AR AR - Whitehall Motel in El Dorado, WhtFem, 81UFAR, 18-21, Jul'91 - #2 - Kelly from VA

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I read through this whole thread (the first one too) last night and have become very intrigued with this case. One thing that keeps popping into my mind is the scar under her left breast...so I did a little google work.

Possible Reasons for the Scar

Mitral valve replacement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitral_valve_replacement

"The preferred method is to first make an incision under the left breast rather than through the breastbone in the front of the chest, to get to the heart."

This next one is a blurb from the distinguishing characteristics of another missing girl (obviously not AR Jane as this girl went missing in 2008) but notice the bit about the scar.

www.lbth.org/ncma/gallery/poster/makeposter.php?A200905727S

"small scar under left breast from a tube insertion as an infant"

Another thing I found was people with scars from having cysts removed from their breasts (scar location obviously depends on location of cyst). I also found that breast enlargements and breast reductions will cause scarring under the breast...but you would assume it would be under both breasts.

I also assume that the ME would have known from autopsy if there was any type of heart surgery or breast augmentation. Also, I'm wondering if the scar is actually ON the underneath of her breast or under her breast but actually ON the upper abdomen in the area of the bottom of the rib cage.

Anyway, not sure any of this info would help but I wanted to put it out there.

Something about this girl makes me think she came from a fairly middle class background before entering the life we have known her to have. The fact that she had dental work done is one of the main reasons I think this. Dental work is not cheap (even the most basic stuff like cleanings), especially if you don't have insurance. Of course she could have paid for the work herself after leaving "home" and then my theory would be moot. And of course, if the scar is from any type of serious medical surgery (aside from breast augmentation) it tells me she had a "family" once upon a time who cared enough, and had the means, to get her proper medical attention. JMO.

Good day all!! Off to do some more sleuthing...:seeya:
 
By the way...Christina Lynn Carter (above post) was in the 92 percentile growth chart.... meaning that there was a high probability of her being tall...and ironically her birthday is May 29
 
T4Tide said:
What about Ann Gotlib?

http://www.doenetwork.org/
Case File 68DFKY

Ann Gotlib
Missing since June 1, 1983 from Louisville, Jefferson County, Kentucky.
Classification: Non-Family Abduction

Vital Statistics

Date Of Birth: May 5, 1971
Age at Time of Disappearance: 12 years old
Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'1; 85 pounds
Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Red/auburn curly hair; gray eyes. Gotlib has a fair complexion and light-colored eyebrows.
Marks, Scars: She has freckles on her face and moles on her lower back. She also has pierced ears.
Clothing: Navy blue shorts with white stripes on the sides, a red and white t-shirt, beige tennis shoes and gold earrings with purple stones.
Dentals: Available

Circumstances of Disappearance
Police and the FBI think that Ann was kidnapped from Louisville's Bashford Manor Mall on June 1, 1983. Her red and white bicycle was found propped up outside a department store. She was last seen riding her bicycle back to her home nearby around 17:30 - 18:00. Police say there is no indication she was taken by a friend or associate. She has never been seen again. Ann is a Russian Jewish immigrant and came to USA in 1980. She speaks fluent Russian and English.


The first picture of Ann and the morgue photo was what appeared eerily similar to me. I would think that Ann was old enough when she disappeared that she would have told someone of her childhood or what happened to her, but you just never know.

Ann's height at her disappearance was only 5, 1... and it's unlikely that she grew another 10 inches over her adolescent years, but not impossible.

https://identifyus.org/medias/full/1910
Click to expand...

Also, this is probably not PC, but a lot of Russian women are very tall.

I know the estimates of Jane Doe's age are between 18 - 21, but she looks older to me. I guess this could have to do with her having a difficult life.
 
I think she looks a lot like Cathleen Marie Martin
www.doenetwork.org/cases/1013dfnj.html - the eyes, mouth, everything. But the ages would be off a bit. What does everyone else thing?

The above youtube video is heartbreaking.
 
I simply have to conclude that the missing person who is this UID is just not in the national databases for whatever reason and unless and until she is added, we are not going to find her.

what is odd is that they have her fingerprints so you would assume (with all the pitfalls that go along with assuming anything) that she would have matched prior arrest records. even if she used different aliases each time, (which may be the source of the known aliases, although they may have come from places she worked), there should be some sort of composite available for her likely age, etc. personally I think she looks older than 21 which is stated in the Doe Network profile as being the upper end of the range.

I was analyzing her use of aliases and two things struck me. one is her fixation with cars - Carr, Karr and Mercedes and a preference for a surname beginning with W. my take on that is either she just thought it was cute or it actually had something to do with her real birthname. so she may have had a first or last name that started with Car--- or she had a last name that started with Car--- or was phonetically similar to Wicks. Also she could have had a last name like Ford which is a make of a vehicle or had a last name that meant some sort of vehicle in another language.

in any event, I looked through Namus for people of her demographic (height, eye color and age up to 30, and even shaving off a few inches on the low side in case she grew a few after she ran off) and I'm not coming up with any names that remotely fit my naming scheme, except one. that girl was Jennifer Wictor missing from AZ in 1988.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2994dfaz.html

Wictor, however is might lighter in weight than the UID and I don't see much if any facial similarity.
 
laini said:
I think she looks a lot like Cathleen Marie Martin
www.doenetwork.org/cases/1013dfnj.html - the eyes, mouth, everything. But the ages would be off a bit. What does everyone else thing?

