2010.04.30 All about alligators

[Concerned Papa]

I have to agree Papa and it is maddening because we really don't have much actual information so we are basically trying to piece together a puzzle, not only with pieces that don't fit, but some pieces that might be from another puzzle altogether.

LOL, your wording of this comment is particularly ironic. Have you seen the new video I posted last night? It's called "Pieces Of The Puzzle".

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Baznme]

IIRC on February 9th at 7:00 pm it was still 57-59 degrees. That is not cold.

Joe had visited through the years weeks at a time and I thought Misty and Tommy lived in their parents home not far from the boat ramp?

IMO

According to this it was 37 degrees that night. 56 during the day.

http://french.wunderground.com/hist...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

 

[Missingmeds]

LOL, your wording of this comment is particularly ironic. Have you seen the new video I posted last night? It's called "Pieces Of The Puzzle".

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Not yet. I will go back when I get back, real life beckons this morning, and watch.

That is how I feel about this case. LE is being a little too closed lipped about what they have and don't have in my opinion. They have repeatedly asked the public for information but don't want to give any in return.

The fact that those divers spent all that time in the water, and basically came up empty handed is worrisome to me. Gators, gar fish, snakes of various sorts, that is risking life and limb for the divers.

 

[Baznme]

LOL, your wording of this comment is particularly ironic. Have you seen the new video I posted last night? It's called "Pieces Of The Puzzle".

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Papa, thank you for the video. It gave me chills and then brought a tear to the eye. It is exactly how I feel and all the flags are there. I have faith that PCSO see the same flags and will act accordingly.........SOON.

 

[Concerned Papa]

I really hate to do this but there is another consideration to be made as well.

Gar Fish. I have seen them strip a cow to nothing but bare bone in just a short while and they aren't affected by temperature. They are in most freshwater ways in Florida and they eat about anything that don't eat them first.

MM, it's been years since I've seen a Gar, but I've done a little checking this morning, and it seems that we can probably scratch these ugly predators off the list.

According to the State of Florida Wildlife Commission:

Alligator Gar
(Atractosteus spatula)

Range - Found in the Escambia, Yellow and Choctawhatchee rivers in northwest Florida. They have also been found in the Econfina/Bear Creek area of Bay County.

Habitat - They inhabit sluggish pools and backwaters of large rivers, bayous and lakes. They rarely are found in brackish or salt water.

http://myfwc.com/WILDLIFEHABITATs/Freshwaterfish_AlligatorGar.htm

The St Johns is a brackish (fresh and salt mix) water system:

The St. Johns is referred to as a brackish system because it is not entirely made of freshwater like most rivers. It receives salt from two sources. One source is from ancient seawater pockets in the Floridian Aquifer, which releases salt water through various springs (Salt Springs, etc). The second is from the Atlantic Ocean that carries seawater in as far as Lake George during normal conditions, and even to Lake Monroe or further during drought conditions. The amount of freshwater moving northward out of the marshes (less during drought) determines the amount of seawater that can push in southward from the Atlantic Ocean, thus defining the brackish water zone.

http://www.mystjohnsriver.com/river_ecology.php

 

[Pensfan]

No, I really do not believe it would at all, an alligator's behavior ultimately relies on the temperature like all reptiles.

ITA. Alligators, like all cold blooded creatures, do not eat in when the temperature drops because their brain responds to decreasing sunlight and heat. They become dormant and their metabolism slows dramatically. This behavior is not optional. Even if abundant food is available, they don’t have hunger and won’t eat. (I have an outdoor goldfish pond and the fish completely refuse to eat when the temp drops below 55 F. They swim around very sluggishly, but they won't eat.)

 

[Missingmeds]

There is more than one type of gar fish in Florida.

Florida Gar
(Lepisosteus platyrhincus)

Common Names - gar, garfish, spotted gar

State Record - 7.00 pounds, caught in Ocklawaha River, Putnam County, in 1988.

This is more of the type that I was thinking about.

Now I am going to find your video.

 

[debs]

Any forethought in this case to planning where to dispose of Haleigh's body has GOT to be given to someone with better thinking processes than the Croslins. For God's sake, Tommy hid stolen items IN HIS HOUSE IN PLAIN SIGHT. He stole a gun AND RETURNED IT. He had illegal drugs ON THE FRONT SEAT OF HIS CAR. He's not a pre-thinker, a planner.

"He spent some time with us, but it was too hard and he said 'Mama, I just need to go spend some time with Haleigh." (paraphrase...TN, the holidays talking about how Ron spent his afternoon.)

