Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias
- Thread starter nursebeeme
- Start date
- Status
Whisperer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2008
- Messages
- 17,542
- Reaction score
- 64
:welcome: to our group ron351ne
Whisperer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2008
- Messages
- 17,542
- Reaction score
- 64
This type plays everybody. She will play the male and female guards anyway she can...just like casey anthony did.
She will play inmates too....only the ones that won't kill her though. These types have really good radar when it comes to self preservation.
Whisperer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2008
- Messages
- 17,542
- Reaction score
- 64
I suspect she had his new camera and this infuriated him. He may have thought she was on the road. OTOH, I can't rule out she also had a knife or gun pointed at him...but I will assume just the camera for now (subject to change). I have not followed the story...just started when she took the stand.
I recall her saying on the stand that he got up (in the shower) and lunged at her. Of course she caught herself and then said he stepped out of the shower...grr. He was either ducking something or was hit by something. At this point he lunged at her. He may have caused the finger injury to her at this point. That is what forced her to drop the camera. I think that is what made the sound when it hit the floor.
We certainly know she had HIS camera. He was certainly surprised and really pizzed at her by now if he thought she had left. Anyone would and anyone would certainly by yelling profanites. Heck she could have had the gun in her pocket and just the knife in her hand. She felt justified in killing him for he had called her names. Travis didnt have a chance. He was naked and didn't have a weapon. She was in total control and enjoyed every minute of it at the time.
She really thought he would, at least, let her stay at his home while he was in Cancun but dollars to donuts, he denied that request. Her ego suffered too much injury and she decided to do what she thought she may have to do some time if he didn't comply with allowing her to live there for the week. She was tired of using up all her sexual energy on him and he was not continuing to share his home with her. Of course, she felt demeaned. Look at all the effort she spent trying to get him to be unable to ever bed another woman.
When he was fighting for his life, I am sure she can imagine self defense because if he was able to get access to one of those weapons, he would have killed her...and that is how she is portraying it. She keeps forgetting he was naked at the time....and that's a big problem for her.
She was taunting him with that camera while he was showering. HE had no idea wth she was doing with it. He may have thought she was going to take it. He had to be furious when he saw her with it. Did he lung for it and grab her hand, twisting it, causing her to drop it?
I recall her saying on the stand that he got up (in the shower) and lunged at her. Of course she caught herself and then said he stepped out of the shower...grr. He was either ducking something or was hit by something. At this point he lunged at her. He may have caused the finger injury to her at this point. That is what forced her to drop the camera. I think that is what made the sound when it hit the floor.
We certainly know she had HIS camera. He was certainly surprised and really pizzed at her by now if he thought she had left. Anyone would and anyone would certainly by yelling profanites. Heck she could have had the gun in her pocket and just the knife in her hand. She felt justified in killing him for he had called her names. Travis didnt have a chance. He was naked and didn't have a weapon. She was in total control and enjoyed every minute of it at the time.
She really thought he would, at least, let her stay at his home while he was in Cancun but dollars to donuts, he denied that request. Her ego suffered too much injury and she decided to do what she thought she may have to do some time if he didn't comply with allowing her to live there for the week. She was tired of using up all her sexual energy on him and he was not continuing to share his home with her. Of course, she felt demeaned. Look at all the effort she spent trying to get him to be unable to ever bed another woman.
When he was fighting for his life, I am sure she can imagine self defense because if he was able to get access to one of those weapons, he would have killed her...and that is how she is portraying it. She keeps forgetting he was naked at the time....and that's a big problem for her.
She was taunting him with that camera while he was showering. HE had no idea wth she was doing with it. He may have thought she was going to take it. He had to be furious when he saw her with it. Did he lung for it and grab her hand, twisting it, causing her to drop it?
I believe she is a calculating psychopath and he never saw it coming.
She went there to kill him unless she could convince him to care about her again. This didn't happen so the plan to kill him went forward. She always compares movies to her life and I think she chose and applied the movie "Psycho" to this one. She deceived him to believe it was all innocent and when he was in his most vunerable state she attacked.
