A New Look at Intruder Theories

[angelwngs]

Chris- What are your thoughts please-

Why the basement?

Where did the head injury happen? If it was in JBR's bedroom then why take her to the basement to stage everything and then leave her there, unless to make it look like an inside job and ultimately make the R's look guilty?

If th head injury happened in the basement, how did the intruder get JBR from her bed to the basement without a serious struggle and obvious noise?

 

[Chrishope]

Chris- What are your thoughts please-

Why the basement?

Where did the head injury happen? If it was in JBR's bedroom then why take her to the basement to stage everything and then leave her there, unless to make it look like an inside job and ultimately make the R's look guilty?

If th head injury happened in the basement, how did the intruder get JBR from her bed to the basement without a serious struggle and obvious noise?

If it was an intruder, I think the head injury happened in the basement. Had it happened upstairs, it likely would have made enough noise to wake someone. It also might have required some clean up, which an intruder wouldn't really have had time for.

One exception to the above is that maybe the perp was going to hit JBR hard enough to knock her out, thus making it possible to take her either to the basement or out of the house - you know, like hitting someone with a sap the way they used to in the old film noir movies. Maybe he misjudged his strength, and his aim was a bit off. I'm not really clear on the amount of bleeding from the head bash, so I don't know how plausible this is. (arrgh, more research of something I've already looked up, but have now forgotten) So, I guess I'm positing a theory of unintended head injury caused by an intruder. (Hey, I'm getting a little better at IDI thinking - it's difficult to really shift gears and think from the opposite POV - but quite useful. Anyway it's more fun than going over your own theories again and again) Maybe the original plan is to take her from the house, but having done more injury than was intended, and realizing the head blow would be fatal, plans had to be changed. Maybe he couldn't be sure whether or not the head blow would be fatal - maybe looked like it, but couldn't take the chance of just leaving her, so he made sure she was dead.


The basement is the most remote point from the bedrooms. He needs a place where people aren't going to hear anything (he assumes- wrongly as it turns out). On the whole, I think the basement is the more likely place for the head bash. I think it's likely she screamed and he hit her in response.

 

[angelwngs]

The basement being the obvious place to go undetected, yet the scream was indeed heard.

That's what I was thinking as well. My problem is, thinking as an intruder, how was it logical, (there is that darn word 'logical' again...) to get her from her bedroom to the basement unheard and undetected. If he had the ransom note already written, the elements of the staging already set up and waiting in the basement, what type of intruder would chance bringing a conscious, JonBenet to the basement?

If there was indeed evidence of previous sexual assault, and if this had been worked into a repeated 'consensual' act with JonBenet, the perp would have had an established ongoing 'relationship" with her. The perp could have been the person who told JBR that Santa would visit her after Christmas, using that and the prior relationship to bribe and coax JBR downstairs. The perp could have known the home because the home could have been where most of the perverse acts had previously happened.

A month or so ago, my 4 year old cousin asked her mom if she thought she looked 'sexy' in her outfit. This child has picked up the concept of 'sexy' from television. She has never been exposed to beauty pagents or the like... Her mother was mortified!

In JonBenet's case add the element of training her to perform 'sexy' in pagents to the mix and imagine how easily the transition to an ongoing 'perverse relationship' could happen.

The game the perp plays is to sneal with JBR through the house. The pineapple even adds to the game...Seeing it in a bowl, leftover from earlier, the perp points it out, smiling and putting his finger over his mouth to say "Shhhh..." and pops a piece of pineapple into his mouth and JBR follows suit. He is building trust in being partners in crime...

If the perp knew the family was leaving for Mich. the next morning so this theory makes the timing makes sense. He needed a perverse fix now.

This is where the bed soiling rage comes into play, only this time it is the perp who goes nuts. Every previous time JBR and the perp had 'played' everything had gone well for the perp. This time, the perp had bribed JBR with Santa visiting after Christmas. She had already been disappointed by her My Twinn Christmas and now 'her friend', the perp had not measured up with his promise either. JBR is in her 'bratty' independent mode and is not only being combative but is making too much noise.

This theory sorta works up to the point of the staging part.... This perp could not have risked another trip upstairs to get the nightgown...and other elements of staging.

