Another theory

beesy said:
Yes, that was the story, but I think I remember the supposed renewal being awhile away, yet here's her dress all spread out. And if I recall nothing had been prepared for the ceremony. It didn't seem set in stone. I'm not saying it wasn't out for that reason, but it seemed sneaky to me. I see bad in everything though. My glass is always half-empty.
Wasn't Dana engaged? I like your quote
Thanks.

The wedding dress could be significant, I guess, I just never gave it much thought/ It does connect with Darin's statements to the therapist after the crime about Darlie having problems with the kids and them not beiing able to run around in the nude anymore. Maybe the marriage meant more to her than I have given it credit before.
 
beesy said:
Ok, I thought had lost my mind, yet again, I just got it back. It was in the lost and found at Wal-Mart. I found where dasgal/Jon Galt mentions the wedding dress. It's not in her timeline, just in a discussion

[/b][/i][/color][/size]
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39605
Darlie freaks out and fall into a medicated depression. She isn't thinking straight. She drags out the wedding dress, the photo album, the birth certificates and all the rest

But Darlie was not medicated with anything but diet pills/ Sounds to me more like she was having a discussion with someone about these things.
 
They were supposed to renew their vows and Darlie's thinking is that she was on a diet so the dress would have to be taken in and that's the excuse we heard for it being out. However, if memory serves me right, it was still four months from the time of the renewal and anyone whose ever been on a diet knows that if you get a dress sized four months before the time you're going to wear it, you're in HUGE trouble because chances are that you'd be in a completely different size by that time. Besides, I've never heard of anyone renewing their vows wearing the same wedding dress they got married in. Usually, after three kids and several years of marriage, a white wedding dress is not what you'd wear.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
They were supposed to renew their vows and Darlie's thinking is that she was on a diet so the dress would have to be taken in and that's the excuse we heard for it being out. However, if memory serves me right, it was still four months from the time of the renewal and anyone whose ever been on a diet knows that if you get a dress sized four months before the time you're going to wear it, you're in HUGE trouble because chances are that you'd be in a completely different size by that time. Besides, I've never heard of anyone renewing their vows wearing the same wedding dress they got married in. Usually, after three kids and several years of marriage, a white wedding dress is not what you'd wear.
That has always confused me. There was a wedding in the family 4 months away but Darlie said they were on a waiting list and it would be at least 2 years. So were they going to horn in on the relative's wedding to avoid the wait or what?
 
beesy said:
I was referring to Jon Galt's timeline. She's dasgal too. I think in one of her timelines she says she thinks Darlie took her wedding dress out that night, worried and depressed about her marriage. It was found laid out on the sofa in the formal LR.


The wedding dress on the living room sofa is another one of CWB's "special effects", beesy (like his overlay bootprints that didn't exist). It's State's exhibit 15-B, and Walling was asked if there was anything out of order in the formal living room. His answer was "no". I don't think he and all the other officers would have missed a big, white wedding gown lying across the couch.

There's no testimony - none at all - about a wedding dress in the living room. CWB invented it to support Darlie's story that she and Darin were lovebirds, and couldn't wait to renew their wedding vows.

I don't know what that white thing is on the sofa (or even if there is a white thing on the sofa), but it definitely isn't a wedding dress...at least, there is no testimony to support it.
 
You can see the edge of the wedding dress sitting on a red couch in State's Exhibit 15-B. Apparently, Dana was supposed to be getting marred a couple of weeks after the murder and Darlie and Darin were going to do it then. Don't ask me why she'd want to take away from her sister's wedding day by shifting the attention to her and Darin, but that's the story.
 
Mary456 said:
The wedding dress on the living room sofa is another one of CWB's "special effects", beesy (like his overlay bootprints that didn't exist). It's State's exhibit 15-B, and Walling was asked if there was anything out of order in the formal living room. His answer was "no". I don't think he and all the other officers would have missed a big, white wedding gown lying across the couch.

There's no testimony - none at all - about a wedding dress in the living room. CWB invented it to support Darlie's story that she and Darin were lovebirds, and couldn't wait to renew their wedding vows.

