Australia Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #10

[Tangled_Web]

I do not believe that VG being BE stepdaughter was actually living fulltime at Acton St BE property at time of his arrest. Her FB page detailed a current employment position in Geraldton region. Given arrest of BE occurring within a couple of days of Christmas more likely she was visiting.

I think it is correct that she was not living there, but visiting. I recall reading very soon after the arrest that she did not live there but still stayed on occasion.

I also note that BE's one remaining FB friend has changed her name from VG to VR.

 

[Moustachio]

She has changed her surname on FB, and the 'P' plate car has gone. I don't think she's living there.

I dont think VG would still be living with him if his ex wife had reported. Doubt CGE would still have him on her fb as her cover pic either but who knows.
Other family members seem unlikely too after all these years,unless he finally said one too many worrying things.

I'm actually lost why step daughter is still living there. Maybe closer to work or just childhood home and doesnt want to leave. I'd assume the break up wasnt too awful if VG is still living there .

Maybe BE didnt reoffend just due to her still being there or the separation being a mutual decision.


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[AgathasCat]

I'm sure he was already a suspect from 1988 and they just made the connection this way...work, vehicles owned, where he was living and with whom and just built up a profile/case this way....

And they believed they had managed to obtain a DNAprofile of the killer from the body of Glennon. In an astonishing development,they matched this to the Karrakatta rape in 1995.

The person they were looking for, they decided, drove a late-model mid-1990swhite Holden Commodore VS Series in the mid-1990s. They had his DNA but theydid not know who he was.

Quote is from The Australian article, The quiet techie life of the Claremont murder accused. (After certain number of visits there is a paywall.)

Media have stated elsewhere that the accused was not known to them (to WAPOL).Is there any reason to believe this is a lie?

 

[potr]

If BRE was to plead not guilty to the 1997 murder of CG,
I can envisage that one of his line's of defence will be to refer to The Post Newspaper article 2001/09/01 "We know the Claremont Killer" posted in this forum about 6 months ago
https://www.dropbox.com/s/14fibheszgqgtl2/We know the Claremont killer.pdf?dl=0 (I've copied parts of this article below)

With Frank Silas and friends (if still alive) to be called as witnesses.
With the ex-workmate (+female partner) that Frank Silas reported to police, and that the Police reportedly, and belatedly investigated, to be drawn into the case.



The apparent lack of media referral to anything to do with Frank Silas, the CARK or this 2001 article, raises questions about the potential for a massive coverup of something about this case, and will do nothing to allay any suspicions or rumours of BRE potentially being falsely accused of some of the charges that have already been laid.

Apparently, Debbie Marshall's book "The Devils Garden" refers to Frank Silas and CARK on p192 (I'll report back on what Devil's Garden says about this after I get around to purchasing it).

Assuming the reports are bona fide, it appears that there was a suspect with no Alibi, that was not followed up on until after the physical remnants of a potential fight with CG on the night of her disappearance would have long gone.

Wonder whether Silas or other members of CARK are still alive, and if not, what happened to them before or after this 2001 article?

Any theories on why any of the CARK reported story might not be true and why?

Anyone know any more about CARK and it's members?

this is a summary of the 2 pages that make up chapter 50 in debi's book (page 192 and 193) I am not sure if it is revisited, its been a looooong time since i read it.

• after the 3 disappearances more than 12 people are repeatedly nominated.
• 3 men concerned that their claims were not being taken seriously called a press conference
• frank silas claimed the man had worked until 10pm the night of Ciara Glennon's abduction, carried a knife and had pointed it at him...plus the other details you have already noted. in addition he had been sacked for assaulting a female co-worker..he was apparently later re-employed
• frank silas said he had first seen him weeks before (and before he started working with him) and that the man and his girlfriend (at around 2 am)offered lifts to young women waiting in the taxi rank in claremont
• frank silas said he was also offered a lift and accepted, in the car the man talked about going bush to a dope crop, and he left the vehicle soon after.
• he named the man (not named by debi) and said he concluded that the man and his girlfriend had worked as a team.
• he made his suspicions known days after ciara was found, but was not interviewd until about 8 months after.
• he had apparently spent 4 years trying to obtain the attention of the powers that be including various police officers, the commissioner and minister and showed much correspondence of his claims (some of it accusing the police of ineptitude) and police
responses including defending the qualities and qualifications required of their detectives

