2010.07.12 - How Much Did Caylee Say?

[Oakley]

So precious! As someone who is anxiously awaiting the birth of my first grandchild, all I can say is "KC, how could you?" :furious:

Oh Chefmom, you are in for the treat of your life. You just can't imagine how incredibly sweet they are until they finally arrive, and you get to see and hold them for the first time. Congratulations and all the best to you!

 

[Cat13067]

One of my favourite examples of how a 3-year-old (or near 3-year-old) mind works and communication abilities.

Although this is a cute example, it clearly shows how toddlers can express complex and abstract ideas in relation to a threat or fear.


Sorry, trying to figure out how to embed YouTube so if it doesn't work, please follow this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eectvHXcKOU

I have seen that video, and even though I don't approve of the curse words I have to admit that little girl is adorable.

 

[Cat13067]

I think Cat Lady is onto something too. I'm just not convinced she put the duct tape on after Caylee died, I think she put it on before, so that it not only was a cause of death but also a show of KC's anger- "so you wanna talk huh? well little girl that's the last time you'll tell on me!"--that kind of thing.

Also I remember that my son at that age took everything literal. You could not say "oh, that gave me butterflies in my stomach" because he literally thought that you had butterflies in your stomach.....he asked me how they got in there...lol.

IMO this idea that Caylee had begun to tell on KC, I think this could be a big part of the motive, and C & G were not above using it. Poor Caylee.

JMHO

If I remember there was a cartoon character with duct tape over the mouth, and a heart sticker put on top of the tape. My grandaughter watches cartoon in the car all the time. What if she was watching the cartoon, and she told CA Mommy puts tape and a heart on my mouth too.

 

[Cat13067]

I think THIS is the heart of the entire case! I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to think that at almost three-years-old Caylee was able to relate things that had happened to her grandmother.

I'm sure Cindy questioned Caylee, and as children often do, Caylee may have said something spontaneously that triggered questioning. Caylee could have said something along the line of, "mommy gave me something that made me sleepy" or something that indicated abuse.

For the past two years, Cindy has been harping on "Casey is a wonderful mother - the mother of the year - and she would never harm Caylee." I've always felt that this was a direct opposite of what Cindy really knew and thought.

I don't doubt for a moment that the fight on June 15, 2008 was about something Casey had done and that Cindy knew about it because Caylee told her or confirmed her suspicions. I can see Cindy throwing that in Casey's face..........."Caylee told me!"

At that point, Casey knew that Caylee was (innocently) exposing her carefully laid lies. I think the duct tape on Caylee's mouth tells the story.

I think the fight that took place between Cindy and Casey was the catalyst for Caylee's murder. Cindy knows this, and it's because of the guilt she carries that she won't face reality.

Yes and the reason CA, and Caylee got out of the pool when KC got home was CA was going to rip into KC. I am not buying the chilly water b.s.

 

[Cat13067]

If you think about it KC see's CA on Father's Day when she either drops Caylee off to CA or she goes over to Tony's when they leave for the nursing home. So, something had to happen between the time CA took Caylee to the nursing home and when she saw KC later that evening.

 

[Purple Iris]

I thought someone said earlier that Caylee would have had a captive audience with Cindy?
Sorry, I probably have read right over it ~ but, I wanted to comment on that; and agree 100%.

In EVERY SINGLE video that we have seen that was done by Casey, there is absolutly no interaction at all.
No "say this, do this or that", nothing, period.

When Casey and Caylee were together, I imagine that she was totally ignored, told to shut up, go to her bedroom, sit down, get out of my way, just a minute and so forth ~
Casey wouldn't have had any idea just exactly what Caylee was capable of telling is she was constantly being told to shut up, or, being ignored.
It went right over Casey's head until it was to late.

So, yes, if Caylee was with George or Cindy, she would have probably been chatting up a storm, non stop.

And, then, I have visions of some of the last photos of Caylee that we have been allowed to see, and there is something WRONG ~
The dark circles under her eyes, the sadnes in them, leary, scared looks at Casey, and a general distance being held by Caylee towards Casey, IMO, in most of those that I have seen.

 

[kaRN]

I thought she read the book pretty well? It is hard to hear with all the background noise but I got the gist. According to Caylee, the book was about a kitty that wanted a cookie the poppa baked but momma/poppa said she needed to eat her supper first. She said she was not hungry and only ate two bites so they told her to eat some more but she insisted she was done, so no cookie?