I don't know what that white thing is on the sofa (or even if there is a white thing on the sofa), but it definitely isn't a wedding dress...at least, there is no testimony to support it.
Doesn't surprise me. I was only repeating what jongalt/dasgal said because I thought it was a good observation. No surprise at all if it doesn't even exist, but it looks like a dress to me. I'll have to go stare at the picture again.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
You can see the edge of the wedding dress sitting on a red couch in State's Exhibit 15-B. Apparently, Dana was supposed to be getting marred a couple of weeks after the murder and Darlie and Darin were going to do it then. Don't ask me why she'd want to take away from her sister's wedding day by shifting the attention to her and Darin, but that's the story.
yeah, that was the story, which is why I always felt something else was going on. And Jongalt's theory sounds more believable than Darlie's upchuck
 
MORE REPLIES:

I have continued to look at the feedback and, although, I can't remember every comment, I can address some of the more interesting ones. A comment I saw more than once was that I was probably off base when I said that Darlie Routier had a miserable childhood. Well, I am willing to live and learn, and I suppose that I have to concede that maybe her childhood was not as miserable as I thought. I did not think it was very happy and I got the distinct impression that she was running away from it. I had to adjust my thinking that maybe it was merely the poverty of it, rather than general misery of it, that was causing her problems. I think the bottom line is this: there was something regarding that childhood that she absolutely did not want to return to. She engaged in the extreme behavior at that party when she was 16-years-old where she made up the phony attempted sexual assault story to get Darin's attention. Too, approximately one month before the murders, she apparently addresses her sons and writes in her diary, "I hope that one day you will forgive me for what I am about to do. My life has been such a hard fight for a long time, and I just can't find the strength to keep fighting anymore." (Quoted from Skip Hollandsworth, " Maybe Darlie Didn't Do It, Texas Monthly, July 2002). That entry occurred when the couple's money problems must have been very evident and indicates to me that she has spent a long time trying to escape from something and now she is afraid that whatever she was trying to escape is catching up with her again.

I am also willing to back off my claim that Darlie suddenly snapped after having her argument with Darin, and then went and stabbed the two children. That certainly was my initial feeling, but I agree with Jeana who said that it is more likely that Darlie fought with Darin, became angry for a little while well contemplating her argument with Darin, and then went and stabbed the boys. I agree that there was premeditation and also that it was not very lengthy.

One claim that I am not willing to back off, which was challenged by Beesy and Goody, is that she is a garden-variety sociopath because it is quite clear that she is one. I think there is some misunderstanding in this regard. Goody essentially asked whether I thought the incident at the party when she was 16 made her a sociopath or whether I thought all murderers are sociopaths (in other words, whether the act of murder makes a person a sociopath.) My response is that being a sociopath is more of a process. I indicated that I thought that Darlie was developing into one in her high school years; no later than that party did she start acquiring the one and only skill she had before she graduated from high school, the skill of manipulating people. She then ran off and married Darin, and continued to manipulate him by "pushing his buttons" every time she needed money and he wouldn't come across with it ("I think we need a separation, I'm going to go stay with my friend so-and-so.") After the murders, when her defense attorney, Doug Mulder, tells her not to take the stand and what will happen if she does, she ignores his sage advice and takes the stand because she knows that she will be able to manipulate her way past the jurors. (Too bad it didn't work.) She is still manipulating people today (Anne Good is one prime example) because I have seen her do interviews where she says things to the effect of, "I think some day I am going to wake up from this terrible dream" (translation: this could happen to you, too, folks) and "Why can't people see the truth?" (sorry Darlie, but too many of them can and that is why you are where you are at.) In her own mind, she is a world-class manipulator. I think both Goody and the State of Texas misunderstand sociopaths because the State of Texas said after the Randall Dale Adams "Thin Blue Line" case (prosecuted by Doug Mulder) that Adams was a violent sociopath. The problem is that people don't kill solely because they are sociopaths and not all killers are sociopaths; they kill because they are sociopaths and life spins horribly out of control, as it did in Darlie's case. One of my favorite books, Plain Speaking, by Merle Miller, is a biography of Harry Truman. Truman was discussing his relationship with General Douglas MacArthur, but he could have been talking about Darlie as well: "The American people always see through a counterfeit. It sometimes takes a little time, but eventually they can always spot one."

Darlie simply can't relate to another human being without manipulating that person to her own benefit. This pattern of behavior has been going on for at least 20 years. Feel free to conclude that she is not one, but I believe that she is and that the question is not close. I do acknowledge that it would be nice to get a psychological evaluation done of her, but I don't see that it will happen.
 
Garden-variety psycopath. That's funny but a very good description. Not somebody that sits around trying to figure out how to murder everyone in their path.

And I agree. She is a psycopath. A psycopath that has no feelings and/or conscious and is always trying to figure out how they should act or feel, looking at others to see if they have succeeded. You can see it in her eyes in all her interviews. Trying to be one step ahead. Someone you might not figure out for years and years if she was part of your family or a good friend.
 