• apparently caporn later responded to media requests, talking of the enormous efforts the police had gone to to placate mr silas
• he further stated sarcastically that he felt sorry for mr silas, because the issue was "taking a large space in his life"
• another person after mr silas had threatened to publish details about the man "because we wouldn't arrest this person for the claremont murders"

• macro insider reported that these types of interactions irked caporn using the metaphor: "he was busy enough putting out fires that existed, let alone ones that arsonists had started just so they could watch them burn".

let me kow if there are any other parts of interest.

 

[JoeDetective]

If the kimono was linked to a murder in victoria park, does that mean we could be seeing more charges in the future regarding other potential crimes he did? I'm interested to see where this goes.

If these charges don't stick I have little doubt WAPOL will have another crack at him on other cases at some point.
I suspect if these charges do stick they may not spend the money on the other cases.

Keep in mind this case is going to cost millions.

 

[CP345]

this is a summary of the 2 pages that make up chapter 50 in debi's book (page 192 and 193) I am not sure if it is revisited, its been a looooong time since i read it.

• after the 3 disappearances more than 12 people are repeatedly nominated.
• 3 men concerned that their claims were not being taken seriously called a press conference
• frank silas claimed the man had worked until 10pm the night of Ciara Glennon's abduction, carried a knife and had pointed it at him...plus the other details you have already noted. in addition he had been sacked for assaulting a female co-worker..he was apparently later re-employed
• frank silas said he had first seen him weeks before (and before he started working with him) and that the man and his girlfriend (at around 2 am)offered lifts to young women waiting in the taxi rank in claremont
• frank silas said he was also offered a lift and accepted, in the car the man talked about going bush to a dope crop, and he left the vehicle soon after.
• he named the man (not named by debi) and said he concluded that the man and his girlfriend had worked as a team.
• he made his suspicions known days after ciara was found, but was not interviewd until about 8 months after.
• he had apparently spent 4 years trying to obtain the attention of the powers that be including various police officers, the commissioner and minister and showed much correspondence of his claims (some of it accusing the police of ineptitude) and police
responses including defending the qualities and qualifications required of their detectives

• apparently caporn later responded to media requests, talking of the enormous efforts the police had gone to to placate mr silas
• he further stated sarcastically that he felt sorry for mr silas, because the issue was "taking a large space in his life"
• another person after mr silas had threatened to publish details about the man "because we wouldn't arrest this person for the claremont murders"

• macro insider reported that these types of interactions irked caporn using the metaphor: "he was busy enough putting out fires that existed, let alone ones that arsonists had started just so they could watch them burn".

let me kow if there are any other parts of interest.

Well a poster on the big footy forum thought he had a dead cert as well and claimed he was ignored. Honestly there's a few loose cannons who for some reason want to claim they know who the killer is and were ignored by police.

 

[Psychsleuth]

I have always been interested in this case as I am a psych with a specific interest in crime. Until now my interest has been purely professional curiosity. But reading about the Huntingdale attempted rape triggered a memory from my childhood that made me feel sick. I went to Gosnells senior high school in the late 1980s. I lived in Huntingdale in 1989 one street from BE and moved to Forest Lakes in late 1990 (I was 16). Not long after my family moved into our house in Forest Lakes I was awoken in the night by a sound outside me bedroom window. I remember being terrified and running to my parents room. My dad inspected outside and there were footprints outside my window. We didn't report it to the police and I had forgotten it until now. But I wonder whether he was stalking/hanging around girls bedroom windows in the area. I wonder how many were not reported?
I also wanted to comment that from a psychological perspective it is unlikely that an offender would switch between murder and rape with victims. There is usually a clear escalation and development in the level of sophistication and violence in crimes. This means that the Vic park murder is unlikely to have been committed by the same person as the Huntingdale attempted rape and the Karrakatta rape.