Why I say experts should check the image in Travis's eye(s) is because it may show something. I enlarged the (r) eye image and it looks like it would be possible to make something out of it with the right equipment? Thanks Whisperer for the comment and the welcome!
I really don't know the answer to either of your questions, but I do know that there is a reflection there! Thanks for the comment!
Whisperer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2008
- Messages
- 17,542
- Reaction score
- 64
We always tend to think the lawyers check out everything....but now you have me wondering. What if they hadn't checked your angle out? We have some very smart WSers. Two found info in the Casey A case when they checked the computer files.
Wow! a reflection in the eye....amazing..
Wow! a reflection in the eye....amazing..
I am new to WS and hope this question is allowed. Do defense attorneys find it difficult to defend the likes of CA or JA. Surely they realize the clients quilt and the depravity Of the psychy. Would they be haunted by these cases? Hope this is okay to use this thread for my question. Much thanks
writer7
New Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2010
- Messages
- 1,023
- Reaction score
- 27
I think the borderline catch was still a good one. A psychopath as cunning as JA would normally do better against Juan. I think the borderline component of her personality is what gives her that extra noticeable 'fire' and need to show that she's 'winning'. A pure psychopath would pull the con off better. Her borderline problem makes her get more overtly challenging when getting angered, imho.
Both kinds could get angry enough about Travis to do what she did, imho. It's strange and fascinating with her. The planning of the murder the way she did it is pure psychopathy, as is the having sex before the murder (a borderline-only person loves you or hates you, so sex would be out in a planned murder).
But a psychopath would con better during cross, so I do think her obviously-defiant brattiness is a sign of BPD, as is the extreme 'love' obsession with Travis and the kind of stalking she did, etc.
I think she's both, and it's fascinating and horrifying.
lil_buddy
Inactive
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,800
- Reaction score
- 8
To capture an image in an eye one needs IDEAL lighting and an extreme close-up of the eye. No, they will NEVER EVER recover the image of the murderer (JA) from TA'S pictures.
danzn16
For the missing
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2012
- Messages
- 3,667
- Reaction score
- 1,388
They feel everyone has the right to a fair trail and that's what they live by regardless of who their client ends up being. Beyond that I would love to hear what else they say
ATasteOfHoney
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 5,898
- Reaction score
- 236
Whisperer---that was a very interesting post and I hope you might give some details of the BPD's that you have encountered in specifics if you don't mind? I have often heard that psychologists/counselors/psychiatrists feel that the two most difficult patients to treat (and they dread dealing with them) are BPD's and pedophiles.
One of the easiest ways that I can tell that I've met a BPD is that you always feel that you are walking on eggshells when you are around them. When angered over the slightest thing, they start talking very fast and become louder and louder. They want to reprimand everyone in a very nasty way. Their emotions are like a raw, oozing sore on the top layers of their skin. The littlest perceived slights cause a complete overreaction. Then, there is frequently the "overlap/comorbidity" with the other Axis II Cluster B disorders that spring up at random with the BPD's which creates a smorgasboard of disaster!
As a small example that comes to my mind, I met a BPD (married to a millionaire) that carried on for 1/2 hr. over the fact that she had forgotten a store coupon for $5 at home and yet made a scene for the manager of the store to honor it anyway. He honored it rather than have this lunatic disrupting his businesss operation. Of course, she recanted the story to me (while raging) and that recant went on for an hour! :banghead: This same BPD woman also went on to tell me that her aesthetician who applies false eyelash extensions mentioned to her that her eyelid was twitching a bit. It didn't sound like a big deal to me but I had to hear about that remark at least 30 times! :banghead:
Those are just 2 little examples but you get the point.
Whisperer, could you share some specifics of the BPD's you've encountered?
Woe.be.gone
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2008
- Messages
- 13,022
- Reaction score
- 225
I'm trying to understand the idea of personal responsiblility/choices versus trickery; in other words, when is one complicit in the result of what happens at the end of each day in their life?
'Prozac Nation' was on Indie channel - I just finished watching it for the first time even though the movie is dated 2001. If anyone is familiar with the movie, what was the the diagnosis of the character who is based on the true story of the author of the book of the same title. What is the point exactly? That, as a society, parents' choices are f'g up their kids?