The above youtube video is heartbreaking.
Click to expand...

Laini,

The Martin girl is too old to be this doe. She does have the right kind of looks, but I wouldn't submit it due to the age difference.
 
Well is anyone ready for something off the wall? If not, that's too bad because I'm going to subject everyone to this totally weird idea.

I ran across a woman who disappeared back in 1959, leaving a husband and four daughters in central Texas. Minnie Marie Heine Conrad. Both she and her husband were 2nd. or third generation over from Prussia (at one time, the largest state in Germany), now defunct. To me, this doe looks like Minnie, plus the hair color is right, and the height is in line for this doe to be one of Minnie's daughters, possibly her youngest.

Our doe here was arrested in Houston, Dallas, Shreveport, and Little Rock IIRC. Now Minnie was last seen in the hospital in Galveston in 1960. Is it possible our doe is her daughter, and this doe was trying to track her mother's whereabouts? Told you it was an off the wall idea. Like I said, there used to be a Carousel Club in Houston off the Gulf Freeway S-I-45.

Here's Minnie's info:

Minnie Marie Heine Conrad
Missing since 1958/1959 from Meridian, Bosque County, Texas.
Classification: Missing

Vital Statistics

* Date Of Birth: March 20, 1924
* Age at Time of Disappearance: Circa 34 years old
* Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 6'0"; 170 lbs.
* Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Auburn/reddish brown hair. Big-boned.

Circumstances of Disappearance
Conrad disappeared around 1958 from Meridian, Texas, where she appeared to have walked away leaving four daughters and a husband. It was discovered she had been in the University of Texas Medical Center, in Galveston, from July 18-30, 1960. She has not been heard from since.

Contact
If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:

Linda Dodson
Contact for the family
----------------------------
I've included pictures of both women extracted from The Doe Network.org. These women's jaws, face shape, lips, hairline, eyebrows all match. The only thing that differs is the nasal structure.

I know the possibility is remote, but darn if they don't look very similar to me. If you can enlarge the photos it really helps to see the similarities.

Is it worth trying to find out more about Minnie? Appreciate any input!
jt
 

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I meant to put up 3 photos, and forgot the third so here are the two that startled me, and made me consider the possibility if remote. Again, it's a long shot, but sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
The lips on these two women are identical. I think they look like mother and daughter. JMO.
 

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justthinkin said:
Laini,

The Martin girl is too old to be this doe. She does have the right kind of looks, but I wouldn't submit it due to the age difference.
Click to expand...

Everyone please ignore the above post of mine. I made an error in reading. Mistook the date of birth for when the Martin girl went missing. She is not too old.

Webrocket is right, it is her height and weight that don't fit. However, we are talking about a doe and a missing person who haven't been ID-ed or found in 20 years so if you think it's worth a submission go ahead, even if the height is off by 3 inches.

You can bring that point up in your submission, and then let the LEOs decide if they want to check it out or not. You can wait to hear more input from others.

One thing I noticed was Martin's long, thin fingers. They seem to resemble the fingers of this doe to me in the one photo of El Dorado Doe that shows her touching her face with her fingers. Still, I don't believe the Martin girl is El Dorado Doe, and can't express clearly why I think that.
jt

.
 
I will have the opportunity, very shortly, to be in the Dallas area for a week or so, and intend to drop by Boyd's Studio in Wylie.

El Dorado Doe had in her possession a brochure from Boyd's Recording Studio at 103 N. Ballard, however, Boyd's is located at 103 S. Ballard. I'll be looking into the discrepancy to find out if Boyd's was ever at the N. Ballard location or if they once had brochures that were accidentally printed with the wrong address, and the time frame for when such a mistake might have occurred.

Hopefully, the owner will remember this 5'11" girl. I would presume he or she has been questioned about her in the past.

I also plan to go through Wylie High School's yearbooks to see if by chance she attended school there.

If anyone has additional ideas you think I should pursue while there, now is the time to come up with a list.
 
justthinkin said:
Hopefully, the owner will remember this 5'11" girl. I would presume he or she has been questioned about her in the past.

I also plan to go through Wylie High School's yearbooks to see if by chance she attended school there.

If anyone has additional ideas you think I should pursue while there, now is the time to come up with a list.
Click to expand...

thanks for your efforts. it has been 20 years so I'd be shocked if they remember the woman. they might, however, remember if LE came knocking on their door.
 