One claim that I am not willing to back off, which was challenged by Beesy and Goody, is that she is a garden-variety sociopath because it is quite clear that she is one. I think there is some misunderstanding in this regard
.

I have been after these people for months trying to talk them into believing she has one or many personality disorders, but it's not sociopath. I understand exactly what you are saying. Firstly, may I say that Sociopath in now referred to as Antisocial personal disorder. Here is the definition:
Antisocial personality disorder is a psychiatric condition characterized by chronic behavior that manipulates, exploits, or violates the rights of others. This behavior is often criminal.
Causes, incidence, and risk factors
Personality disorders are chronic behavioral and relationship patterns that interfere with a person's life over many years. To receive a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder,a person must have first had behavior that qualifies for a diagnosis of conduct disorder during childhood.The cause of antisocial personality disorder is unknown, but genetic factors and child abuse are believed to contribute to the development of this condition. People with an antisocial or alcoholic parent are at increased risk. Far more men than women are affected, and unsurprisingly, the condition is common in prison populations.Fire-setting and cruelty to animals in children are linked to the development of antisocial personality.
Symptoms: A person with antisocial personality disorder:
  • Breaks the law repeatedly
  • Lies, steals, and fights often
  • Disregards the safety of self and others
  • Demonstrates a lack of guilt
  • Had a childhood diagnosis (or symptoms consistent with) conduct disorder
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000921.htm

This is not Darlie at all. It's more common in men. Usually a habitual criminal, abuse to animals(NO) Darlie was a nice girl growing up. I don't see symptoms of early antisocial PD. Yes, she has some of the symptoms, but not enough to diagnose her with this very serious PD
Darlie simply can't relate to another human being without manipulating that person to her own benefit. This pattern of behavior has been going on for at least 20 years. Feel free to conclude that she is not one, but I believe that she is and that the question is not close(what do you mean here: I think you left out a letter. Are you saying the question is closed or not closed). I do acknowledge that it would be nice to get a psychological evaluation done of her, but I don't see that it will happen

Agreed, which is why I and many others think she has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Histrionic Personality Disorder
Narcissistic personality disorder is a condition characterized by an inflated sense of self-importance and an extreme preoccupation with one's self.
Causes, incidence, and risk factors
The cause of this disorder is unknown. Personality disorders are long-lasting patterns of behavior that cause problems with relationships and work. Narcissistic personality disorder usually begins by early adulthood and is marked by disregard for the feelings of others, grandiosity, obsessive self-interest, and the pursuit of primarily selfish goals.
Symptoms: A person with narcissistic personality disorder:
  • Reacts to criticism with feelings or rage, shame, or humiliation
  • Takes advantage of others to achieve own goals
  • Has feelings of self-importance
  • Exaggerates achievements and talents
  • Is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love Darlie wanted to be an actress or model
  • Has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment
  • Requires constant attention and admiration
  • Lacks empathy
  • These are so obviously Darlie-like that I don't even need to provide examples.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000934.htm#Symptoms


Histrionic personality disorder involves a pattern of excessive emotional expression and attention-seeking, including an excessive need for approval and inappropriate seductiveness. It usually begins in early adulthood.
Causes, incidence, and risk factors: The cause of this disorder is unknown, but childhood events and genetics may both be involved. It occurs more frequently in women than in men, although some feel it is simply more often diagnosed in women because attention-seeking and sexual forwardness is less socially acceptable for women. People with this disorder are usually able to function at a high level and can be successful socially and at work. They may seek treatment for depression when romantic relationships end.They often fail to see their own situation realistically, instead tending to over dramatize and exaggerate. Responsibility for failure or disappointment is usually blamed on others.
Symptoms
  • Constant seeking of reassurance or approval house in perfect order
  • Excessive dramatics with exaggerated displays of emotions Screaming like a banshee and collapsing at her sons' wake when she had not so much as shed a tear anywhere else
  • Excessive sensitivity to criticism or disapproval
  • Inappropriately seductive appearance or behavior While being interviewed by Frosch she pulled her knickers to the halfway down so he could see her belly button ring and her tattoo. Wearing a thong to a neighbor's garage sale got her lots of attention, so did mowing the lawn in it!
  • Excessive concern with physical appearance: The pounds of makeup and gallons of bleach she uses and her bought *advertiser censored* make her hard to ignore
  • A need to be the center of attention (self-centeredness) again, the *advertiser censored*, the makeup, the big hair. Crying rape when Darin didn't pay attention to her for probably about 10 minutes, if that long.
  • Low tolerance for frustration or delayed gratification
  • getting annoyed with boys alot, doing things like shoving a cake in a child's face and that was in public.
    [*]Rapidly shifting emotional states that may appear shallow to others again, perfect home, upset when home isn't perfect..very upset...shoes aren't allowed inside.
    [*]Opinions are easily influenced by other people, but difficult to back up with details
    [*]Tendency to believe that relationships are more intimate than they actually are I think that happened with Basia, a guess only though.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001531.htm#Symptoms
Darlie, the Drama Queen, everything is over the top with her. From her furniture to Popsicle stains.
Feel free to prove me wrong. I fail to see that she CLEARY has antisocial PD
It would help your point if you posted a definition just so people could read it at the same time they read your post.
 
