Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sept 2014 - #19

[Bohemian]

Marking my spot...

Ditto.

 

[Puggle]

Why does whoever claim, the mother of the 2 abused girls had been tutoring and coaching them to say "It was Bill"? If a mother is described then for being obsessive and crazy - how can she save their children without being called that or similar? Only the perpetrators would do it, I think. If the mother also had accused other men, then there was an important reason perhaps? If the mother had 2 pedophiles to live with (BS and her own brother) and the two had "nice" friends like AJ or PB or ............. there are many more as we know ......, then why is it only a little bit surprising, that this woman had accused several men? Not to forget her life until be married to BS, but already with a brother of JH's caliber? Nobody knows, what terrible things she may have had experienced before her little daughters had become the target.
If a little 3yo child doesn't know what happened or later on had forgotten/repressed terrible things done to her, then from a psychological perspective it seems very normal, IMO. No reason for BS' defense to say, there never had happened abuse to her.
From any view, the pedophiles have seemingly an easy game before-during-after.

From Germany I sense the frustration in your post.......................firstly I don't believe for an instance that this person described as obsessive (the coacher) is for one minute the person who instigated the current charges against Bill Spedding....to be honest I think all the players were convinced by Police...based on Police suspicion to proceed with the case...there is no "outcome' motive that I can see from those individuals.

If we could find the evidence....I am sure it was the police who decided to act upon and arrest Bill on these historical accusations.....not the actual victims!!......and this was police game playing.....strategy!!!

A vindictive ex partner flying accusations against an ex partner to keep that partner away from her young children is somewhat understandable......BUT....27years later when those children are grown adults....27 years to have remained silent and cause no further grief ??

We have no idea of how she met her partner, was it through her brother? we don't know.

Was she already a vulnerable individual with one child and single?

Her Family allowed their convicted and self professed paedophile son to either reside or visit within their home......the same home that at some point contained young girls - 6 and 3 year old girls....- Hence him being told by his own Father NOT to go in the girls bedrooms

The paedophile Uncle was already incarcerated and in Jail when these further allegations.................backed up by medical evidence apparently...happened..

Will be very interesting to see where this charge goes >>>

The one thing I have learned through this case....sickens me...the depth of depravity of paedophiles knows no bounds....and the extent of individuals involved in this sickening behaviour is beyond comprehension....My personal observation of the numerous articles I have read is frightening.....this is epidemic....and I have to wonder why??.......if it ends up being a biological born attraction...I am seriously worried how society can combat that attraction....

 

[Wexford]

From Germany I sense the frustration in your post.......................firstly I don't believe for an instance that this person described as obsessive (the coacher) is for one minute the person who instigated the current charges against Bill Spedding....to be honest I think all the players were convinced by Police...based on Police suspicion to proceed with the case...there is no "outcome' motive that I can see from those individuals.

If we could find the evidence....I am sure it was the police who decided to act upon and arrest Bill on these historical accusations.....not the actual victims!!......and this was police game playing.....strategy!!!

A vindictive ex partner flying accusations against an ex partner to keep that partner away from her young children is somewhat understandable......BUT....27years later when those children are grown adults....27 years to have remained silent and cause no further grief ??

We have no idea of how she met her partner, was it through her brother? we don't know.

Was she already a vulnerable individual with one child and single?

Her Family allowed their convicted and self professed paedophile son to either reside or visit within their home......the same home that at some point contained young girls - 6 and 3 year old girls....- Hence him being told by his own Father NOT to go in the girls bedrooms

The paedophile Uncle was already incarcerated and in Jail when these further allegations.................backed up by medical evidence apparently...happened..

Will be very interesting to see where this charge goes >>>

The one thing I have learned through this case....sickens me...the depth of depravity of paedophiles knows no bounds....and the extent of individuals involved in this sickening behaviour is beyond comprehension....My personal observation of the numerous articles I have read is frightening.....this is epidemic....and I have to wonder why??.......if it ends up being a biological born attraction...I am seriously worried how society can combat that attraction....