Ok. I didn't catch any of that so I'll have to take your word. The only phrase I understood clearly, was when she asked Poppa if he was tired.
I do think if Caylee was telling stories, someone would have voiced that to LE however. Great Gma Plesea maybe, Lee or Mallory but to date no reports of that. Actually little about Caylee at all really.
And as ignorant as I may feel ICA is, I don't think she's stupid enough to intentionally dress Caylee in the 'Trouble comes in small packages" T shirt to dump her or use duct tape to symbolically shut her up. I think she killed her in the shirt she was wearing using the tape to suffocate her because she was sick of being responsible for the little snot nose and wanted to shake her booty at Fusion that night.
But I may be wrong. Don't think I'm wrong that we'd have read some of the stories Caylee told Cindy by now if she had though. I think a normal grieving Grandmother would grasp at any and all straws including telling LE what alarming things the baby said the day before she last saw her.

 

[Purple Iris]

I just thought of something else that stands out in my mind ~

After Casey was arrested and charged Cindy did an exclusive interview with I think, Holly Bristol of FOX. It had to have been taped prior to the Grand Jury, given how she reacted the day of the arrest by stopping in the middle of the road, and running back to the FOX van and yelling at Holly, "There'll be NO MORE EXCLUSIVES FOR YOU".

Anyway = I wish I could find that interview, it is about an hour long ~ Taped outside, perhaps in a park setting. Cindy was sitting on a wooden park bench that looked like it was under a gazebo.

In it, towards the end, Cindy tells how she misses little Caylee taking her little hands, and grabbing Cindy's cheeks and squeezing them, and saying to her, "It'll be aw-right Cinny, or CinCin".
At any rate, Caylee's grandparents listened to her, I believe encouraged her to talk and interact with them.
And, it makes me wonder, and actually sometimes sick to my stomach at what that little baby saw and heard, both in that house, and in the places that she was taken.

Why, why would a 2yr old feel the need to tell her Grandma that it was going to be okay?

It surely wasn't...

 

[butterfly1978]

I beleive as well that Caylee told Cindy something on the car ride home, and it could have been anything or a combination of a bunch of things such as:
Cindy knew the money was stolen, she could have realised then that Casey was not working and asked Caylee, where do you and mama go when I'm at work? and Caylee said something like we go to Ricardo's house and sleep or we go to Tony's house and mommy dances and she gives me medicine so I dont bother her. Or we go to Tony's and mommy and Tony go to bed in Tony's room and so-in-so watches me and this set Cindy off, and Cindy confronted Casey, and they had a fight, Casey duct tapes Caylee's mouth as punishment for telling and Caylee sufficates. Casey panics

 

[Dutchie Treat]

What a great thread by the way!

After reading all of the posts, I have to inject another angle to this great topic. We are discussing Caylee "tattling" on KC which is very interesting and I'm surprised we didn't have a thread on this earlier

But, conversely, if Caylee were talking with the frequency and volume as we are discussing here, she would have (could have) told CA about "Zanny" IF ZANNY HAD EXISTED. The fact that she NEVER mentioned Zanny, Zanny's dog, Zanny's sisters, Jeff, Juliette, any of the other players in this case who have been proven to have been fabricated, must have caused alarm bells to ring for CA, GA and LA.

Why, then, did they wait so long to alert any type of authority or to force a confrontation with KC and/or Zanny? I just can't believe even after following this case for so long that a mother (grandmother) who gave anything at all about the well-being of her daughter (granddaughter) would be in such a state of denial for so long.

What were (ARE) they hiding c.q. whom are they protecting??????

:furious:

 

[Jomo]

I thought someone said earlier that Caylee would have had a captive audience with Cindy?
Sorry, I probably have read right over it ~ but, I wanted to comment on that; and agree 100%.

In EVERY SINGLE video that we have seen that was done by Casey, there is absolutly no interaction at all.
No "say this, do this or that", nothing, period.

When Casey and Caylee were together, I imagine that she was totally ignored, told to shut up, go to her bedroom, sit down, get out of my way, just a minute and so forth ~
Casey wouldn't have had any idea just exactly what Caylee was capable of telling is she was constantly being told to shut up, or, being ignored.
It went right over Casey's head until it was to late.

So, yes, if Caylee was with George or Cindy, she would have probably been chatting up a storm, non stop.

And, then, I have visions of some of the last photos of Caylee that we have been allowed to see, and there is something WRONG ~
The dark circles under her eyes, the sadnes in them, leary, scared looks at Casey, and a general distance being held by Caylee towards Casey, IMO, in most of those that I have seen.

I agree that the last few photos show that physically something was not quite right with Caylee.