 

[JoeDetective]

It was strange when the Police denied the 'imminent arrest' rumours a couple of years ago. I remember reading comments from people on social media saying things like "What arrest? - We hadn't heard anything, until the Police told us!"

Who actually heard these rumours and from whom?
Actually didn't the media run it?

 

[JoeDetective]

I don't think they got DNA from a relative like this as it would certainly get back to him and spook him and I don't think the WAPOL would want that....I'm sure he was already a suspect from 1988 and they just made the connection this way...work, vehicles owned, where he was living and with whom and just built up a profile/case this way....

Certainly someone wanted the “familial DNA” story out there if its true or not, see the site odd sentence in the article from The Australian in previous threads.

Please don't rule out a familial hit was done prior to approaching BRE just to make sure they had their man. WAPOL can't afford any more bad press.

 

[potr]

I also wanted to comment that from a psychological perspective it is unlikely that an offender would switch between murder and rape with victims. There is usually a clear escalation and development in the level of sophistication and violence in crimes. This means that the Vic park murder is unlikely to have been committed by the same person as the Huntingdale attempted rape and the Karrakatta rape.

Gosh I am not absolutely sure about this so correct me if i am wrong but I thought that serial killers including Sutcliffe, Napper, cooke and Ridgeway had freqently either raped or murdered their victims...it all depended on the specific circumstances....Even though a rapist may progress to a killer they fequently indulge in an assortment of criminal acts in the same time frame. I think this is part of a diagnosis of Anti-social personality disorder. (the nearest thing in the DSM to psychopathy). Even Bendali Debs was at the same time as murdering women, robbing restaurants and shoplifting and possibly raping.

 

[jam sandwich]

And they believed they had managed to obtain a DNAprofile of the killer from the body of Glennon. In an astonishing development,they matched this to the Karrakatta rape in 1995.

The person they were looking for, they decided, drove a late-model mid-1990swhite Holden Commodore VS Series in the mid-1990s. They had his DNA but theydid not know who he was.

Quote is from The Australian article, The quiet techie life of the Claremont murder accused. (After certain number of visits there is a paywall.)

Media have stated elsewhere that the accused was not known to them (to WAPOL).Is there any reason to believe this is a lie?

No, I don't think he was known to WAPOL until they matched 1988 DNA with CG & KK. I'm sure BE was on a list of people of interest from 1988 and just did a more thorough investigation of all these people and ended up with BE after checking where he worked, cars he drove (Telstra issued VS Commodore Series 1), where he lived, relationship status and he ended up fitting the profile. Arrest and check DNA!

 

[JoeDetective]

If BRE was to plead not guilty to the 1997 murder of CG,
I can envisage that one of his line's of defence will be to refer to The Post Newspaper article 2001/09/01 "We know the Claremont Killer" posted in this forum about 6 months ago
https://www.dropbox.com/s/14fibheszgqgtl2/We know the Claremont killer.pdf?dl=0 (I've copied parts of this article below)

With Frank Silas and friends (if still alive) to be called as witnesses.
With the ex-workmate (+female partner) that Frank Silas reported to police, and that the Police reportedly, and belatedly investigated, to be drawn into the case.



The apparent lack of media referral to anything to do with Frank Silas, the CARK or this 2001 article, raises questions about the potential for a massive coverup of something about this case, and will do nothing to allay any suspicions or rumours of BRE potentially being falsely accused of some of the charges that have already been laid.

Apparently, Debbie Marshall's book "The Devils Garden" refers to Frank Silas and CARK on p192 (I'll report back on what Devil's Garden says about this after I get around to purchasing it).

