Appeals Court: TX Had No Right to Remove Kids

[Pepper]

The problem with the adults and laying blame is at what point to you stop claiming victim status and start saying they are the perpetrators?

For the most part, all of the adults have been raised in this cult and conditioned to accept the prophet as the embodied word of God. You can say that they know no different. But as they have matured they go from being the abused to being the abusers, and now it is their children that are suffering. Somewhere and somehow we must protect the children and break the cycle of abuse. It is a very complicated problem, but it can't be allowed to continue unchallenged.

 

[cheko1]

I just don't get your post. The Iraqi gov't hung SH for starters....

With the Bush administration standing firmly behind them. Sorry if I never made myself clear.

 

[cheko1]

The problem with the adults and laying blame is at what point to you stop claiming victim status and start saying they are the perpetrators?

For the most part, all of the adults have been raised in this cult and conditioned to accept the prophet as the embodied word of God. You can say that they know no different. But as they have matured they go from being the abused to being the abusers, and now it is their children that are suffering. Somewhere and somehow we must protect the children and break the cycle of abuse. It is a very complicated problem, but it can't be allowed to continue unchallenged.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Well stated Pepper!

 

[mysteriew]

The problem with the adults and laying blame is at what point to you stop claiming victim status and start saying they are the perpetrators?

For the most part, all of the adults have been raised in this cult and conditioned to accept the prophet as the embodied word of God. You can say that they know no different. But as they have matured they go from being the abused to being the abusers, and now it is their children that are suffering. Somewhere and somehow we must protect the children and break the cycle of abuse. It is a very complicated problem, but it can't be allowed to continue unchallenged.

I agree. A child abuser was often abused as a child. A child molester was often molested as a child. But somewhere, somehow the cycle has to be broken. At some point you have to say, they were adults and they continued the cycle so they have to take responsibility.

At first I was hoping they wouldn't file on the polygamy. Mainly because it is such a hot button issue. But now I am hoping they begin filing the criminal charges soon. And that they file on the child abuse, child sexual abuse, fraud, tax evasion, welfare fraud, incest, obstruction of justice and polygamy and any other crime they find. Because that is what it is going to take to change that culture.

I am starting to see the polygamy as more than just a religous ideal. Polygamy is against the law. And when they break one law and get by with it, due to religous ideals- then they just believe they can break another law and get by with it if they call it religous ideals. They also seem to believe that they can go on TV and cry and lie and manipulate the public. They seem to believe they can lie to authorities without being held accountable. Then try to hold those same lies against the state.

Everyone is holding CPS accountable for losing the appeal. But from the way I am reading it, the appeals court was not so much objecting to the removal, they were objecting to the mass hearings in which CPS was not given opportunity to list the individual abuses and dangers. That was the courts decision, not the CPS. I understand why they did it, because the sheer numbers were overwhelming and due to the time limitations.

What they really need to do is start setting 'family' hearings' with the alleged father of each family determining the family unit. Alleged father has 5 'wives' then then that is one family, one hearing, 5 mothers and X number of children. That will make the alleged fathers come out of the woodwork. Units without an alleged father could be held in group and the mothers charged with obstruction of justice for refusing to name their child's fathers. That could also be deemed as evidence that the mother's were endangering the children by adhering to the religous ideals.

LOL, this may be bad of me. But I am kinda hoping that as they do the DNA tests that they get a few surprise paternity results. You know the old saying "Mommy's Baby, Daddy's Maybe". Well I am hoping they do get some surprises.

 

[KOOL LOOK]

I haven't been keeping up and as closely following as some of you here dedicated sleuthers have been. I removed myself when I felt I had my say and not whole lot more to contribute a few weeks ago.

Truly, and some others who posted with me. Here I am again. I made my opinions clear, and this ruling is only the beginnings of straightning out this mess. The children as I've said should never have been separated from the love and compassion of caring willing capable parents.

