2010.04.30 All about alligators

[AlmostGone]

I live 3 1/2 hours South of where Haleigh lives and we have our first big gator in our back yard gulch/swamp/pond. About 2 weeks ago a 10 footer passed by but didn't stay and this one is about 6 foot and is eating fish from the fish beds. As previously posted, I too believe it was to cold for a gator to go after a baby in the river but crabs and fish are a sure bet. It is my hope that none of these folks would be so cruel as to throw this baby girl in the river but I grew up in Florida and the rednecks would tie cats to the clotheslines by there back feet just to watch them fight. FYI, I am not a redneck but have heard the stories. I have a cat, dog and 2 fish all in the house who I love like my children. When there is a gator around my dachshund only goes out with me and he is on a leash. Also, only in the front yard. This time of year the gators are ornery.

If I had seen a 6foot gator floating buy id be running in the other direction screaming im sure haha! Thanks for the info, sounds interesting and sadly I could see some guys or kids doing that to animals (feeding to gators)... I just hope haleigh didnt get tossed in that water...

 

[bessie]

ITA! I remember gators around my PawPaw's camp, and they did NOTHING when it was cold, and yeah the 50's doesn't sound very cold, but it is cold to us southerners, and it's even colder for the gators. LOL.
~JMO

My mawmaw and pawpaw lived on the bayou, Maven. I think I posted here once before about the night I was out on my grandfather's boat as a child and learned for the first time that the thousands of little red lights shining from every corner of the darkness were alligator eyes. I'm neither a biologist nor a zoologist, but I've spent much of my life on and near the waterways of south Louisiana where folks cohabitate with gators, snakes, black bears and a zillion other critters.

I really hate to do this but there is another consideration to be made as well.

Gar Fish. I have seen them strip a cow to nothing but bare bone in just a short while and they aren't affected by temperature. They are in most freshwater ways in Florida and they eat about anything that don't eat them first.

lol I've never seen them strip a cow! Doesn't surprise me, though. They strike aggressively at anything that hits the water.

Just a bunch of FWIW's


Also, for the record, I've never personally caught an alligator gar in salt/brackish water, but I've seen the remains from where other fishermen (or fisherladies ) have caught them in the bayou/bays. I would guess if alligators can live in this brackish water, the gar can, too.

I don't know how the St. Johns river compares to Lake Pontchartrain in salinity, but gar fish are plentiful in several areas of Lake Pontchartrain which has a relatively high salinity. They were a regular nuisance while fishing for catfish off the Bucktown bridge in Lake Pontchartrain.

The Sub-delta Marshes of Louisiana consist of approximately 2,940,000 acres (O’Neil, 1949:20). Much of this is interlaced with numerous ponds, bayous, and canals. This is primarily a brackish water habitat. Gars are very numerous and fishermen often complain that they are eating all the game fish and consequently are ruining the fishing.

Salinities ranged from 0.16 percent to 0.51 percent salt. It is probable that, in the course of the average year, the salinity of the water in the area ranges from almost zero to two percent salt, with the maximum exceeded for short periods during equatorial storm tides.

http://saveourwetlands.org/garfish.htm

The range of the alligator gar extends from the Florida Panhandle, through the Gulf Coastal Plain and the Mississippi River Basin extending north to the lower portions of the Ohio and the Missouri River, and ranges southwest through Texas down to Veracruz, Mexico. There is a population in Mississippi Sound and the brackish water of the Gulf Coast and Mobile-Tensaw Delta that seldom stray far inland.

The alligator gar inhabits large, slow moving rivers, reservoirs, oxbow lakes, bayous and bays, in fresh and brackish water. The alligator gar is the most tolerant gar species of high salinity and occasionally strays into salt water.

The alligator gars' diet consists primarily of fish. However, brackish water populations of alligator gar are known to feed heavily on blue crabs in addition to fish such as the hardhead catfish. This gar is also known to prey on waterfowl and other birds, small mammals, turtles, and carrion. Alligator gars have been reported to attack duck decoys and eat injured waterfowl shot by hunters. http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/gallery/Descript/AlligatorGar/AlligatorGar.html

I wouldn't rule out gar fish.

And then there are crabs.

The lake also hosts a wide variety of wildlife ranging from migratory water birds and alligators to a number of normally marine animals. Local springs in Lake George (and throughout the St Johns River) impart enough salt to the system to make the habitat suitable to resident and migratory marine species like Atlantic stingray, various species of mullet, striped bass and blue crabs. There is a large enough blue crab population to support a local fishery, making it one of the only fresh water blue crab fisheries in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_George_(Florida)

Around the St. John's River in Florida, spawning occurs from February to October, with peak spawning occurring from March through September.
http://www.bluecrab.info/spawning.html

Not to mention sharks and rays:
The St. Johns lays claim to the only elasmobranch in North America that lives permanently in fresh water.