If he had previously gathered them and taken them to the basement to make her feel comfortable and intended to take them with him as trophies, why leave them and further chance getting caught?

And then there is the ransom note... It always makes any theory insanely difficult to understand.

 

[LI_Mom]

Ok, here's my IDI theory....

It's some nut who entered the house during the public tour & slipped away from the group & NEVER left.

He hid in the basement.... plenty of rooms to hide in if he heard someone coming downstairs....

whenever the Ramseys were out of the house (and he knows when they'll be gone for a good amount of time because he can hear them upstairs), he had plenty of time to snoop around & get to 'know' the family.

Maybe he hears Patsy driving JB crazy with all the pageant nonsense... maybe he's angry because John doesn't protect her..... he starts to feel for JB.

Maybe JB even knew he was living down there BEFORE she was killed.... maybe she went down to visit him for the pineapple snack after her family was asleep.

Maybe JB was going to model her Barbie nightgown.... he's appalled at her sexualized behavior & once again, he's angry at Patsy & John.... but he's turned on at the same time.

It's all the Ramsey's fault that he ended up killing their daughter... now he'll make it look like THEY did it.

 

[BBB167893]

There are many, many examples of killers not making it look like the parents did it. You're taking a leap just so we can lead the trail back to Patsy. The moment I saw this thread, I knew that was gonna happen, but didn't expect it to happen so quickly.

Think outside the box......and "Patsy, Patsy, Patsy!! doesn't exist there.

Oh really? So anyone who doesn't lead it back to Patsy is an illogical airhead?

This thread is pointless.

Now just hold on, Buckethead. No one's trying to start trouble. It's just that some of us have been at this a while. Give a guy a chance.


The thread title means well but is obviously deceiving, as we all know(even us illogical airheads) what direction it's going.

The thread should be retitled "Patsy did it".

Start another thread. That'll help.


Having said that, I'll offer my opinion on the actual topic of the thread....

I think LE and everyone who has speculated on the case over the years made a mistake by simply labeling it an "intruder". It insinuates that the killer(s) were unknown to the family and just happened to walk up that night and pick their house out of the blue. I highly doubt anyone in the world actually thinks this crime was committed by a total stranger. Most murder victims are killed by someone they know, and that statistic is even higher regarding child murder victims. So whether or not it was a parent, the percentages are in favor of Jonbenet being murdered by someone she knew.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Of course, that can of worms being opened brings up the trillion dollar question.......who?

Well. pretty obvious we'll never know who exactly, mainly because of the authorities and the publics constant "Patsy did it! No, John did it! No, a strange intruder did it!, You're wrong! Patsy did it!!" This went on since the day it happened. The killer(s) is dead already from laughter.

Ouch.

So, lets take a look at a couple possible scenarios......

"The Stalker"

Why this isn't considered is mind boggling. She lived her life in the child pageant world surrounded by old men. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that men other than fathers or close relatives at these shows aren't there just to mingle. They're at these pageants to look at young girls. Jonbenet was a cute kid, so it wouldn't be surprising if one man became infatuated with her. In the pageant world, he could easily follow her from event to event and get to ogle her when he wants, and if local, would know her routine.

Like putting out sugar for ants.

"The relationship/abuser"

Sounds gross, but don't really know how else to put it.

I get you.

As all of you know, she grew up in a sexual environment and a LOT of inappropriate things went on. While most kids her age aren't thinking about sex, a kid brought up in her environment would start getting those types of feelings. She would already know her looks bring her a certain status, power, etc. It doesn't take much of a leap from her undressing in front of strangers to having actual sexual contact with one(or more) of them. Not only was she a prime target for abuse, she was brought up in an environment where the abuse/relationship/whatever you want to call it could have been consensual.

As consensual as it could be, or course.

Don't take that out of context. Not blaming her for what happened, but when you are brought up from birth to be worshiped like some doll, its not very many steps away from abuse of some sort. When looking at her childhood and how she was raised, you literally start drowning in red flags. Its sickening that any child could be raised in such an environment, and probably plays a role in so much suspicion on her parents.

Change "probably" to "definitely."