 

[Pensfan]

Any forethought in this case to planning where to dispose of Haleigh's body has GOT to be given to someone with better thinking processes than the Croslins. For God's sake, Tommy hid stolen items IN HIS HOUSE IN PLAIN SIGHT. He stole a gun AND RETURNED IT. He had illegal drugs ON THE FRONT SEAT OF HIS CAR. He's not a pre-thinker, a planner.

"He spent some time with us, but it was too hard and he said 'Mama, I just need to go spend some time with Haleigh." (paraphrase...TN, the holidays talking about how Ron spent his afternoon.)

I couldn't push the thanks button 50 times, so I'm typing ITA, Where is Haleigh?

 

[babycat]

Just a bunch of FWIW's

I think February would be too cold for alligators to be moving about. My dad drives a tugboat, and has for about 30 years. He sees them every day (like coworkers, he says) in the warm months, both during the day, sunning, and at night when he shines his spotlight and it hits their eyes. He told me that he never sees them moving during the winter months, that he has very rarely seen them sunning on the warmest winter days, but it's too cold for them to eat or really move. He said that they just now (april, may) starting to come out and get active. He is in Southern Alabama.

I live on the Mississippi Gulf Coast less than a mile from the bay. I like to walk over to the bay where I fish, and watch the alligators. It is possible that alligators could "swamp" an area, I would think, especially if it was a dock where people threw scraps/fish guts, or just liked to feed the gators. When I was little and would go with my dad to his work, the alligators would pop up everywhere because the deckhands threw scraps to them daily (which I strongly oppose! Never feed alligators, y'all!) There were lots of them... Especially if it was nearing dusk, because they like to get active/feed then.

Also, for the record, I've never personally caught an alligator gar in salt/brackish water, but I've seen the remains from where other fishermen (or fisherladies ) have caught them in the bayou/bays. I would guess if alligators can live in this brackish water, the gar can, too.


Also, as another person said, alligators can't feed in winter because of belly rot.


Obviously, this is all just FWIW/my experience. I've always liked and had a healthy fear/respect of alligators, growing up on the coast. They were fascinating to me when I was little! They're a dime a dozen down here, it seems. Off topic, but a strange thing my dad told me about alligators- the temperature of their nest determines the sex of their offspring. Weird

ETA: I edited this post because apparently I misunderstood an earlier post. sorry!

 

[Lil'E]

I am so glad someone brought up the subject of alligator feeding habits, this tale of the child being thrown in the river has always seemed hinky to me. I remember when LP had the divers in the Little Econ River in the CA search and there was discussion on video someplace where LP stays at a great distance, but when asked why the divers felt it was safe it was explained that gators cannot open their mouths to attack or feed underwater because they would drown. If the child were in there weighted down by cinderblocks it blows the therory of being eaten by gators, IMHO.

 

[rossva]

I live about 45 miles due east of Orlando, so I am a little further south, but I see alligators in and out of the water, along the roadside, in back yards, etc, from 3' to 9' long, year round.

And while it may not be normal for an alligator to eat when the temperature drops, I think it's more of a matter they will not actively search for food, but if a tasty morsel drifts right in front of them, they will bite.

Never feed gators or swim or wade in waters where large alligators are known or likely to occur, especially at dusk or night (when they naturally feed). It is illegal to feed alligators. When humans feed alligators, it causes the alligators to lose their natural fear of humans and to associate humans with food. It doesn't matter if people feed them human-food like marshmallows or throw them fish guts when cleaning fish, it's all bad. It changes the alligator's behavior.

Normally, alligators avoid humans, but alligators that have been fed by humans will move toward humans and can become aggressive.

I wonder when/if they prove poor Haleigh was put in the river, the killer will be charged with feeeding alligators as an additional charge?

 

[babycat]

I live about 45 miles due east of Orlando, so I am a little further south, but I see alligators in and out of the water, along the roadside, in back yards, etc, from 3' to 9' long, year round.

And while it may not be normal for an alligator to eat when the temperature drops, I think it's more of a matter they will not actively search for food, but if a tasty morsel drifts right in front of them, they will bite.

Never feed gators or swim or wade in waters where large alligators are known or likely to occur, especially at dusk or night (when they naturally feed). It is illegal to feed alligators. When humans feed alligators, it causes the alligators to lose their natural fear of humans and to associate humans with food. It doesn't matter if people feed them human-food like marshmallows or throw them fish guts when cleaning fish, it's all bad. It changes the alligator's behavior.

Normally, alligators avoid humans, but alligators that have been fed by humans will move toward humans and can become aggressive.