beesy said:
Agreed, which is why I and many others think she has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Histrionic Personality Disorder
Narcissistic Personality Disorder: Behavior or a fantasy of grandiosity, a lack of empathy, a need to be admired by others, an inability to see the viewpoints of others, and hypersensitive to the opinions of others
Were you aware Darlie always wanted to be an actress or somehow famous? I think Darlie did feel for people, unlike a sociopath but had a hard time connecting with them. Darlie was very insecure. She was nothing if people did not look up to her. If she and Darin had gone broke, she would have lost her position(as the ones who made it) in the family. Darlie did not grow up in poverty.
and we can't forget
Histrionic Personality Disorder: Exaggerated and often inappropriate displays of emotional reactions, approaching theatricality, in everyday behavior. Sudden and rapidly shifting emotion expressions

Darlie, the Drama Queen, everything is over the top with her. From her furniture to popsicle stains. Screaming like a banshee and collapsing at her sons' wake when she had not so much as shed a tear anywhere else. While being interviewed by Frosch she pulled her knickers to the side so he could see her belly button ring and her tattoo. Crying rape when Darin didn't pay attention to her for probably about 10 minutes, if that long. The pounds of makeup and gallons of bleach she uses and her bought *advertiser censored* make her hard to ignore. Wearing a thong to a neighbor's garage sale got her lots of attention!
I'm open for proof that I'm wrong.
[/font] [/center]

Hey Beesy,

I can see why you would tag Darlie with this label (though at the same time I think we have to recognise it is arm-chair pyschology at best). But what I don't get is how you go from saying she has a Narcissistic and Histrionic personality disorder to saying 'and so she is a murderer'. Is there evidence that this type of personality disorder often leads to violence on the part of the sufferer? What she did to those two boys is almost unimaginable. She killed her own children in cold blood. Whilst she might have been narcissitic and a drama queen I don't see how there is a direct link between that and the murders.
 
Dani_T said:
Hey Beesy,

I can see why you would tag Darlie with this label (though at the same time I think we have to recognise it is arm-chair pyschology at best). But what I don't get is how you go from saying she has a Narcissistic and Histrionic personality disorder to saying 'and so she is a murderer'. Is there evidence that this type of personality disorder often leads to violence on the part of the sufferer? What she did to those two boys is almost unimaginable. She killed her own children in cold blood. Whilst she might have been narcissitic and a drama queen I don't see how there is a direct link between that and the murders.
I've been editing my post for about 30 mins. go back and read it again I have never said she killed her children because she has these personality disorders. But, there are killers who have been diagnosed with them. It doesn't mean if someone has either or both they will kill. I would never consider myself knowledgeable enough to diagnose anyone. Jeana's friend is making a diagnosis which I believe to be incorrect. Do you believe Darlie is a "garden variety sociopath"? I don't so I am providing quotes, websites, and my interpretation of Darlie to show that I think she has NPD and HPD, not APD. OPINION ONLY! giving my opinion and backing it which is what I was taught to do on here. Cool?
 
beesy said:
.
I have been after these people for months trying to talk them into believing she has one or many personality disorders, but it's not sociopath. I understand exactly what you are saying. Firstly, may I say that Sociopath in now referred to as Antisocial personal disorder. Here is the definition:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000921.htm


This is not Darlie at all. It's more common in men. Usually a habitual criminal, abuse to animals(NO) Darlie was a nice girl growing up. I don't see symptoms of early antisocial PD. Yes, she has some of the symptoms, but not enough to diagnose her with this very serious PD
Agreed, which is why I and many others think she has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Histrionic Personality Disorder


http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000934.htm#Symptoms



  • </FONT></FONT></FONT>
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001531.htm#Symptoms








Darlie, the Drama Queen, everything is over the top with her. From her furniture to Popsicle stains.
Feel free to prove me wrong. I fail to see that she CLEARY has antisocial PD


It would help your point if you posted a definition just so people could read it at the same time they read your post.