Assuming the reports are bona fide, it appears that there was a suspect with no Alibi, that was not followed up on until after the physical remnants of a potential fight with CG on the night of her disappearance would have long gone.

Wonder whether Silas or other members of CARK are still alive, and if not, what happened to them before or after this 2001 article?

Any theories on why any of the CARK reported story might not be true and why?

Anyone know any more about CARK and it's members?

Jurys LOVE DNA, BRE better hope his wasn't on CG, otherwise he may be in a bit of strife.

 

[jam sandwich]

Certainly someone wanted the “familial DNA” story out there if its true or not, see the site odd sentence in the article from The Australian in previous threads.

Please don't rule out a familial hit was done prior to approaching BRE just to make sure they had their man. WAPOL can't afford any more bad press.

Haven't ruled it out but just not convinced. Too risky getting familial DNA from family member where it could get back to him. I know if anyone in my family gave a sample of anything to Police I would eventually hear about it through normal family discussions. They would not risk it as not to spook him in to doing something like disappearing or even committing suicide if he felt they were on to him. Just my opinion though.

 

[jam sandwich]

Gosh I am not absolutely sure about this so correct me if i am wrong but I thought that serial killers including Sutcliffe, Napper, cooke and Ridgeway had freqently either raped or murdered their victims...it all depended on the specific circumstances....Even though a rapist may progress to a killer they fequently indulge in an assortment of criminal acts in the same time frame. I think this is part of a diagnosis of Anti-social personality disorder. (the nearest thing in the DSM to psychopathy). Even Bendali Debs was at the same time as murdering women, robbing restaurants and shoplifting and possibly raping.

Once Sutcliffe was murdering he didn't alternate between any other crimes or switch between murder and rape....murder was his MO only

 

[JoeDetective]

Haven't ruled it out but just not convinced. Too risky getting familial DNA from family member where it could get back to him. I know if anyone in my family gave a sample of anything to Police I would eventually hear about it through normal family discussions. They would not risk it as not to spook him in to doing something like disappearing or even committing suicide if he felt they were on to him. Just my opinion though.

Not really if done covertly(which has been covered in previous threads)

 

[AgathasCat]

I'm inclined to believe the familial DNA discovery was akin to this example from a 2010 article Whodunit? in The Boston Globe and not chasing down family members for samples. A family member, a relatively innocuous crime (DUI?) and new developments in the DNA partial matching technology.

http://archive.boston.com/news/science/articles/2010/10/31/whodunit/

In one case, the technique had helped solve the murder of a 20-year-old Welsh woman, when, in 2003, 15 years after the crime, a search of the UK National DNA Database found a partial match between DNA collected at the crime scene and the genetic profile of a teenage boy who had provided a DNA sample when he was convicted of an unrelated offense. As with the Grim Sleeper’s son, the boy was too young to have committed the crime, but the information led investigators to the killer, his paternal uncle.

Then standard investigative work kicked in, leading them to BRE. Great article if you have time.

 

[jam sandwich]

Jurys LOVE DNA, BRE better hope his wasn't on CG, otherwise he may be in a bit of strife.

I think his DNA was found on CG hence the charge of murder

 

[catswhiskers]

I think his DNA was found on CG hence the charge of murder

I thought so too - the DNA on CG and the kimono were a match.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

I think they had all the evidence they needed before the DNA test. Familial DNA isn't well accepted in Australia. There is a real risk that the DNA will be excluded and, if it is, so too will be all of the evidence obtained as a result of the DNA test: "fruit of the poisoned tree" argument.

i wouldn't be at all surprised if DNA is excluded in the trial. Which makes me think that WAPOL had enough evidence to arrest him and the DNA test was just confirmation.

 

[jam sandwich]

Not really if done covertly(which has been covered in previous threads)

Do you have any ideas how they would do this and not to make it suspicious? You are not obliged to give a DNA sample without court order (I think) or they must request it from you.