I wonder when/if they prove poor Haleigh was put in the river, the killer will be charged with feeeding alligators as an additional charge?

(BBM)
yes, but then you still have the issue of alligators not feeding because of lack of enzymes (which are activated by the sun, if I recall) and not being able to maintain a consistent body temperature to digest the food- which would cause belly rot and death. I'm certainly no expert, but I would think that a gator would instinctively not feed because of this- as part of their nature. Alligators can go a year or two without eating, so I'm not convinced they would even feed opportunistically during winter. I wonder if the instinct to survive and not get belly rot would be greater than the instinct to eat since they can go without food at great lengths.

But that's only my opinion, obviously

 

[Quiche]

Alligators, no. Gar fish, no. What other kind of aquatic life might have been employed? Crab?

Thank you all for the alligator info/stories-- I am so grateful to have zero experience with them!

 

[babycat]

Alligators, no. Gar fish, no. What other kind of aquatic life might have been employed? Crab?

Thank you all for the alligator info/stories-- I am so grateful to have zero experience with them!

who knows, bull sharks have been known to get up in rivers and fresh/brackish water, and they are pretty aggressive and eat most anything. Maybe they will be the next culprit :innocent:

 

[TobyWong*]

FWIW from my experience living in FL, alligators will congregate in areas where humans feed them. There are signs everywhere and fish and wildlife seemed to really enforce the no feeding rule. But young adults (heck even older adults)don't always follow the rules and think it's pretty cool to hang out on the docks, getting drunk, tempting fate by throwing food to the gators. During the winter the gators would be out, you could see them but they were slow and were not hungry. Alligators are smart and they like their food alive. No way do I believe they would "go after" something deceased and wrapped in a blanket that was also trussed up with rope. They have so many easier options for food.imo. Freaks me out just thinking about hanging out in the dark in FL. Snakes, mountain lions, spiders the size of a hand, the gators were the least of my concerns. I still dream about moving back to that beautiful water though.

 

[Missingmeds]

who knows, bull sharks have been known to get up in rivers and fresh/brackish water, and they are pretty aggressive and eat most anything. Maybe they will be the next culprit :innocent:

So very true about the bull sharks and there are other creatures both in the water and out that will eat carrion.

I just don't see someone not burying this child. Someone knows exactly where she is or was.

 

[Emeralgem]

So very true about the bull sharks and there are other creatures both in the water and out that will eat carrion.

I just don't see someone not burying this child. Someone knows exactly where she is or was.

Since Ron C and Misty have both attempted to make everyone believe Haleigh was put in the river and aligators got her, I call BS..Seriously though when you think about it, how sick is that..How could a parent, or anyone calmly state my child is in that river.....We are dealing with a very disturbed person when they can lay claim to such a horrific scenario...
IMHO...The Cummings know where she is.. She has either been buried or cremated... I go with the latter because they could never risk her remains ever being found.. Reason being, the truth as to how she died would be revealed..JMO

 

[Sdavidson11]

I live 3 1/2 hours South of where Haleigh lives and we have our first big gator in our back yard gulch/swamp/pond. About 2 weeks ago a 10 footer passed by but didn't stay and this one is about 6 foot and is eating fish from the fish beds. As previously posted, I too believe it was to cold for a gator to go after a baby in the river but crabs and fish are a sure bet. It is my hope that none of these folks would be so cruel as to throw this baby girl in the river but I grew up in Florida and the rednecks would tie cats to the clotheslines by there back feet just to watch them fight. FYI, I am not a redneck but have heard the stories. I have a cat, dog and 2 fish all in the house who I love like my children. When there is a gator around my dachshund only goes out with me and he is on a leash. Also, only in the front yard. This time of year the gators are ornery.

 

[babycat]

I live 3 1/2 hours South of where Haleigh lives and we have our first big gator in our back yard gulch/swamp/pond. About 2 weeks ago a 10 footer passed by but didn't stay and this one is about 6 foot and is eating fish from the fish beds. As previously posted, I too believe it was to cold for a gator to go after a baby in the river but crabs and fish are a sure bet. It is my hope that none of these folks would be so cruel as to throw this baby girl in the river but I grew up in Florida and the rednecks would tie cats to the clotheslines by there back feet just to watch them fight. FYI, I am not a redneck but have heard the stories. I have a cat, dog and 2 fish all in the house who I love like my children. When there is a gator around my dachshund only goes out with me and he is on a leash. Also, only in the front yard. This time of year the gators are ornery.

Yeah, and it's mating season for them, no? may-june? I'm sure they get aggressive and territorial. Eep!