Our Governemnt crossed the line once again, and I'm big on my Government, love it and support it. I love America. Home of the Brave.

But it was an ego power pushing control jerks in the midst of this chaos who had some authority and did this autrocity to not only these people, but traumatized every parent in America who has enough vision to see what could happen in their very own homes too, just because somebody says so, or cuz somebody thinks they have more say so over your home and children than I do. I do not relinquish my rights and authority in my home, property and children.

I welcome my fellow sleuthers comments, either way of the side you may stand, hey to my buddies here, even the ones that we didn't see eye to eye on, but snicker, I said so. I told ya this wasn't gonna fly.

This is a serious matter, and I'm jokin with my buds, peace everyone.

 

[barb0301]

Texas CPS will appeal. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080523/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

:clap::clap::clap:

I hope they win.

 

[southcitymom]

SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- The state of Texas should not have removed more than 400 children it took from a polygamist sect's ranch, an appeals court ruled Thursday.

Earlier this year, authorities raided the Yearning for Zion ranch in Eldorado, Texas, after they received reports of child abuse.

About 460 children were taken from the ranch, which is run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a polygamist sect linked to the jailed "prophet" Warren Steed Jeffs.



http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/flds.ruling/index.html

I can't say I'm surprised. Of course they will appeal it but there's a good chance the higher Court will agree.

ETA: I personally am delighted the Court agrees that families shouldn't be ripped apart unless danger is imminent. I know others probably feel differently.

 

[southcitymom]

Hallelujah, justice has been served.

Doesn't anyone care that one of the so called child brides is actually 27? Or that the original call has been determined to be a hoax? Or that there is no proof that these children were abused?

And, if I may also ask, even if these children are at risk of being married off before the age of consent, does that mean that they do not love their mothers or that their mothers might love them? So why are they being separated? Why are they not being removed from the ranch and then being kept together? What purpose does separating a mother and her child serve?

Why are the men not being punished?

I also know that I certainly wouldn't my children taken from me simply because of rumors and a prank phone call.

Excellent post!

 

[southcitymom]

I haven't been keeping up and as closely following as some of you here dedicated sleuthers have been. I removed myself when I felt I had my say and not whole lot more to contribute a few weeks ago.

Truly, and some others who posted with me. Here I am again. I made my opinions clear, and this ruling is only the beginnings of straightning out this mess. The children as I've said should never have been separated from the love and compassion of caring willing capable parents.

Our Governemnt crossed the line once again, and I'm big on my Government, love it and support it. I love America. Home of the Brave.

But it was an ego power pushing control jerks in the midst of this chaos who had some authority and did this autrocity to not only these people, but traumatized every parent in America who has enough vision to see what could happen in their very own homes too, just because somebody says so, or cuz somebody thinks they have more say so over your home and children than I do. I do not relinquish my rights and authority in my home, property and children.

I welcoem my fellow sleuthers comments, either way of the side you may stand, hey to my buddies here, even the ones that we didn't see eye to eye on, but snicker, I said so. I told ya this wasn't gonna fly.

This is a serious matter, and I'm jokin with my buds, peace everyone.

Another excellent post.

 

[Pepper]

I know that there are some in the cult who are not practicing polygamy and are raising their own children in a family unit with one mother and one father, but they are exceptions to what is expected and dictated by their prophet.

It is a very complicated issue. However we must listen to those who have escaped the cult - like Flora Jessop, Carolyn Jessop and Laurie Allen - all of whom say that the majority of the children are physically and emotionally abused, many teen boys are abandoned, and young girls are being forced into marriages they don't want, and often with close blood relatives.

Many of you who feel that the children need to be reunited with their parents are viewing this personally, as if these cultist people have the same feelings for their children as you and I. Sadly that is not always the case. These people are conditioned to view child bearing as their duty to produce as many children as their fertility will allow. The women are breeding machines. They are taught to NOT establish close emotional ties with their children and to allow them to be raised and diciplined by their plural mothers and father who often doesn't know their name or which mother bore that child. These poor kids are communal property of the cult. This is totally contrary to how we are conditioned to love and care for our children.