The abuser would have seen his/her life unraveling at just the thought of her leaving(the trip, moving). Not only would he not get to see her again, he would be risking her eventually telling someone. Once she was away from the abuse, she would be more likely to report it.

You've done your homework.

So IF an abuser killed her, its like a "since I cant have you, no one can" situation.

This abuser could either be someone that was a stranger somewhat or an actual family friend/relative. Hell, it could even be a teenager in the neighborhood.

Also cant discount the possibility of some business associate either committing this crime, or paying someone else to do it.

Like I said in that other thread, she was killed basically hours before that trip was gonna take place. That isn't a coincidence no matter who killed her. Its a piece of the puzzle that was just tossed aside because it would have required actual brainstorming by investigators. Why bother thinking when her mother's sitting there loaded on downers and is an easy target?

Double ouch!

They took the easy way out by aiming their sights on Patsy, and the public followed like sheep to the slaughter.

Tread softly, friend.

Where did that line of thinking get them after twelve years?

Nowhere.

Plenty of reasons for that.

Hell, Patsy might have been able to actually help solve the case if the right questions had been answered. Instead, Barney Fife and society start blaming her before her daughter is even buried. Of course they're not gonna cooperate.

That's not quite how I remember it. Besides, to hear her tell it, she did cooperate, whenever John's not giving excuses why they didn't. Can't be both.

Hopefully one of these days someone with a brain opens those case files.

AMEN to that.

In my opinion it can no longer be solved(and was unsolvable a mere hours after the murder), but maybe a legitimate attempt at piecing things together can finally happen.

One thing's sure: this current crop won't do it.

By the way, whatever happened to Santa? Is he still giving "special presents" to little girls late at night, or is there some theory that Patsy is really Santa?

If you mean "Santa Bill" McReynolds, he's also dead. Back in 2002.

AG personel did not know the home prior to the murder so they entered the home early in the evening and spent several hours gathering all the things needed to do the crime and to familiarize themselves with the house... (SD, pretend they also had Ninja night Vision...)

LOL. Angelwngs, I have ninjas on the brain lately!

 

[angelwngs]

The Barbie night gown was found by investigators "bundled up in the blanket" which JR said was wrapped around JBR when he found her.

Could this have been a previously worn nightgown and simply thrown on top of the blanket on her bed when she took it off and as JBR was picked up with the blanket the nightgown was inadvertedly picked up with her? :waitasec:

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

My post suggesting to firm RDI's to attempt to not use their logic but to attempt to make an intruder theory work if possible was not intended as a sarcastic remark.

In order to get to the point of being a "firm RDI" every person I am familiar with at WS's has gone throught the mountain of facts, behaviors, blunders, and physical evidence to "logically" come to their conclusion. The only way at this point in the case for them to attempt an intruder theory is to not use their logical mind, IMO. This is not to say that their logical mind is correct. It is possible that we've logically arrived at an incorrect conclusion, but it is to say that using our own LOGIC, is where we have gone to get where we are today.

IDI's use your own logic... RDI's use whatever you must, but please at least attempt a workable intruder theory.

My problem as an RDI is that every intruder theory which I come up with ultimately ends up expolding in my face as an impossible option due to adding an additional piece of the puzzle.

This is how I felt about RDI. They take the obvious and circumvent it. The obvious is that JBR was apparently kidnapped, so her parents called 911. Later her strangled, possibly sexually assaulted body was found in the basement.

The not so obvious are the reasons why.

I'd forgive RDI for falsy accusing the R's, to an extent, because the crime scene in itself is paradoxical. You have a ransom note demanding money for JBR on the stairs, and a murder by strangulation with possible sexual assault in the basement.

My belief is that it was a botched kidnapping, as Chrishope suggested is possible. I don't believe it was for money because JR had more than 118K, and because JBR had injuries that would contradict a kidnapping for ransom. The ransom note would just be a remnant from the original plan, that the perp did not bother to remove from the stairs.

I believe it was an attempt to kidnap JBR for long term. This is not without precedent, as many people have kidnapped small children and kept them for years.

 

[DeeDee249]

The Barbie night gown was found by investigators "bundled up in the blanket" which JR said was wrapped around JBR when he found her.