Yeah, but these definitions are not enough information to leap from a handful of examples to a label, esp since there are no real patterns. I would think an anti-social personality would leave behind all sorts of patterns leading to the killing of a loved one;
 
an
anti-social personality would leave behind all sorts of patterns leading to the killing of a loved one;

You're right, which is why I do NOT believe Darlie is a sociopath. Her only known criminal act is murder. The other symptoms are habitual criminals, sleeping around, that sort of thing. Jeana's friend is saying she is"clearly" a sociopath, but I don't believe it. He/she directly addressed us, Goody and I'm simply explaining why I think his/her diagnosis is wrong. I thought you'd address her friend's statement as well since you and I were singled out.
Goody said:
Yeah, but these definitions are not enough information to leap from a handful of examples to a label, esp since there are no real patterns. I would think
As for this, I never said she did have NPD or HPD. I would never diagnose someone like that. She presents with many of the symptoms. I am only providing examples of the symptoms I believe she fits.
I do NOT believe she is a sociopath, not at all. And I said "think" "might" "opinion" for NPD and HPD
 
justice2 said:
Garden-variety psycopath. That's funny but a very good description. Not somebody that sits around trying to figure out how to murder everyone in their path.

And I agree. She is a psychopath. A psychopath that has no feelings and/or conscious and is always trying to figure out how they should act or feel, looking at others to see if they have succeeded. You can see it in her eyes in all her interviews. Trying to be one step ahead. Someone you might not figure out for years and years if she was part of your family or a good friend.
That's not a description, it's a diagnosis. Look at this list of symptoms for sociopath/antisocial/psychopath...it's called all 3 which is helpful(NOT)

A person with antisocial personality disorder:
  • Breaks the law repeatedly
  • Lies, steals, and fights often
  • Disregards the safety of self and others
  • Demonstrates a lack of guilt
  • Had a childhood diagnosis (or symptoms consistent with) conduct disorder
  • Far more men than women are affected
She obviously demonstrates lack of guilt, but do you see Darlie in the others? Are there rumors I don't know about of her sleeping around, stealing, "acting out" as a child? Fire-setting and cruelty to animals..... fire setting????? BAH!
There are other disorders in which the sufferer wears a mask. Disorders which fit her more than sociopath. Narcissism: selfish, look at me, able to function in society, I posted the symptoms in post #8. I am NOT saying she has NPD or HPD. but I am saying she does NOT have antisocial PD. To diagnose her with any of these, one must include Darlie's entire life, not just the murders and after.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/...icle/000921.htm
 
Well, debate definitions here all you want.

But Darlie is not socially normal. I stand by what I said.
 
justice2 said:
Well, debate definitions here all you want.

But Darlie is not socially normal. I stand by what I said.
Those are symptoms, not definitions. The word "antisocial" does not have anything to do with being socially normal. If you are going on the broad statement of socially normal, then you are saying she has all of the personality disorders. None of those are socially normal either. You cannot pick one of the symptoms and say she has antisocial PD. We're not talking about a broken arm here. The symptoms I posted are symptoms of APD. Those are the symptoms given by experts who have studied all sorts of people over the years.
 
beesy said:
Those are symptoms, not definitions. The word "antisocial" does not have anything to do with being socially normal. If you are going on the broad statement of socially normal, then you are saying she has all of the personality disorders. None of those are socially normal either. You cannot pick one of the symptoms and say she has antisocial PD. We're not talking about a broken arm here. The symptoms I posted are symptoms of APD. Those are the symptoms given by experts who have studied all sorts of people over the years.
Symptons, definitions, diagnosis. Can't follow what you are saying here.
 
beesy said:
an
You're right, which is why I do NOT believe Darlie is a sociopath. Her only known criminal act is murder. The other symptoms are habitual criminals, sleeping around, that sort of thing. Jeana's friend is saying she is"clearly" a sociopath, but I don't believe it. He/she directly addressed us, Goody and I'm simply explaining why I think his/her diagnosis is wrong. I thought you'd address her friend's statement as well since you and I were singled out.
As for this, I never said she did have NPD or HPD. I would never diagnose someone like that. She presents with many of the symptoms. I am only providing examples of the symptoms I believe she fits.
I do NOT believe she is a sociopath, not at all. And I said "think" "might" "opinion" for NPD and HPD
Jeana's friend has made it clear that he isn't going to change hiis mind so I didn't see any need to address his comments again. You have changed your mind about this in the last few months, haven't you? I thought you were of the mind that she was sociopathic. Sorry if I misunderstood your position.
 

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