I understand how we would all like to believe that these families mirror our own and that they just wear funny clothes. But the sad fact is that it goes much deeper than this.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

12 kids are being returned to parents

SAN ANTONIO -- Three couples whose children were seized during a raid at a West Texas polygamist sect's compound were granted temporary custody of their children pending an appeal of a state court's ruling that Texas officials failed to prove the children were in danger.

The couples' attornies negotiated a deal with state Child Protective Service officials about 3:30 p.m. in a Bexar County court. The children will remain in the custody of their parents until a ruling is handed down by the Texas Supreme Court or until June 9, when a hearing is scheduled on a temporary restraining order previously filed in a Bexar County court.

http://www.ksat.com/news/16377887/detail.html

 

[cook78]

I have a feeling them allowing 12 children go back with their parents is a test of sorts. Will those families up and dissapear now? Is DHS waiting and watching to see what they do? Hmmmm.... what do you think?

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

I beleive it is a test of some sort. However from my understanding, they have STRICT guidelines to follow, and they MUST remain in an undisclosed location in San Angelo.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

BTW Nancy Grace is covering this now

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Judge Barbra Walthers, is really IRATE with the appealt Judges, who said that she was in the wrong. She is going to draw out the custody hearing, to gather all evidence, so she can decide whether a child is to remain in state custody. The newborn that was just born, is now in limbo, to wait for Judge Walthers on Tuesday to make the decision on whether he/she can return home.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Flora is reporting that retribution will be in store for the kids, if they are returned home. The kids will be punished for speaking out, more beatings, abuse... These kids will suffer when returned. Flora Jessops, mother has been missing for years because of the work that Flora is doing. They did something with her, when Flora started to speak out against the FLDS.

 

[Pepper]

I notice that in the article it mentions "three couples" are receiving custody of their children. I wonder if this means that these three "couples" are not practicing polygamy? Could this be the reason they, and not others, are getting their children?

 

[mykodiak]

It could be that these were among the few couples that had their own "home" and did not live in the dormitories.

Under the agreement, the families cannot return to the Yearning For Zion ranch, where they lived before the raid.

So, they will have to stay in a location where CPS will not have a problem gaining easy access. I wonder how long they can bar them from moving back?

 

[Trino]

I think these families probably WILL practice pologamy if they don't now. Maybe it's just that the daddy hasn't been assigned another wife yet.

I wonder if the outside world has influenced the children in a positive way. Just an add on, I have little sympathy for the mothers who tolerate this lifestyle for themselves and their children. In their hearts they must question their surroundings and know this isn't right.

 

[ThoughtFox]

I think these families probably WILL practice pologamy if they don't now. Maybe it's just that the daddy hasn't been assigned another wife yet.

I wonder if the outside world has influenced the children in a positive way. Just and add on, I have little sympathy for the mothers who tolerate this lifestyle for themselves and their children. In their hearts they must question their surroundings and know this isn't right.

I agree.

It's great that some of you like this new ruling, but nothing has addressed those ceremonial beds they found inside the church, which prompted the removal of the kids in the first place.

I believe those mothers love their children. I also see those women as dominated by religious leaders and and out of control of their own lives. The guy representing the cult last night on Larry King said he didn't understand why polygamy is wrong in the U.S. so of course they are practicing polygamy and will continue to break the law.

These folks aren't suddenly "reformed" because they got into one tussle with the law - they know exactly what laws they are breaking and why they have to stay quiet. They also believe teenage girls should all be pregnant as early as possible and that is child abuse - those girls don't have a choice. Those women had a choice and now they want to go back home and keep this lifestyle.

So be it, but they live in the U.S. and they have to follow the laws, some of which are there to protect children even from abusive or just plain crazy parents.