I agree Puggle that it appears to have been a move by the police to push for the arrest. Maybe to take BS out of the game for a while??
I was reading up about the Colt family yesterday and while that is an extreme example, it does seem to me that perhaps there are whole families where the behaviour continues on down the generations and it becomes 'acceptable' amongst the family because it 'happens all the time'. I thought I was fairly worldly but now I think perhaps I have been walking around with my eyes shut.

 

[Bohemian]

Why does whoever claim, the mother of the 2 abused girls had been tutoring and coaching them to say "It was Bill"? If a mother is described then for being obsessive and crazy - how can she save their children without being called that or similar? Only the perpetrators would do it, I think. If the mother also had accused other men, then there was an important reason perhaps? If the mother had 2 pedophiles to live with (BS and her own brother) and the two had "nice" friends like AJ or PB or ............. there are many more as we know ......, then why is it only a little bit surprising, that this woman had accused several men? Not to forget her life until be married to BS, but already with a brother of JH's caliber? Nobody knows, what terrible things she may have had experienced before her little daughters had become the target.
If a little 3yo child doesn't know what happened or later on had forgotten/repressed terrible things done to her, then from a psychological perspective it seems very normal, IMO. No reason for BS' defense to say, there never had happened abuse to her.
From any view, the pedophiles have seemingly an easy game before-during-after.

Historically, assassinating a female victim's character, their dress, level of intoxication, location, activity at time of day, mental competence, etc, was used as a legal defence in adult rape cases in Australia up until fairly recently; (ie, "But Your Honour, my client, Mr X, was led on by Miss A. If he didn't know she was a ****/she wasn't wearing a low cut top and/or short skirt/drunk/walking home alone in an isolated area/out in the middle of the night; he wouldn't have had sex with her. Miss A was basically inviting Mr X's attentions." Or "Your Honour, Miss A is lying. She said, 'Yes.'" Or "Miss A has a long history of hysterical behaviour which has led to this unfounded accusation."

http://www3.aifs.gov.au/acssa/pubs/issue/i4.html#introduction

Therefore, it doesn't surprise me that the first line of attack in the defence of BS against the alleged historical child sexual assault charges, would be to assassinate the character of the mother of his alleged victims. They can't really be seen to attack the now-adult victims themselves, as they were children at the time of the alleged assaults.

Reference to the older victim being 'tutored/coached', implies she has colluded with the mother or may be 'lying' too, albeit innocently. The phrase 'Killing two birds with one stone.' comes to mind here.

The mention of the younger child 'not remembering anything' also adds weight to the defence's not-so-veiled accusations of lying/coaching of the alleged victims by the mother; rather than a state of disassociation from the alleged assaults by the victim (which is entirely possible given the horrific nature of the alleged assaults said to have been committed against both her and her sister.)

The same with the 'history of allegations against other men'. Given the rap sheet of the known associate of BS, as well as that of her own brother, it is entirely possible that there would have been others with their (and BS' alleged) proclivities insinuating themselves into both her and her daughters' lives. Therefore her complaints could have been/are valid. Trying to find justice, when no one is listening, can be 'crazy-making' for most people.

It's classic victim blaming; albeit by proxy.

All MOO. (I am no lawyer but I'm also no slouch at reading between the lines.)

 

[Bohemian]

I agree Puggle that it appears to have been a move by the police to push for the arrest. Maybe to take BS out of the game for a while??
I was reading up about the Colt family yesterday and while that is an extreme example, it does seem to me that perhaps there are whole families where the behaviour continues on down the generations and it becomes 'acceptable' amongst the family because it 'happens all the time'. I thought I was fairly worldly but now I think perhaps I have been walking around with my eyes shut.

The alleged historical child sexual assault charges, plus the statements regarding further pending charges, by Victorian (and other interstate?) child sex crimes task forces at his bail hearings, are a pretty big stick for LE to shake at BS if they are trying to get information regarding Wiiliam's disappearance/alleged abduction.

Also, he would have to be very careful about whom he contacts and associates with and where he goes. Not to mention the societal stigma associated with being an alleged paedophile. Some pressure huh?

Inspector, I could tell you things that would make your hair curl...but are off topic here. You'll find it all on your own if you look. Even with everything that's come into my awareness over the past few years, I never ceased to be shocked by another case of child or animal abuse.