The character needed medicine to help her but mostly she needed something healed deep within her soul. Clearly she had become her own worst enemy and her emotions were all over the place and she had that thing where one blames everybody else but theirself for the outcome of their choices but their choices are a result of someone else too. Or is it all just a chemical imbalance? Also the movie highlights how women turn to men to try to solve/heal their problems. Usually men don't care until it inconveniences them in some way.
In other words, I'm trying to understand mental illness. Jodi said on the stand that she believes in the law of attraction so, with this in mind, she and Travis attracted one another because they had similar needs. They didn't seem to have personal boundaries or, in the case of Jodi, would not accept them or express them.
I'm having a problem accepting that Travis was so virginal while, at the same time, he could come up with so many perverse fantasies all the time claiming he was on a journey to become a more spiritual man. :waitasec: Based on my own experiences, it takes two to participate in whatever it is two are doing and sometimes a person says 'no'. So if it wasn't in him to be the way he was in the first place, how can we blame her for 'making' him that way? Was she willing? yes. Did she make him? no. Why was he so verbally abusive toward her versus firmly cutting off the relationship?
How do we recognize mental illness and sort it out from what is pure evil (which I believe exists) but also sort out what's what and who's who? A spiritual person can be tricked indeed but I believe they'd be in tune with blatent right from wrong indications. Like in regards to sexual conduct outside of marriage ~ one can't be an unpaid *advertiser censored* star and be a Morman at the same time. Is it mental illness when you can't reconcile those two concepts?
Their behavior together was too extreme for me to believe that T was who he claimed to be to the outside world versus who he was in his inner being. That person would have desired each and every friend to respect theirself. Wasn't he in fact leading a double life? Jodi was the seeker and T was claiming to be a leader. Who holds the most responsibility when thought of in these terms?
"It is better that you should not vow than you should vow and not pay." (Eccles. 5:5)
Woe.be.gone
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2008
- Messages
- 13,022
- Reaction score
- 225
This, in a nutshell, is what I'm trying to express. Based on who T said he was, he should never have been with J in the first place. You can't have your eggs and eat them too. This does not excuse that J killed T but there's a lesson here somewhere outside from that Jodi is a predator and that T was fooled by her ~ it's much more complicated than that.
As an example, the sicko who took Mickey Shunick off the street and killed her is a predator. Jodi's story isn't the same.
HMSHood
Admiral-Class Battlecruiser
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2011
- Messages
- 4,295
- Reaction score
- 2,914
I think Mrs. G Norris is right to raise Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). I have not paid much attention to Jodie Arias case. From what limited knowledge I have read, I would picture her similar to someone like Casey Anthony, Diane Downs, Lori Drew, or Ashley Longe (South Hadley 6). I also suspect that Arias, like Anthony, Downs, Drew, and Longe have BPD. Like Arias, they are highly sociable and extroverted and have a pathological need to be around people. They are highly deceptive in nature and use deception. At the same time, they are highly volatile and get angry easily. They will be happy one moment and the next moment they are angry. They often feel victimized by other people, which I have seen in Arias, Anthony, Drew, and Longe. Arias is emotionally stunted and immature, which characterizes someone with BPD.
Borderline Personality Traits Seen In Others (Bold Indicates Characteristics)
Casey Anthony
- Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. [Not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5]
- A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
- Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
- Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, promiscuous sex, eating disorders, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). [Again, not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5]
- Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
- Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
- Chronic feelings of emptiness.
- Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
- Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.
Diane Downs
- Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. [Not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5]
- A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
- Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
- Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, promiscuous sex, eating disorders, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). [Again, not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5]
- Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
- Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
- Chronic feelings of emptiness.
- Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
- Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.
Lori Drew
- Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. [Not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5]
- A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
- Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
- Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, promiscuous sex, eating disorders, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). [Again, not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5]
- Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
- Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
- Chronic feelings of emptiness.
- Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
- Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.
Ashley Longe
- Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. [Not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5]
- A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
- Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
- Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, promiscuous sex, eating disorders, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). [Again, not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5]
- Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
- Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
- Chronic feelings of emptiness.
- Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
- Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.
Since BPD invariably occurs with other mental illness and personality disorders, chances are she will likely have other personality disorders like Histrionic and Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Just my thought.
Woe.be.gone
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2008
- Messages
- 13,022
- Reaction score
- 225
:seeyao you believe that she was simply a pleaser? I think there is more to it than that.
He turned on her when he woke up and found her in his email, calling and texting him endlessly, taping his calls, slashing his tires and his GF's tires, stalking him, entering his home univited and insisting he be at her beck and call FOREVER. She was probably caught in countless lies.
He got tired of her despite their sexual escapades and wanted her out of his life. The name calling comes out of frustration. Men do it alot. He was sooooo tired of her. She degraded herself, because she didn't see it, he pointed it out. Because he shared his fantasies (and believed it was private), he paid the ultimate price.
Watch her answers and her demeanor, she is an arrogant evil sociopath. I find it difficult to imagine anyone supporting her but I know some will....they do not see or have never experience this sort of behavior. They may, naively, think evil doesnt exist or think that only men sre sexual deviants.
I don't know what to believe exactly. I'm trying to sort it out thus my questions and thoughts. I believe many women have the tendency to try to please others conditioned into them - that's why it's so hard for many women to say 'no'. But in J's case, it may very well be more than that as I realize she's saying things in hopes the jury with feel sympathetic toward her. I'm weighing all the behavior and evidence. He wrote the emails and answered her texts, etc. He participated and in return he pulled her in more thus giving her what she wanted. He needed to truly cut her off a long time before he did and needed to be clear that he was doing so. Even one of his friend's asked him 'aren't you afraid she'll retaliate when you talk to her like that'. She wanted him in her life and he kept hope alive by dangling her or something. Where do we draw line for our own culpability for our own behavior and how it infuences our lives?
I can't understand why he kept letting her back in, why they were exchanging vehicles and why he kept laying down with her. If someone slashed my tires, that would be it - period. At that point, they are my enemy. Name calling doesn't fix anything - only justifies the 'bad guy' behavior of the other person in their own mind. T should have called the police for the way you describe what he was going through in relation to J's behavior.
For the most part, I try to analyse situations through a woman's viewpoint.
It's true, I cannot recognize an evil sociopath from afar and am unable to diagnose anybody. I believe a woman can be a sexual deviant as can a man but believe that the sought after partner has a choice when it comes to participating (unless being held against their will).
Cases aren't interesting to me unless we can examine both sides of the coin so to speak. What's done is done and wasn't my fault, or yours. For me to post angry posts one after another about a perp or victim doesn't interest me and like the phone call from the person who always makes one angry or sad, is how cases that only lambast make me feel after I log out. I know these crimes make people angry and are terrible examples of what people are capable of - I'm interested in inderstanding more about why they ever occur in the first place.
writer7
New Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2010
- Messages
- 1,023
- Reaction score
- 27
Woe be gone, I do think Travis was a flawed human being at the time, definitely. He was just nowhere near the likes of JA. One is a murderer and the other a hypocrite/fake. It's harsh for me to call Travis a fake, because I do think he was conflicted about what he was doing and reconciling it with his chosen faith. I'm trying to be as fair to JA as humanly possible by calling him the harshest version of my thoughts
But his sexual proclivities aren't particularly unusual in his age group. As far as Mormonism goes, I've heard some of them say 'be moral, go oral'. I'm only saying that to try to get perspective on how Travis rationalized his decisions on sex. I know that in my personal life as an unmarried 30-year-old, I rationalized past what my religion says about extramarital sex! (I think it's a very old book in my religion's case ). It is possible to want to honor all of the kindness and love parts of a religion while disagreeing or being conflicted on what each sin is or how bad it is.
He sounded truly more conflicted than that. He struggled with this 'sin', and Mormons sound like they understand that in their midst and have counseling, etc. He was getting there.