Could this have been a previously worn nightgown and simply thrown on top of the blanket on her bed when she took it off and as JBR was picked up with the blanket the nightgown was inadvertedly picked up with her? :waitasec:

If the nightie was bundled up in the white blanket, it was because it was inadvertently pulled out if the basement dryer clinging to it.

For the sake of the thread, I'll try to form an IDI theory, But NO Small Foreign Faction and NO stranger. The intruder has to be familiar with the family, and be someone known to JBR, as I believe she went willingly and comfortably with whoever did this.
Let's say it was someone who was at the Rs party on the 23rd. Possibly they scouted out hiding places, even possibly unlocking a door. NO WAY did anyone move that grate and get in or especially OUT through that window. OK- so lets say that someone leaves the Butler's Pantry door unlocked. The Rs were known to be lax about locking doors and JR admitted they did not use the alarm because the kids had been fooling with it. So possibly someone knew this. I can imagine someone other than PR and JR committing this crime, but the only people who seem to fit are JAR (and/or one of his college buddies) Grandpa, one of the Rs friends' kids, one of the Rs male friends. I can even imagine some guest from the party on the 23rd hiding in the house, knowing the Rs were going to be out Christmas Day. JBR WAS presented in a sexual way. There are a lot of sickos out there to be sure. But someone was molesting her repeatedly. And a chid of that age had a limited circle of people who had that kind of access. Yes, I concede that this access need not have been the parents/brothers exclusively. But the "intruder" who looms largest in my IDI is JAR. Because he had the access, he had the familiarity, and his guilt explains a lot of the parents' behavior.
BUT I simply cannot get through a couple of things- I feel absolutely sure that PR wrote the note. I can't imagine her covering up the brutal murder of a daughter she clearly loved (lets leave her mental issues or choice of JRB's pageant activities out of it) for a anyone other than 1. another family member or 2. a close friend who may have information about the Rs that they did not want made public.
I also feel the R lied about certain things that there really was no reason to lie about- owning the pineapple and bowl, for one. Even if the intruder fed her the pineapple, why deny you had it in your fridge? The shirt she wore, etc. And the fibers in the garrote, tape, panties are hard to explain. JBR was already covered by a blanket when PR threw herself on top of her under the tree, and she was face up (cocked to the right) and the knot in the garrote containing the fibers was in the back of her neck. Her clothing was not removed until the coroner did it, FW was right behind JR when he found the body, and would have seen him pulling up her panties if they had been down. The blanket was reportedly pulled up around her torso, with head/arms and legs sticking out, so the JRs shirt fibers in her panties and hard to explain. He also said her legs were taped, yet no one reported seeing them taped, FW did not say he saw the tape removed from her legs, and there would have BEEN this larger piece of tape left behind and the only tape found was the piece on her mouth. There was no residue of the tape on her legs or the longjohns. So that's hard to get past also.
Their refusal to cooperate and the questions their lawyers refused to allow them to answer make them look guilty, as does the the DAs refusal to supoena phone records etc.
I will even admit that when this case hit the news in 1996 I immediately thought that maybe some pervert who had followed her pageants had gotten into the house and done this, maybe dressed as Santa. But as I read and learned more, those theories faded away.
You have to understand it's hard to explain certain things. Many RDIs really want the parents to be innocent, no one wants to think that JBR met such a violent end at the hands of people she loved. But we just keep coming back to the same place.
See, an RDI can play nice and try to be objective and see the other side- but it doesn't actually convince me.

 

[LI_Mom]

I believe it was an attempt to kidnap JBR for long term. This is not without precedent, as many people have kidnapped small children and kept them for years.

Then you grab the child & leave..... and live happily ever after with your new 'daughter.'

You don't spend an extra second in the house once you grab the little bundle. IF she was bigger, I'd buy that she might have been difficult to control.... since she was small & skinny, it's very easy to manage her with just some duct tape over her mouth & you tie her arms & legs so you can carry her easily.

This is one highly incompetent 'kidnapper.'

 

[DeeDee249]

And yes, people do kidnap children and keep them for years; there was a case just last year where a boy was found 4 years after he was kidnapped by a pedophile. Though I must say that usually kidnappings like this are done by a non-custodial parent, or someone else close to the child, like a babysitter, etc.