 

[frogwell]

I'm going to throw this out there cause I don't care if I'm wrong and am seen to defending a peddo. If it is proved that he did it then I think he deserves life in prison. The scenario around BS with the historical charges could go something like this. He meets a woman and they have a relationship with custody with 2 young children. The woman has a brother who has been jailed for heinous crimes and he is out on parole. BS may never have been told by her or her family what he did and he may never have met him before. It seems at the time there may have been a separation between him and his partner and he has access to the children? The uncle has access to the children and criminal intent towards them and that is a part of the reason he has his parole revoked and is returned to jail at the end of January 87. In April/May the crimes against the children are discovered medically. This happened when the mother took the child to the doctor with body pain and the doctor referred the child to the Westmead hospital child sexual assault unit. Child protection agencies were informed and during the interview the 3year old said, " Bill did it." Initial reports of what happened said the attacks occurred on a weekend between March and April 87 in a caravan at Campbelltown. They were details from the police fact sheet. When I read between the lines, their does not appear to be reports about BS behaviour before or after Hillsley was in their lives. There is a question in my mind of how long it was before the mother took the children to get medical attention and what was observed of the injuries medically. The most I can glean of the medical report at the time was that there were signs of penetration. Not how old the injuries are. The way it has been reported, it was juxtaposed with the mother's observations of the injuries but I question strongly that this is what the doctors observed. By the end of 87, BS has a new partner and somewhere in the late 80's it appears he has gone for access or custody of a child/children. It occurs to me that it's possible the mother was scared witless of losing custody of her children when she saw what had happened and thought she might be held responsible and blamed BS and coached the children. It is not an implausible scenario, and if something like this happened doesn't anyone else think that a terrible injustice may have befallen BS? All the other horrible things that have been said about him at the time these charges were laid are still just unfounded allegations and the relationship between him and AJ has not been established at all except to say they were neighbors. There was a Jones living opposite BS in Wellington but with a different initial and both families have said they weren't close, so I think it's a big stretch to call them associates. Although AJ's white station wagon has been taken in for forensics, we have seen and been told of a white station wagon being parked in the place it was sited since then. I agree with Puggle that the allegations were pursued by police not the victims. MOO

 

[Wexford]

The alleged historical child sexual assault charges, plus the statements regarding further pending charges, by Victorian (and other interstate?) child sex crimes task forces at his bail hearings, are a pretty big stick for LE to shake at BS if they are trying to get information regarding Wiiliam's disappearance/alleged abduction.

Also, he would have to be very careful about whom he contacts and associates with and where he goes. Not to mention the societal stigma associated with being an alleged paedophile. Some pressure huh?

Inspector, I could tell you things that would make your hair curl...but are off topic here. You'll find it all on your own if you look. Even with everything that's come into my awareness over the past few years, I never ceased to be shocked by another case of child or animal abuse.

Bohemian, sadly I am well aware of some shocking child abuse cases and have worked in animal rescue as well (horses mainly) and I have seen some horrific stuff done to animals too. I brought many of them home over the years, even as a child and still own one now. I am more shocked that there are families that not only cover up this sort of thing but seem to almost be actively encouraging it to the point where children are growing up with this as some sort of normality and something the whole family does. I know it is common for someone who was abused as a child to become an abuser themselves.....I just find it shocking that it could be a family thing, rather than a 'funny uncle' that was hushed up as a shameful secret as it used to be.

 

[Wexford]

Historically, assassinating a female victim's character, their dress, level of intoxication, location, activity at time of day, mental competence, etc, was used as a legal defence in adult rape cases in Australia up until fairly recently; (ie, "But Your Honour, my client, Mr X, was led on by Miss A. If he didn't know she was a ****/she wasn't wearing a low cut top and/or short skirt/drunk/walking home alone in an isolated area/out in the middle of the night; he wouldn't have had sex with her. Miss A was basically inviting Mr X's attentions." Or "Your Honour, Miss A is lying. She said, 'Yes.'" Or "Miss A has a long history of hysterical behaviour which has led to this unfounded accusation."

http://www3.aifs.gov.au/acssa/pubs/issue/i4.html#introduction

Therefore, it doesn't surprise me that the first line of attack in the defence of BS against the alleged historical child sexual assault charges, would be to assassinate the character of the mother of his alleged victims. They can't really be seen to attack the now-adult victims themselves, as they were children at the time of the alleged assaults.