As far as whether the relationship should have hurt JA, it really sounds like they had an understanding. When they were dating they didn't discuss the sex with others because it's private (and it's a sin to Mormons, sure). When they had moved on to being friends with benefits, that's the sort of relationship nobody announces. It's more common than ever in today's world. A lot of folks are exes who do that; they aren't going towards marriage for known reasons, but they still want to be friends and see each other (sexually). We don't have to agree with it, but I think it's important that it's not uncommon to hear about nowadays.
I think Travis had free will on the sex stuff, but I think he had had too few relationships to know why these 'modern' sexual relationships aren't for the inexperienced. He was taking on a relationship that is best reserved for very busy middle-aged divorcees with kids, imho Reserved for someone who has clear judgment about their choice of partner and that partner's motivations and feelings. I think Travis was too inexperienced to see what an incredibly bad idea it was to try to do 'exes with benefits' with JA!
It wasn't a perfect storm. JA would have caused unbelievable pain to anyone who slighted her once she found someone she felt was worthy of marriage and kids. Travis was particularly inexperienced, though, so it shows that he didn't see her coming as well as more experienced folks would. I don't think that matters, though. She was going to make him pay whether he cut her off perfectly or whether he bumbled that part
I think him being very mean to her was an attempt to get her away from him, btw. I don't think he's into that in a non-crazy situation.
I threw my small water bottle at a borderline person in an attempt to get them to just LEAVE my office, as an example. I don't throw things at people! I had a huge, permanent-record important project to finish, and the person was trying to screw up my career. After 45 minutes of not playing games and calmly telling the person they had no right to be there and to please just leave, I lost it. They push you past the edge, really. (Calling the cops would have resulted in worse unproductive drama and time lost that important day).
I'm not the least bit surprised Travis said some mean things to JA.
eta: the person was a relative, btw, not a client or anything, lol!
But his sexual proclivities aren't particularly unusual in his age group. As far as Mormonism goes, I've heard some of them say 'be moral, go oral'. I'm only saying that to try to get perspective on how Travis rationalized his decisions on sex. I know that in my personal life as an unmarried 30-year-old, I rationalized past what my religion says about extramarital sex! (I think it's a very old book in my religion's case
). It is possible to want to honor all of the kindness and love parts of a religion while disagreeing or being conflicted on what each sin is or how bad it is. He sounded truly more conflicted than that. He struggled with this 'sin', and Mormons sound like they understand that in their midst and have counseling, etc. He was getting there.
As far as whether the relationship should have hurt JA, it really sounds like they had an understanding. When they were dating they didn't discuss the sex with others because it's private (and it's a sin to Mormons, sure). When they had moved on to being friends with benefits, that's the sort of relationship nobody announces. It's more common than ever in today's world. A lot of folks are exes who do that; they aren't going towards marriage for known reasons, but they still want to be friends and see each other (sexually). We don't have to agree with it, but I think it's important that it's not uncommon to hear about nowadays.
I think Travis had free will on the sex stuff, but I think he had had too few relationships to know why these 'modern' sexual relationships aren't for the inexperienced. He was taking on a relationship that is best reserved for very busy middle-aged divorcees with kids, imho
Reserved for someone who has clear judgment about their choice of partner and that partner's motivations and feelings. I think Travis was too inexperienced to see what an incredibly bad idea it was to try to do 'exes with benefits' with JA!It wasn't a perfect storm. JA would have caused unbelievable pain to anyone who slighted her once she found someone she felt was worthy of marriage and kids. Travis was particularly inexperienced, though, so it shows that he didn't see her coming as well as more experienced folks would. I don't think that matters, though. She was going to make him pay whether he cut her off perfectly or whether he bumbled that part
I think him being very mean to her was an attempt to get her away from him, btw. I don't think he's into that in a non-crazy situation.
I threw my small water bottle at a borderline person in an attempt to get them to just LEAVE my office, as an example. I don't throw things at people! I had a huge, permanent-record important project to finish, and the person was trying to screw up my career. After 45 minutes of not playing games and calmly telling the person they had no right to be there and to please just leave, I lost it. They push you past the edge, really. (Calling the cops would have resulted in worse unproductive drama and time lost that important day).
I'm not the least bit surprised Travis said some mean things to JA.
eta: the person was a relative, btw, not a client or anything, lol!
- Status