Appeals Court: TX Had No Right to Remove Kids

[mysteriew]

Supposedly God is punishing all outsiders, for taking the FLDS children. The prophet controls the weather etc. As reported by Flora Jessops, who has heard this throught the grapevine.

Well gee, if I promise to say "I Believe" three times, can Warren assure me of a warm dry summer, not too hot not too cold with just enough rain that my garden will grow? And a mild winter?

 

[Hopeful One]

Supposedly God is punishing all outsiders, for taking the FLDS children. The prophet controls the weather etc. As reported by Flora Jessops, who has heard this throught the grapevine.

Riiiiiight. :bang:These people are nuts!!

 

[mollymalone]

It's absolutely about civil rights...the rights of the children not to be abused or forced into underage marriages.

Regardless of whether CPS went the right way about it or the wrong way, it has certainly focused attention upon the sect and its practices, the abuse;underage marriages; lost boys; and its financial finagling. That's something the flds can't be happy about and its long overdue.

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

Well gee, if I promise to say "I Believe" three times, can Warren assure me of a warm dry summer, not too hot not too cold with just enough rain that my garden will grow? And a mild winter?

No, but global warming will do that.

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

With all due respect, I don't feel that I need to justify or qualify the legitimacy of my opinion. The FLDS cult is an old one and you can't live or travel in Colroado, Utah or Arizona without having some awareness of them. I feel I'm pretty well informed on the topic and am well aware of the abuse. My opinion of which I hold firm to, is that the state of Texas overstepped it's bounds. Yes, as you said this is about the welfare of the children and it's also about civil rights.

Sally,
I will stand behind you on this one. I am not saying whether i agree or disagree that Texas over stepped their bounds. But, the judge obviously agrees that Texas over stepped their bounds. It isn't just about the kids. It is also about following the correct procedures. Texas took a pretty bold step in this case that will be tough to uphold.

 

[Pepper]

With all due respect, I don't feel that I need to justify or qualify the legitimacy of my opinion. The FLDS cult is an old one and you can't live or travel in Colorado, Utah or Arizona without having some awareness of them. I feel I'm pretty well informed on the topic and am well aware of the abuse. My opinion of which I hold firm to, is that the state of Texas overstepped it's bounds. Yes, as you said this is about the welfare of the children and it's also about civil rights.

Yep, and when the rights of the child are weighed against the civil rights of the parents, I will always be on th side of the children. Parent's don't own their children, and these kids have a right to live without the fear of an unwarranted beating or being forced to sleep with their uncle.

It will be interesting to see how it sorts out. My prayers and concerns will always be for the children.

 

[mysteriew]

Sally,
I will stand behind you on this one. I am not saying whether i agree or disagree that Texas over stepped their bounds. But, the judge obviously agrees that Texas over stepped their bounds. It isn't just about the kids. It is also about following the correct procedures. Texas took a pretty bold step in this case that will be tough to uphold.

That is true, the appeals court upheld the FLDS. So it puts the action in question, but doesn't necessarily make it a bad action. Instead it will have to work it's way up the justice chain. I think this one will go to the Supreme Court- and that could take years. Many of these kids will have aged out of the system before this will be final.

 

[Leila]

I heard this on Fox News.............I'm shocked! I hope this is appealed to a higher court ASAP!

I fear that when and if the FLDS recovers their children, they will disappear.

 

[believe09]

It's absolutely about civil rights...the rights of the children not to be abused or forced into underage marriages.

Regardless of whether CPS went the right way about it or the wrong way, it has certainly focused attention upon the sect and its practices, the abuse;underage marriages; lost boys; and its financial finagling. That's something the flds can't be happy about and its long overdue.

I am unaware that CPS proved that there were underage marriages in place. My understanding of the ruling today was that CPS did not prove to the appeals court that the children were in clear and imminent physical danger when they were taken, and that the potential of future abuse in the households affiliated with the sect was not sufficient proof that the harm would take place. Further, that CPS did not do enough to attempt to keep the children with the parents as they are mandated to do....