Reference to the older victim being 'tutored/coached', implies she has colluded with the mother or may be 'lying' too, albeit innocently. The phrase 'Killing two birds with one stone.' comes to mind here.

The mention of the younger child 'not remembering anything' also adds weight to the defence's not-so-veiled accusations of lying/coaching of the alleged victims by the mother; rather than a state of disassociation from the alleged assaults by the victim (which is entirely possible given the horrific nature of the alleged assaults said to have been committed against both her and her sister.)

The same with the 'history of allegations against other men'. Given the rap sheet of the known associate of BS, as well as that of her own brother, it is entirely possible that there would have been others with their (and BS' alleged) proclivities insinuating themselves into both her and her daughters' lives. Therefore her complaints could have been/are valid. Trying to find justice, when no one is listening, can be 'crazy-making' for most people.

It's classic victim blaming; albeit by proxy.

All MOO. (I am no lawyer but I'm also no slouch at reading between the lines.)

BBM
Could not agree more and these events took place back in 1987...an era I remember well as I was just out of high school. This was a common school of thought back then sadly.
It was very common for rape cases to never go to trial because the victim would have to face the accused in court and also have their own character assassinated. It would have to be a very strong person to be prepared to go through all of that and still face the possibility that the accused would be released.

 

[frogwell]

Unfortunately, the police did not pursue charges back then even though they had a medical report, that apparently the current crown case says, puts Hillsley out of the picture, witnesses who are professionals, to the child's statement and they were in possession of a police interview with BS. This was all prior to a judge in a different court case describing one of the witnesses as "obsessive, compulsive and bizarre"This is not the way the defence described her. MOO

 

[Bohemian]

I'm going to throw this out there cause I don't care if I'm wrong and am seen to defending a peddo. If it is proved that he did it then I think he deserves life in prison. The scenario around BS with the historical charges could go something like this. He meets a woman and they have a relationship with custody with 2 young children. The woman has a brother who has been jailed for heinous crimes and he is out on parole. BS may never have been told by her or her family what he did and he may never have met him before. It seems at the time there may have been a separation between him and his partner and he has access to the children? The uncle has access to the children and criminal intent towards them and that is a part of the reason he has his parole revoked and is returned to jail at the end of January 87. In April/May the crimes against the children are discovered medically. This happened when the mother took the child to the doctor with body pain and the doctor referred the child to the Westmead hospital child sexual assault unit. Child protection agencies were informed and during the interview the 3year old said, " Bill did it." Initial reports of what happened said the attacks occurred on a weekend between March and April 87 in a caravan at Campbelltown. They were details from the police fact sheet. When I read between the lines, their does not appear to be reports about BS behaviour before or after Hillsley was in their lives. There is a question in my mind of how long it was before the mother took the children to get medical attention and what was observed of the injuries medically. The most I can glean of the medical report at the time was that there were signs of penetration. Not how old the injuries are. The way it has been reported, it was juxtaposed with the mother's observations of the injuries but I question strongly that this is what the doctors observed. By the end of 87, BS has a new partner and somewhere in the late 80's it appears he has gone for access or custody of a child/children. It occurs to me that it's possible the mother was scared witless of losing custody of her children when she saw what had happened and thought she might be held responsible and blamed BS and coached the children. It is not an implausible scenario, and if something like this happened doesn't anyone else think that a terrible injustice may have befallen BS? All the other horrible things that have been said about him at the time these charges were laid are still just unfounded allegations and the relationship between him and AJ has not been established at all except to say they were neighbors. There was a Jones living opposite BS in Wellington but with a different initial and both families have said they weren't close, so I think it's a big stretch to call them associates. Although AJ's white station wagon has been taken in for forensics, we have seen and been told of a white station wagon being parked in the place it was sited since then. I agree with Puggle that the allegations were pursued by police not the victims. MOO

I have room for your theory about BS' alleged historical child sexual abuse charges too, froggy. I suppose it will all come out in court unless, for some reason, the DPP decides to drop the charges. I don't think the DPP would have taken the case to court lightly though, regardless of any NSW Police strategy. They usually hate having egg on their faces in high profile cases IMO. Neverthless, if LE think there is even a slight chance that BS might give them information that will lead to William's recovery, wouldn't you expect them to apply any pressure they had at their disposal legally?