Overall, elasmobranchs don't venture into freshwater. Some species do occasionally find their way up into the river, bull and tiger sharks among them, but they're casual visitors -- snowbirds -- not residents. However, the St. Johns lays claim to the only elasmobranch in North America that lives permanently in fresh water. It's an Atlantic stingray (Dasyatis sabina) -- the very same long-winged fish swimming along the coasts -- that has completely adapted to a river environment: It's born here; it reproduces here, giving live birth to several "pups" at a time; and it dies here.

http://www.theriverreturns.org/explore/journey/fullstory.php?sid=9

Ron's story of alligators swamping the dock is a mile high heap of carp, IMO. On the other hand, considering the locale, I still maintain that the most natural and logical place to dispose of a body is the water.

 

[Missingmeds]

Oh yea they will strip a cow. Something to see when it happened and that is one thing that has stuck with me for years.

I really just don't see anyone placing that child in the river like that.

 

[Concerned Papa]

~Respectfully Snipped~

And then there are crabs.

The lake also hosts a wide variety of wildlife ranging from migratory water birds and alligators to a number of normally marine animals. Local springs in Lake George (and throughout the St Johns River) impart enough salt to the system to make the habitat suitable to resident and migratory marine species like Atlantic stingray, various species of mullet, striped bass and blue crabs. There is a large enough blue crab population to support a local fishery, making it one of the only fresh water blue crab fisheries in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_George_%28Florida%29

Around the St. John's River in Florida, spawning occurs from February to October, with peak spawning occurring from March through September.
http://www.bluecrab.info/spawning.html

Ron's story of alligators swamping the dock is a mile high heap of carp, IMO. On the other hand, considering the locale, I still maintain that the most natural and logical place to dispose of a body is the water.

There is certainly the possibility of crabs being a gruesome part of the disposal of Haleigh's body, particularly in light of this picture by Ger at the Shell Harbor docks of 2 discarded crab traps:

Your ending thought of "Ron's story of alligators swamping the dock being a mile high heap of s**t" has been definitively established by the information compiled by our members in this thread. Ronald Cummings fabricated this entire alligator story to bolster the "Cousin Joe done it" story being spread by him and Misty from the beginning.

As gruesome as the thought of crabs, gars, or even sharks devouring this little girl's body may be, the thought of why her father would spread this lie is many, many times more so.

 

[Lil'E]

As gruesome as the thought of crabs, gars, or even sharks devouring this little girl's body may be, the thought of why her father would spread this lie is many, many times more so.

Exactly! Unless this myth was perpetuated to divert attention away from the true spot where Haliegh's body is. I personally think she would have been buried close to home or a relatives home who would be there long term (a home owner as opposed to a renter) so they could always visit that spot as a memorial. KWIM? I just don't see her as being dumped in the St. Johns at all, perhaps the rope and block were there from one of that crew drowning an animal and was offered as proof as a diversion to take the focus of the search from the most logical place that the body may be. But,...then again, these folks are not known for their logic.:waitasec:

 

[GRANNYL]

Crabs more likely than Gators.

Today I talked with someone who was involved with the Shell Harbor search and has many years experience. I asked about gators and was told YES gators would eat in Feb. They slow down but do not hibernate like a bear. This person bought up the fact that it did not have to be a gator. They would lean more towards crabs doing the most damage to a body then on to Turtles second then Gar fish (yes the St.Johns is full of large ones), regular fish, snakes and any marine life. Said they all eat meat. They would pick away very quickly at remains. Sorry hate to be so grafic.

 

[akashana]

Weighing in on the gator situation . . .

I had a friend who used to live on a houseboat in the brackish waters off of Pass Manchac in Louisiana. Alligators abounded in those waters, as evidenced by the distinctive claw marks on the wooden dock and the punctured inner tubers they would have to keep replacing so the houseboat wouldn't bang into the dock when careless boaters sped past, making wakes. They had a large dog that they could never let run outside during the warm spring and summer months due to the alligator activity. But in the cold winter months, they had no fear of letting the dog out for a run, even at night, because alligators and even snakes were too sluggish to pursue any prey at that time. She spent a couple years on the boat and the dog was fine. But the summer months were a different story entirely!

 

[Cher352]

You have to remember this is FL too. Gators may slow down but don't just lay in hibernation all winter especially around boat docks where people clean fish and do fishing. We live on the water and have lost count of the times the kids have snagged a gator while trying to fish right out of our back yard. We blame a neighbor who is always throwing out fish food to feed the fish (he says) that is attracting them.

Gators are everywhere here, we have found them in the yard, in the driveway and our neighbor even had one get into his pool and we are not nearly infested with them as the St Johns is. But I have to agree about crabs too if the body is weighed down to the bottom. The same thing that attracts gators to dock docks and launches are the same thing that attracts crabs.

 

[Cher352]

Just an example here is a gator attack that happen January 2009.

http://www.wpbf.com/news/18595577/detail.html

 

[Missingmeds]

Crabs more likely than Gators.

Today I talked with someone who was involved with the Shell Harbor search and has many years experience. I asked about gators and was told YES gators would eat in Feb. They slow down but do not hibernate like a bear. This person bought up the fact that it did not have to be a gator. They would lean more towards crabs doing the most damage to a body then on to Turtles second then Gar fish (yes the St.Johns is full of large ones), regular fish, snakes and any marine life. Said they all eat meat. They would pick away very quickly at remains. Sorry hate to be so graphic.