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/flds.ruling/index.html

In terms of the appeals court not vacating the ruling or specifically ordering the children returned, I think that this a common courtesy in a case where there is not some egregious ruling on the part of the lower court; it was clear this action would not hold up without blatant evidence-I think what is more shocking to me is that in 460 children, they could not find a single compelling case of documented abuse? 'Cause man, the state could at least hang their hat on one and show that they at least truly rescued one child....

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

I heard this on Fox News.............I'm shocked! I hope this is appealed to a higher court ASAP!

I fear that when and if the FLDS recovers their children, they will disappear.

I just heard that even if they are returned to the parents. The texas courts could put a requirment, that NONE of the children be taken out of Texas. Which is a good thing, dunno if it would be followed, but worth a shot.

 

[golfmom]

Wow ... just simply ... wow.

 

[Sally]

Yep, and when the rights of the child are weighed against the civil rights of the parents, I will always be on th side of the children. Parent's don't own their children, and these kids have a right to live without the fear of an unwarranted beating or being forced to sleep with their uncle.

It will be interesting to see how it sorts out. My prayers and concerns will always be for the children.

Nor does the state "own" them; and they better have some very strong evidence that they should be removed from their homes before they do it. What they do to the FLDS they could do to any one of us.

 

[Rino]

Yep, and when the rights of the child are weighed against the civil rights of the parents, I will always be on th side of the children. Parent's don't own their children, and these kids have a right to live without the fear of an unwarranted beating or being forced to sleep with their uncle.

It will be interesting to see how it sorts out. My prayers and concerns will always be for the children.

Is there an accusation that those who think TX overstepped don't care about the children?

 

[Trino]

I think what is more shocking to me is that in 460 children, they could not find a single compelling case of documented abuse? 'Cause man, the state could at least hang their hat on one and show that they at least truly rescued one child....

It's ridiculous what it takes to show abuse in today's courts. As long as the kids have food, shelter, and clothing, and no signs of physical trauma, the courts do not see abuse. It's really sad what a life of psychological issues these children will face if returned, but there are non-FLDS kids in the US that are certainly in worse shape.

According to the courts, pologamy, although against the law, must be okay.

If Texas loses big time, I predict FLDS will sue for damages to their compound, maybe even sue because their civil rights were violated. Texas could be facing big time compensation.

 

[ttrachel04]

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[Leila]

Nancy Grace is covering this tonight and she's got Flora Jessop as her guest.

 

[mollymalone]

I am unaware that CPS proved that there were underage marriages in place. My understanding of the ruling today was that CPS did not prove to the appeals court that the children were in clear and imminent physical danger when they were taken, and that the potential of future abuse in the households affiliated with the sect was not sufficient proof that the harm would take place. Further, that CPS did not do enough to attempt to keep the children with the parents as they are mandated to do....

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/flds.ruling/index.html

In terms of the appeals court not vacating the ruling or specifically ordering the children returned, I think that this a common courtesy in a case where there is not some egregious ruling on the part of the lower court; it was clear this action would not hold up without blatant evidence-I think what is more shocking to me is that in 460 children, they could not find a single compelling case of documented abuse? 'Cause man, the state could at least hang their hat on one and show that they at least truly rescued one child....

When CPS took custody of the children, a lot of former flds members and from the media provided information on the flds practices, including the under age marriages that take place within this sect. Many following this case were/are aware of the flds from way back, but many others were not.

Whatever evidence or information CPS has, I doubt all of it would be presented at this point in time until the investigation(s) were complete, whether that be into the broken bones as they reported, or the underage pregnancies (E.D. Hill reported on Fox tonight that 15 girls were in that category) etc.

We'll see how this turns out eventually, whether it goes to a higher court or not.

 

[mollymalone]

Journalist: This is only 38 of 170 mothers, the state can appeal, so it will be some time before the children go back to the compound. No, it doesn't mean this case is over, CPS can do individual investigations, independent investigations and sue each family individually, but the court is saying they can't do it as one lumped block.

Nancy: where will each of the children be? Right now, unless this decision is overturned where are the children headed?

Journalist: Most likely they would go home with their parents.

Nancy asked Flora how she felt.
Flora: I'm horrified and I'm hoping that we can appeal the decision. It's important that people realize that this isn't a community, one where you can drive in off the street. This is a compound. You can't get in unless as the guys say you can. They're saying you have to bring your tanks if you want to come back in here. CPS won't have any kind of control at this point.