And the operative phrase is "keep for years". NOT kill before you even leave the house.

 

[LI_Mom]

And yes, people do kidnap children and keep them for years; there was a case just last year where a boy was found 4 years after he was kidnapped by a pedophile. Though I must say that usually kidnappings like this are done by a non-custodial parent, or someone else close to the child, like a babysitter, etc.

And the operative phrase is "keep for years". NOT kill before you even leave the house.

Shawn Hornbeck and Ben Ownby

Elizabeth Smart

Steven Staynor


Kidnapped by strangers BUT they were all grabbed & whisked away immediately. Their abductors didn't spend extra time in the area so they would chance being caught.

 

[Chrishope]

I believe it was an attempt to kidnap JBR for long term. This is not without precedent, as many people have kidnapped small children and kept them for years.

Why the RN then? How does that help the perp?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I believe it was an attempt to kidnap JBR for long term. This is not without precedent, as many people have kidnapped small children and kept them for years.

Why the RN then? How does that help the perp?

You asked for it.

What you could do is imagine you're JR, the crime scene is without JBR in the basement. IOW she's gone with the kidnappers (not a botched kidnapping). You've got the RN, and thats it. No garrote, no cord, tape, or anything. There's the 911 call, and LA telling JR to search the house, but not finding anything.

Now what do you have, an RN that says get money and don't talk to a stray dog. It says wait for a call. It says "I'll call tomorrow between 8 and 10." Does that mean today or tomorrow?

What parent wouldn't talk? He would naturally at some point violate the terms of the RN. Thats where the 'denied her remains for burial' would come in. Thats the perp asking JR to accept JBR for dead without the body as proof. Meanwhile, JBR is alive in another country.

 

[Chrishope]

You asked for it.

What you could do is imagine you're JR, the crime scene is without JBR in the basement. IOW she's gone with the kidnappers (not a botched kidnapping). You've got the RN, and thats it. No garrote, no cord, tape, or anything. There's the 911 call, and LA telling JR to search the house, but not finding anything.

Now what do you have, an RN that says get money and don't talk to a stray dog. It says wait for a call. It says "I'll call tomorrow between 8 and 10." Does that mean today or tomorrow?

What parent wouldn't talk? He would naturally at some point violate the terms of the RN. Thats where the 'denied her remains for burial' would come in. Thats the perp asking JR to accept JBR for dead without the body as proof. Meanwhile, JBR is alive in another country.

I still don't see how this helps the perp. Who cares what JR is accepting. If the plan is to take her and keep her long term, then just do it. How does the RN help to carry out this plan? What is gained from it? Nothing as far as I can see. It's not like the FBI is going to call off the investigation after 10am. It's also not as if they're going to send agents all over the world looking for one girl.

 

[UKGuy]

You asked for it.

What you could do is imagine you're JR, the crime scene is without JBR in the basement. IOW she's gone with the kidnappers (not a botched kidnapping). You've got the RN, and thats it. No garrote, no cord, tape, or anything. There's the 911 call, and LA telling JR to search the house, but not finding anything.

Now what do you have, an RN that says get money and don't talk to a stray dog. It says wait for a call. It says "I'll call tomorrow between 8 and 10." Does that mean today or tomorrow?

What parent wouldn't talk? He would naturally at some point violate the terms of the RN. Thats where the 'denied her remains for burial' would come in. Thats the perp asking JR to accept JBR for dead without the body as proof. Meanwhile, JBR is alive in another country.

Holdontoyourhat,
You have spent a lot of time on posts regarding the ransom note. Other people simply realise an intruder need not take the risk of writing a ransom note. The alleged kidnapper can simply phone the Ramsey house from some payphone anywhere on the planet, irrespective of whether JonBenet is dead or alive. Stating I/We have JonBenet and I/We want $118,000, don't contact anyone else or you will never see her again.

The ransom note is staging plain and simple, no amount of rhetoric will change that, same applies to JonBenet's size-12's or Garrote. The wine-cellar layout is just like some CSI crime-scene as might be displayed in the TV-Series, including all the clues that lead back to the parents, most damning of all is JonBenet being sexually assaulted yet wiped down and redressed.

