of a missing little girl do that?

umm pointing fingers? seriously... the boy from Tennessee? Pretty sure there are no alligators there but cha never know!

also NOT that Ron would care because I believe he had already been sited for hunting violations in the past... IT WAS NOT deer season in FLorida at that time either...

No deer + No alligators = ???

Great post by the way!

 

[Missingmeds]

I really hate to do this but there is another consideration to be made as well.

Gar Fish. I have seen them strip a cow to nothing but bare bone in just a short while and they aren't affected by temperature. They are in most freshwater ways in Florida and they eat about anything that don't eat them first.

 

[gngr~snap]

Whoa! I just watched a youtube video and I cannot even post it!!! OK! I am creeped out big time!
you may be right.

 

[Concerned Papa]

I really hate to do this but there is another consideration to be made as well.

Gar Fish. I have seen them strip a cow to nothing but bare bone in just a short while and they aren't affected by temperature. They are in most freshwater ways in Florida and they eat about anything that don't eat them first.

Yep, just like so many of this outfit's changing and evolving stories, I can almost hear Ronald Cummings from his jail cell.....

"Yea it was them GAR that Joe used to feed.....GAR I tell you.....EVERYBODY knows alligators are dormant and don't feed that time of the year....."

 

[Missingmeds]

Whoa! I just watched a youtube video and I cannot even post it!!! OK! I am creeped out big time!
you may be right.

Okay a youtube video about what?

 

[Missingmeds]

Yep, just like so many of this outfit's changing and evolving stories, I can almost hear Ronald Cummings from his jail cell.....

"Yea it was them GAR that Joe used to feed.....GAR I tell you.....EVERYBODY knows alligators are dormant and don't feed that time of the year....."

I have to agree Papa and it is maddening because we really don't have much actual information so we are basically trying to piece together a puzzle, not only with pieces that don't fit, but some pieces that might be from another puzzle altogether.

 

[gngr~snap]

Okay a youtube video about what?

alligator gar vs goldfish :nerves:

I did not like it!