AJ and BS were described as living across the road from each other in their hometown of Wellington so that implies a long-term 'association' to me.

AJ's extended family (and now his most recent one) are said not to have anything to do with him, so which of his family members is stating he and BS knew each other but 'weren't close'? I was under the impression that this statement came from BS' side. (I'll re-read the MSM articles about the pair and post the links given time, as well as apologising if I'm wrong).

As for the white station wagon, the alleged sighting of a similar vehicle to AJ's near William's GM's former residence on the day William disappeared, and on subsequent occasions, does raise questions. FSG will answer those in due course, I suspect.

Sidebar: This is merely a rebuttal in places, froggy, not a personal attack. I have great respect for all the research you've done and your argument about the current charges for which BS is awaiting trial.

 

[sleepinoz]

I think any one in the situation that this woman is in will be called obsessive by a defendant and defence lawyer.

As to the 3yo not having any memory of the incidents, IMO that is a strong indication that there has been NO tutoring or coaching.

If she had of been tutored or coached I would think that her memory would be intact.

 

[frogwell]

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/wife-horr...am-tyrrell-disappearance-20151002-gk03hc.html

I went off this article which is a general ambiguous statement, describing the POI's relationship. I can see how they could be called associates, however I have not had it clarified that they were neighbors. I have question marks around that. I wish this court case would commence so we can really see the hand the police and suspect are holding, til then it's all speculation I know. I can understand the tactics the police have used and if they believe there is an association between BS and AJ, why they got BS locked up as quick as possible. If AJ is involved and he escalated his crimes between being charged with the CSA's and being incarcerated by kidnapping WT, then I'm sure they were looking at any way they could to get BS behind bars whilst they had any doubts about him. Fact is unless they know for sure that they have the right POI's they have a child abducter and God knows what else on their hands, running round on the loose and may still be in the community.

sidebar: bo I have no problem with your points and do not feel victimised in any way. Respect, peace out.

 

[Amee]

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/wife-horr...am-tyrrell-disappearance-20151002-gk03hc.html

I went off this article which is a general ambiguous statement, describing the POI's relationship. I can see how they could be called associates, however I have not had it clarified that they were neighbors. I have question marks around that. I wish this court case would commence so we can really see the hand the police and suspect are holding, til then it's all speculation I know. I can understand the tactics the police have used and if they believe there is an association between BS and AJ, why they got BS locked up as quick as possible. If AJ is involved and he escalated his crimes between being charged with the CSA's and being incarcerated by kidnapping WT, then I'm sure they were looking at any way they could to get BS behind bars whilst they had any doubts about him. Fact is unless they know for sure that they have the right POI's they have a child abducter and God knows what else on their hands, running round on the loose and may still be in the community.

sidebar: bo I have no problem with your points and do not feel victimised in any way. Respect, peace out.

Jones previously lived in Wellington, across the road from his friend, whitegoods repairman Bill Spedding.

Tony Jones has links to another person of interest in the William Tyrrell case, Bill Spedding. Jones’s family used to live across the road from the whitegoods repairman in Wellington.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...544057826?sv=d36f453d89e1faf18820774e1b705852

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...a-lengthy-record/story-fnii5s40-1227549626898

 

[bearbear]

Spedding is accused of sexually assaulting the two girls in a caravan in Campbelltown in April and May of 1987

There were also allegations that Mr Spedding 'did naughty things to children

An 83-page document containing hospital records and allegations of child sexual abuse was tendered in the bail application by Mr Spedding.
One of the girls complained in 1987 that 'her body was hurting' and that her private parts 'appeared to be purple and badly bruised

Opposing bail, Rosa Sharma argued that the two young girls Spedding is accused of molesting 'were very clear that it was [Bill Spedding]'.
Ms Sharma said the girls' mother 'saw bruising and a gaping hole in her genitals and th three-year-old said it was this applicant [Spedding] who has touched her down there'.