In a WS post about 5 or 6 months ago (I'll try to find it), someone had mentioned that there was comment in the medical examiner's report of Caylee's skull that there was an abnormal flattened back of the skull which is really only seen in children who are bed ridden. This is interesting grounds to suspect that KC had been drugging the baby and she had been spending large amounts of time sleeping on her back. There was even discussion of hair loss and the distant look.

If anyone recalls that medical or report, could you please link it? There is no doubt that all of this would affect Caylee's speech. However, CA was used to Caylee chatting about "Zanny's" dog and other things...She would have noticed the change in speech patterns and behaviours, hair loss and other symptoms.

 

[mommy2]

I'm just a lurker, but I had to come out of hiding to say you guys nailed it with this thread! Excellent sleuths, as usual As the parent of a 6 year old daughter and a son who's turning 3 next month, I can certainly attest to a child recapping the days or even weeks events if asked. Kids, especially toddlers, are so vibrant and innocently willing to answer questions, especially their Grandma's questions.

JA & LDB *hopefully have this laid out. (I know they do, probably closing argument, with the sticker? Come on, we know how fabulous JA & LDB are at doing their thing) Plus with HHJBP? It's like a cherry on top!:sundae:

PS- The heart sticker was always disturbing to me, but it never made as much sense to me as it does now after reading this thread. SO sad.

:cow:

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

I'm thinking this fight which turned physical (which CA adamantly denies) was the catalyst for Caylee's demise...

In my mind, I can see ICA leaving that home in a rage, dragging Caylee behind. I can visualize Caylee crying for CiCi, wanting her grandmother which only angered ICA more...hence the duct tape over Caylee's airways, with the heart as a good bye, jab in the heart to CA along with the TShirt as a final remark to CA...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3xJi0Lu_fc[/ame]



7:38 mark she looses her temper....this is what I feel, believe is what Caylee went through, felt in her last moments alive. ICA flew into a rage, poor, precious Caylee took the brunt of the frustration ICA felt/harbored for her mother, CA...which is why she sits where she does, accused of the murder of Caylee..


Justice for Caylee

 

[Marshmallow]

Based on the video tape of Caylee reading her book, I'd say she didn't say much. IMO, Caylee was not speaking in paragraphs as suggested by her Grandmother.
I have never seen an almost 3yo child regress to the vocabulary of a 1yo, while pretending to read to their doll, themself or someone else. This is the toddlers chance to shine and they always do, using their words to the fullest.
At least every child I've read with has and I bet most of you have similar experiences.

KC may have thought that Caylee was able to divulge her secrets because KC didn't have a clue what Caylee was or wasn't capable of and didn't really care IMO. Not one of the interviews of any of her friends or family reported a KC that couldn't stop talking about her daughter. Calling on the experience of all first time Mommies out there..... What is your favourite topic of discussion? Your obsession even?? Bet I know ' cause I was one of you once (Still am!! drives my friends crazy!!)

my sons are 21 and 25 and they're still one of my top three topics.

I'm pretty sure that the drive home with Caylee was enlightening for Cindy. She does n't seem the type to silently stew and I think she and Casey liked to have info to fling at each other in a fight.

I tend to lean toward a big ole war of words between Cindy and Casey that ended with Casey slamming out the door shouting that they'll never see her and Caylee again. I figure it started with the stolen funds and whatever Caylee passed on to grandma and then was fueled by Cindy throwing everything at her (no job, ungrateful, liar, thief, hussy, bad momma) while George was busy being George and standing idley by wringing his hands and letting them duke it out until he had to pull Cindy off Casey and that allowed Casey to hit the road dragging poor Caylee behind her, poor tired Caylee who must've been scared and crying.
At some point, in the car, Caylee being an overtired child either started whining or started crying wanting Cindy and it lit the fuse in Casey who we know blames everyone but herself. She was already simmering in anger and may have just plain lost it and either willfully killed Caylee or struck out at her causing an injury that untreated caused death. The taping of her mouth, in my opinion, occured with a "now you'll shut up won't you...see what you did/made me do you little snot" type comment.

 

[Paintr]

Cindy and Caylee were alone in the car for that drive. If Cindy had spent time that day discussing KC's theft with her mother and begging her mother to let it slide, she was probably unhappy with KC. Cindy would feel fully justified in asking Caylee probing questions about Caylee's time with KC away from the Anthony home. Knowing how children babble about anything and everything, I am sure that Cindy got an earful.

I will never believe that there was no fight that night. As we have seen since Caylee went missing, neither Cindy nor KC is noted for self restraint. Cindy probably told KC at the top of her lungs every little piece of damaging information she had up till then. If Cindy threatened to use this info to get custody of Caylee, KC probably countered that threat with her own threat of taking Caylee away so Cindy would never see her again. Then KC stormed off with a frightened, screaming Caylee.