Thanks so much for this post GrannyL. I agree with what this person told you, but I still think that given what we know about the temperature at the time that Haleigh went missing and so forth, I find it unlikely that gators were doing much eating.

Crabs, turtles, and gar fish, yes they would do the job. But more importantly to me is that Ron would know this and Joe wouldn't have a clue about what was going on with the wildlife in the area.

 

[Concerned Papa]

You have to remember this is FL too. Gators may slow down but don't just lay in hibernation all winter especially around boat docks where people clean fish and do fishing. We live on the water and have lost count of the times the kids have snagged a gator while trying to fish right out of our back yard. We blame a neighbor who is always throwing out fish food to feed the fish (he says) that is attracting them.

Gators are everywhere here, we have found them in the yard, in the driveway and our neighbor even had one get into his pool and we are not nearly infested with them as the St Johns is. But I have to agree about crabs too if the body is weighed down to the bottom. The same thing that attracts gators to dock docks and launches are the same thing that attracts crabs.

Just an example here is a gator attack that happen January 2009.

http://www.wpbf.com/news/18595577/detail.html

Hello Cher, I live in Florida myself although, thankfully, not adjacent to any alligators that I'm aware of, lol. It's my understanding from a couple of fairly reliable sources, water temperature seems to be the trigger that governs the periods of dormancy.

From the Smithsonian's Zoological Park:

One interesting aspect of alligator biology is that they undergo periods of dormancy when the weather is cold.

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/ReptilesAmphibians/Facts/FactSheets/Americanalligator.cfm

and The University of Florida:

Feeding activity is governed by water temperature, with foraging activity ceasing if the temperature drops below 20 to 23°C (68 to 73°F).

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/cnhc/csp_amis.htm

I noticed the referenced article is dated January 29, 2009 and is in Delray Beach, FL, 265 miles to the south of the Shell Harbor boat ramp on the St Johns river.

As is the norm, the weather in Delray Beach on 1/29/2009 was considerably warmer than in Putnam County in early February, 2009. From www.wunderground.com:

The only point I've tried to make in this thread is that with the temperatures in early February being well below the trigger point of dormancy for alligators (68 to 73°F), Ronald Cummings story saying "that dock got swamped with alligators" appears to be untrue along with his hanging with Cousin Joe to feed them.

 

[poco]

I'm in Florida and live on a lake - this is kinda off topic - but this picture was taken 27 feet from my back door.

 

[bessie]

It was nice of them to pose for you, Poco. Do you recall which month that photo was taken?

Brumation is the term for the physiological process reptiles undergo in winter.

Brumation

Brumation is an example of dormancy in reptiles that is similar to hibernation.[2][3] It differs from hibernation in the metabolic processes involved.[4]
Reptiles generally begin brumation in late fall (more specific times depend on the species). They will often wake up to drink water and return to "sleep". Captive reptiles should not be offered food during this time, as the temperature is too low for them to digest their meal. They can go months without food. Reptiles may want to eat more than usual before the brumation time, but will eat less or refuse food as the temperature drops. However, they do need to drink water. The brumation period is anywhere from 1-8 months depending on the air temperature and the size, age, and health of the reptile. During the first year of life, many small reptiles do not fully brumate, but rather slow down and eat less often. Brumation should not be confused with hibernation; when mammals hibernate they are actually asleep, when reptiles brumate they are less active, their metabolism slows down so they just don't need to eat as often. Reptiles can often go through the whole winter without eating. Brumation is triggered by cold weather/lack of heat, and the decrease in the amount of hours of daylight in the winter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormancy

 

[poco]

It was taken a few days ago............

 

[Reality Orlando]

This is from 1976, but gives some good info. There's also a chart that shows the months of documented attacks. None took place in Florida winter months:

Alligator attacks on humans in Florida by Tommy C. Hines:

http://research.myfwc.com/engine/download_redirection_process.asp?file=76hines_3022.pdf&objid=54992&dltype=publication

 

[GRANNYL]

Thanks so much for this post GrannyL. I agree with what this person told you, but I still think that given what we know about the temperature at the time that Haleigh went missing and so forth, I find it unlikely that gators were doing much eating.

Crabs, turtles, and gar fish, yes they would do the job. But more importantly to me is that Ron would know this and Joe wouldn't have a clue about what was going on with the wildlife in the area.

The person I talked to did not rule out gators but really felt other marine life starting with crabs etc. were more likely if she was put in the water that time of the year. They went on to explain what a minus six foot gator vs. one longer than six feet would do at that time of year. I was totally lost so won't try to explain that part of the conversation! LOL!

From my conversation with this person I don't think a gator was involved. I trust their judgement based on their first hand knowledge with many years experience

 

[summermood32]

When I had cable and lived in Tampa, Florida off of Hillsborough Ave. They would have messages warnings like they do for a tornadoes in other states warning of alligators in the ponds around the apartments not to feed them or go around them. I was 18 at the time and I was freaking out when I would go to the pool at night. Just thought I would share!