.

 

[angelwngs]

snip~

What parent wouldn't talk? He would naturally at some point violate the terms of the RN. Thats where the 'denied her remains for burial' would come in. Thats the perp asking JR to accept JBR for dead without the body as proof. Meanwhile, JBR is alive in another country.

Humm...Both R parents wouldn't talk to LE in order to get their child's body back sooner for burial when LE was attempting to use that ploy.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I still don't see how this helps the perp. Who cares what JR is accepting. If the plan is to take her and keep her long term, then just do it. How does the RN help to carry out this plan? What is gained from it? Nothing as far as I can see. It's not like the FBI is going to call off the investigation after 10am. It's also not as if they're going to send agents all over the world looking for one girl.

Theres at least 2 ways the long RN would help the perp. Any perp.

If the parents found JBR missing from her bed in the middle of the night, they would find the note before they would find the perp. Otherwise the parents could barge into the basement looking for JBR unannounced. On the stairs it acts like a tripwire for an alarm bell. By the time the parents frantically read the whole note, which did say not to call police, the perp(s) could escape.

If the kidnapping weren't botched or aborted, and JBR was missing from the house, then the RN effectively threatens JBR if JR calls the police, in the perps eyes. I think the RN author truly believed the parents would be so shocked and threatened by the note that they would not call police. If the R's had complied with the note and not called police, then there wouldn't be a broadcast for up to 3 adults and a blond 6 year old girl on the highway. A true kidnapper who needs to be in a car with a 6 year old matching JBR's description would have needed threaten JR to not call police.

 

[LI_Mom]

Theres at least 2 ways the long RN would help the perp. Any perp.

If the parents found JBR missing from her bed in the middle of the night, they would find the note before they would find the perp. Otherwise the parents could barge into the basement looking for JBR unannounced. On the stairs it acts like a tripwire for an alarm bell. By the time the parents frantically read the whole note, which did say not to call police, the perp(s) could escape.

If the kidnapping weren't botched or aborted, and JBR was missing from the house, then the RN effectively threatens JBR if JR calls the police, in the perps eyes. I think the RN author truly believed the parents would be so shocked and threatened by the note that they would not call police. If the R's had complied with the note and not called police, then there wouldn't be a broadcast for up to 3 adults and a blond 6 year old girl on the highway. A true kidnapper who needs to be in a car with a 6 year old matching JBR's description would have needed threaten JR to not call police.

So instead of simply escaping.... this intruder leaves a note to give himself more time with his kidnap victim in the basement so he'll have a few extra minutes to escape in the event the parents happen to use the circular staircase???

Why would the parents go ALL the way down the circular staircase in the middle of the night... if they want to go to the kitchen, they use their OWN staircase... if they want to check the children.... they would NOT go to the bottom of the circular staircase.

It's pretty implausible that any kidnapper would simply drive around with a 6 year old kidnap victim in plain view.... she'd be in the trunk or in the back under a blanket. Kidnapper drives carefully & leaves Boulder at his leisure..... probably before the RN is found but for sure before any effective roadblocks can be set up.

Escaping with a 6 year old in the middle of the night is rather easy..... but ONLY if you don't waste time having tea parties & stopping for some sex games in the basement.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

So instead of simply escaping.... this intruder leaves a note to give himself more time with his kidnap victim in the basement so he'll have a few extra minutes to escape in the event the parents happen to use the circular staircase???

Why would the parents go ALL the way down the circular staircase in the middle of the night... if they want to go to the kitchen, they use their OWN staircase... if they want to check the children.... they would NOT go to the bottom of the circular staircase.

It's pretty implausible that any kidnapper would simply drive around with a 6 year old kidnap victim in plain view.... she'd be in the trunk or in the back under a blanket. Kidnapper drives carefully & leaves Boulder at his leisure..... probably before the RN is found but for sure before any effective roadblocks can be set up.

Escaping with a 6 year old in the middle of the night is rather easy..... but ONLY if you don't waste time having tea parties & stopping for some sex games in the basement.

Did somebody say blanket? Really?

 

[LI_Mom]

Did somebody say blanket? Really?

What are you trying to say? Just come out & say it.