I believe that Caylee, through no fault of her own, contributed some information to Cindy or, at least, said enough to let Cindy get the picture of Caylee's time with KC.

 

[SleuthTheTruth]

The sad thing is, IMO, I feel, Caylee would not have lived a long life in that family as long as KC had control of her. KC did not want Cindy, George and for that fact Lee knowing her business unless she wanted them to know it.

IMO - Caylee could and did, tell Cindy what her day’s were like, when Cindy would ask and when Caylee would talk without coaching. This I believe 100%. IMO - I think that Father’s Day, Cindy learned a lot of what was going on in Caylee’s life with her mother, and it was not good. IMO - KC was going to do away with Caylee anyway. KC knew it would be soon that Caylee was going to start telling on her. I believe Cindy confronted KC and that is the reason for the Duct Tape on Caylee’s face, to shut her up forever.

 

[Purple Iris]

The sad thing is, IMO, I feel, Caylee would not have lived a long life in that family as long as KC had control of her. KC did not want Cindy, George and for that fact Lee knowing her business unless she wanted them to know it.

IMO - Caylee could and did, tell Cindy what her day’s were like, when Cindy would ask and when Caylee would talk without coaching. This I believe 100%. IMO - I think that Father’s Day, Cindy learned a lot of what was going on in Caylee’s life with her mother, and it was not good. IMO - KC was going to do away with Caylee anyway. KC knew it would be soon that Caylee was going to start telling on her. I believe Cindy confronted KC and that is the reason for the Duct Tape on Caylee’s face, to shut her up forever.

With the previous internet searches that were done, it would show that Casey had been thinking of doing something to Caylee, at some point in the future; and it probably did deal with the fact that she was starting to talk.

Also, George was asked about Caylee's talking habits at one time, with either LE or the FBI.
He told that when he questioned Caylee about her day, "what did you and Zanny do today, or, Zachary, etc", she gave him a blank look.
She had no idea, NEVER spoke the name "Zanny or Zackary or Jeff", never mentioned a dog that Zanny had.
He was asked if Caylee could name people and he answered, "Oh yes, she knew her "Uncle E or Lee, and she knew Mallory, as Mowerli" or something like that. George spoke of it and of Caylee's speaking habits.
It's on the record somewhere.

Cindy had to have known that something not right was going on with Caylee. If she noticed the dark circles under her eyes, as we have, maybe her head went into the spin cycle and put 2 & 2 together regarding "Zanny", being possible Xanax. For God's sake, the woman is a nurse, she HAD to have wondered at some point in time you would think.

 

[john's mom]

The sad thing is, IMO, I feel, Caylee would not have lived a long life in that family as long as KC had control of her. KC did not want Cindy, George and for that fact Lee knowing her business unless she wanted them to know it.

IMO - Caylee could and did, tell Cindy what her day’s were like, when Cindy would ask and when Caylee would talk without coaching. This I believe 100%. IMO - I think that Father’s Day, Cindy learned a lot of what was going on in Caylee’s life with her mother, and it was not good. IMO - KC was going to do away with Caylee anyway. KC knew it would be soon that Caylee was going to start telling on her. I believe Cindy confronted KC and that is the reason for the Duct Tape on Caylee’s face, to shut her up forever.

Oh my God. It never hit me before that KC put the duct tape as a message to Cindy. Wow.

 

[Jenny60123]

I think there's some truth in this. My granddaughter is 22 months and she can give detail of her days. She too is an only, only child, only grandchild and usually the onlys are advanced from spending the majority of their time with adults. Caylee didn't spend much, if any, time with other children so I'm guessing her speech was advanced. I don't think her speaking caused her demise but I'm thinking it may have tied into Casey's frustrations.

I agree that most only children at that age would be very verbal. The only thing that gives me pause with Caylee is having seen those video's of her, how much was she really spoken to?

Edited to add: After giving it more thought, and having seen videos of Caylee, this was clearly a bright child. Even if her mother ignored her she would of still been learning from TV, Radio, her Grandparents, etc. It's just always killed me, those silent videos. Poor little sweet girl. No one can hurt you anymore. Xo.

 

[Reagan]

However, CA was used to Caylee chatting about "Zanny's" dog and other things...She would have noticed the change in speech patterns and behaviours, hair loss and other symptoms.

Just like CA noticed KC's pregnancy.. noticed she wasn't working.. noticed she wasn't going to graduate at the last minute?

Sorry. That sarcasm isn't directed towards you. I just think CA had her head in the sand all the time, because she couldn't bear the truth. (or just didn't care??)