Nancy: If they can force LE, Texas authorities not to set foot in there, what about a 13 year old girl, how is she going to get out?

Flora: she's not going to be able to get out or get help. They won't let the state come in and check on the children's welfare? There's no way these children can go back there.

Nancy: Checking on the children through monitored visits. How difficult is it going to be?

Jim Elliot: the spokesman said if you have a search warrant, and tanks..
(CPS) they're not there to find evidence, they're there to protect the children.

Guest (Lawyer for FLDS?) They lumped the bad people in with the good people. Court said give us an individual child with imminent harm.They didn't do it.

Nancy: With approximately 100 children, we don't know who their biological parents are. They don't get married in local courthouse with papers.. how are these underage marriages to be found?

Jim : CPS has to figure out a way to go in and protect these girls.
Nancy: what way?
Jim: File an individual case against individual people, and a court order to do the investigation. The court did not say CPS was wrong in going in or that they could not go in and take the children away, court did not say that.

They said at the 14 day hearing they had to have the individual case by case adversarial hearing showing imminent harm, at that point CPS basically blew it.

Caller: If polygamy is illegal in every state...then what makes these 3 judges think they're above Federal law?

Nancy: women not giving name of father's, we're only in a civil proceeding, not in a prosecution of criminal hearing..

Other Guest: Child welfare, burden of proof is so low, they don't need beyond a reasonable doubt, what they need is the preponderance of evidence.. it's hard to believe that they can't prove that with even the bishop's list.
That should be enough for bigamy charges.. Steed, listed a lot of wives and one was a 16 year old wife..They can't find Steed, he's long gone.

Nancy: They're ruling there has to be individual hearings for each child. They live communally, the children aren't sure who the biological mom is!

Flora: children are taken away at 1 year of age and are raised communally. They call them caretakers, not mothers. These kids don't know who their parents are or who their dads are.

Guest: Court ruling is correct because CPS didn't give them what they wanted. In the ...footnotes you can get married in Texas with parental consent. Under 16 you could get married with court order. It's like they're saying go see the parents, see if they gave consent.

Nancy: can you explain the girls that are underage married and pregnant?
Richard: 5, (holds up one hand fingers outspread) 5.
Nancy: Isn't one enough?

 

[mollymalone]

Nancy: The court stated "If the lower judge does not amend her order, in ten days they will give their own order sending the children back." In lieu of an appeal these children will be headed back.

Nancy: I don't think they understand this is a community, 5 known young girls that have just given birth, it's not about just those 5, they were wedded by the community to older men, the community condoned this. How many more do we have to know of before the panel of judges can accept that this is what goes on behind these walls?

Flora: I don't know how to answer that. We've brought forward hundreds of underage marriages to authorities in Utah and AZ and still nothing was done. The FLDS has stated that they will not keep their children on that compound. They're afraid CPS will come back in. They will be taken to Mexico and Canada, these children will never be seen again. If CPS has no children, they have no case.

Flora explained about abuse: Bruises, they don't touch your face, they hit you where bruises won't show, mentions the long underclothing. This is a white supremacist cult, they teach them hate and violence. These children are brought up in terror and horror.

If you get pregnant when you are in your wife training by your father.. (I think she said something about no medicine or something..) because you ....... you aren't supposed to get pregnant.

Nancy: This ruling acknowledges these girls..
Guest: The court acknowledges this..

Caller: if these women are getting welfare all these years? If they go back will they get welfare again?

Attorney is investigating this. People from his office, even if they leave the state of texas they will go after them.

Nancy: how can you date injuries as to when they occurred?
Guest: Look for multiple fractures that are of different ages, you can tell if in different ages of healing,
especially bruises in shape of hand or objects, or twisting movement.
Nancy: sect members wouldn't allow authorities into the ranch.

Guest: They'll eventually get back on, get a court order. They have every right to be on it, but they'll go get a court order.

Dr. : They'll move the molester out when CPS comes in to check, and when they leave they'll come back in.

 

[mysteriew]

Legally they are testing new territory so it isn't surprising that it is being kicked upstairs in the system.