Thanks, webrocket! Yep, the owner might only remember if some LEOs came knocking on his door, and inquired, but even that too, could be forgotten by now. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that he or she does remember. Can you think of what else I might pursue while there besides checking to see if there ever was a second Carousel Club in operation in Dallas, and its location if it did exist?
jt

p.s. Did you happen to blow up that second set of shots of Minnie and this doe, and if so, what do you think? I've already said, I thought it was a long shot, but the commonalities of the physical features of these two women astound me.
 
Ah, reread thread 1. This doe did not work at a place called the Carousel Club, she worked out of a motel in Dallas on Forest Lane in Garland, called The Carousel Motel.

I am inclined to think this doe and Roy McAlphin/McAlpin were grifters or just plain crooks. I think a lot of honest and hardworking people wouldn't want to lay claim to a relative like that if the person turned up deceased. They might figure it was par for the course, and had been scarred from interactions with such a person. It's a lot harder to lose relatives who continue to think of you in terms of a patsy until the well really and truly runs dry.

Something is off. She looks too nice, too clean cut, her clothes too tailored, too buttoned up to be working in a sleazy joint like the Carousel Motel. Maybe it's not what I think it is. I'll have to drive by there, and try to imagine what the place looked like 20 years ago. I grew up in Dallas, been to Garland too many times to count, blue collar area when I lived in Dallas. Have never laid eyes on or heard of the Carousel Motel that I can remember. This doe looks more like someone from an escort service or a higher priced prostitute, not a street walker. She looks like a business person in that one photo, someone who might work in a nice office building. Bingo, maybe she and McAlpin were rolling businessmen for a living, taking photos with nasty little threats of contacting a man's wife. I see this girl as cagey, street wise, smarter than the average Jill, but also maybe plays dumb and innocent when needed as a cover. Even her diary rings false to me.

She worked at KFC in Dallas at one time according to info Madeabecbec had. HUH? KFC, this girl? No way, unless it was her first job ever.

If the Doe and Roy were grifters, I think it would be safe to assume they never entertained her mother and sister from Florida.

No, I would think they'd tell LE they were one place when they were really in another. Florida looks like a cover to me.

Growing up in Dallas, common out-of-town places mentioned were Little Rock, Hot Springs, Shreveport, Oklahoma City, Lubbock, Galveston, Baton Rouge, and New Orleans. I heard about those places on a somewhat regular basis. I also remember going with friends, and driving around Harry Hines Circle about 50 times in a row. It was silly and stupid, but then we were silly and stupid teenagers with nothing better to do. Never mind that at one time it was considered the most dangerous interchange in Dallas. This Doe at one time lived on Harry Hines Blvd., but I'd have to go back to her arrest record in the first thread to see the address.

I feel comfortable in placing this doe's age range at 30-35 in 1991, after comparing women's ages on Google Images. Her clothing choice speaks to that as well, IMO. Her earrings look like clips. No self respecting girl born in the 1970s would be caught out in public in mom's jewelry, but that's exactly the kind of jewelry this doe wore. Again, the jewelry dates her.

One last thing, the restaurant menus. I'm going to guess she didn't work at them, but visited them while on a vacation in Virginia Beach with someone special to her. Maybe this McAlphin character took her there shortly after they first met. The menus were souvenirs. So was the brochure from Boyd's. Well at least that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it for now.
 
I'm gonna agree with you on this one, justthinkin - I also grew up in D/FW and was 18 in 1991. This girl does have that distinct Dallas look, and looks older than 18-24, imo. (Unless maybe she had lived hard and appeared older than her stated age). She does appear pampered to an extent - she doesn't even look too rough in the shots where she's not made up. We used to joke that we "worked out on Harry Hines" as teenagers (alluding to prostitution) and thought we were hilarious. I can't believe that you were out driving around there - teenagers are so strange!
 
annemc2 said:
I'm gonna agree with you on this one, justthinkin - I also grew up in D/FW and was 18 in 1991. This girl does have that distinct Dallas look, and looks older than 18-24, imo. (Unless maybe she had lived hard and appeared older than her stated age). She does appear pampered to an extent - she doesn't even look too rough in the shots where she's not made up. We used to joke that we "worked out on Harry Hines" as teenagers (alluding to prostitution) and thought we were hilarious. I can't believe that you were out driving around there - teenagers are so strange!
Click to expand...

annemc2,

Finallly, someone who understands that Dallas women are different. There is indeed, a specificity about it that's hard to put into words, but if you've lived it you can sense it when you go elsewhere, and come back to Dallas.

LOL, it was more years than I care to admit to back when I participated in such an asinine activity. I'm talking mid 1960s. Dallas was different then as was every place else in the US.

I wore that same kind of jewelry back then, and still do today.

I'm going up to Dallas to help my DDIL with running their household for the week after she has knee surgery.

I intend to check out the Carousel, Boyd's, and the Wylie high school annuals, and see if I have time for anything else.
 
Way to go justthinkin, it's great that you've taken an interest in identifying this young lady. :applause:
 
Danaya said:
Way to go justthinkin, it's great that you've taken an interest in identifying this young lady. :applause:
Click to expand...

I second that expression of appreciation!
 
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