Mr Spedding allegedly raped two girls aged three and six repeatedly in a caravan in 1987

The tendered judgement also contains allegations of 'ongoing' child sexual abuse by Mr Spedding in Victoria.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...am-Tyrrell-related-child-rapist-murderer.html

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[bearbear]

He contacted one of his alleged victims, who is now an adult, “directly lobbying” her to declare he did not sexually abuse her when she was a child, according to police facts tendered in court.
The alleged victim refused and reported his request to police.
Police say Spedding was staying in a caravan on a friend’s property in Campbelltown on Sydney’s southwest fringe in 1987 when he got into bed with two children.
Spedding allegedly sexually assaulted the six-year-old girl before she fought him off and ended up on the floor, police facts state.
The girl has allegedly since told police she then cried and kept her head down as Spedding subjected the three-year-old to a series of sexual assaults.
The three-year-old was examined at a child sexual assault unit in May 1987 with a doctor finding injuries consistent with “penetrating and sexual assault”, the facts state.
While gathering victim statements about these offences, police claim they unearthed other “disturbing allegations” about children performing sex acts on each other.
Spedding also allegedly gave a child to another man to use for sex, court documents state.

http://www.news.com.au/national/cri...th-bill-spedding/story-fns0kb1g-1227322744804

 

[frogwell]

Jones previously lived in Wellington, across the road from his friend, whitegoods repairman Bill Spedding.

Tony Jones has links to another person of interest in the William Tyrrell case, Bill Spedding. Jones’s family used to live across the road from the whitegoods repairman in Wellington.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...544057826?sv=d36f453d89e1faf18820774e1b705852

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...a-lengthy-record/story-fnii5s40-1227549626898

Thanks, so it was Jone's family, unlikely Jones who lived across the road. In the white pages there is an A Jones of Wellington, but in another part of the town.

Thanks for the Daily Telegraph reference however I don't take much of what Tayor Auerbach says without at least 2 teaspoons of salt. Taylor has an obvious agenda.MOO

bbm

 

[frogwell]

Spedding is accused of sexually assaulting the two girls in a caravan in Campbelltown in April and May of 1987

There were also allegations that Mr Spedding 'did naughty things to children

An 83-page document containing hospital records and allegations of child sexual abuse was tendered in the bail application by Mr Spedding.
One of the girls complained in 1987 that 'her body was hurting' and that her private parts 'appeared to be purple and badly bruised

Opposing bail, Rosa Sharma argued that the two young girls Spedding is accused of molesting 'were very clear that it was [Bill Spedding]'.
Ms Sharma said the girls' mother 'saw bruising and a gaping hole in her genitals and th three-year-old said it was this applicant [Spedding] who has touched her down there'.

Mr Spedding allegedly raped two girls aged three and six repeatedly in a caravan in 1987

The tendered judgement also contains allegations of 'ongoing' child sexual abuse by Mr Spedding in Victoria.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...am-Tyrrell-related-child-rapist-murderer.html

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Thanks and even with that the presiding judge found it hard to accept that the crown case was strong and found the defendant had shown cause for doubt, as appalling as these allegations and submissions are and granted him bail

 

[Amee]

Dan Box ‏@DanBox10 Jun 18

The judge says evidence suggests both Bill Spedding's alleged victims were sexually assaulted. The question is by who?

 

[Bohemian]

Thanks, so it was Jone's family, unlikely Jones who lived across the road. In the white pages there is an A Jones of Wellington, but in another part of the town.

Thanks for the Daily Telegraph reference however I don't take much of what Tayor Auerbach says without at least 2 teaspoons of salt. Taylor has an obvious agenda.

I read it as AJ lived across the road from his friend, BS, in their home town of Wellington. Home town implies to me that both were born, and grew up, in Wellington (ie , my home town is Newcastle, although I have lived in numerous other places and don't live there anymore.) Not to mention the inclusion of the word 'friends'.

 

[Amee]

Thanks, so it was Jone's family, unlikely Jones who lived across the road. In the white pages there is an A Jones of Wellington, but in another part of the town.

Thanks for the Daily Telegraph reference however I don't take much of what Tayor Auerbach says without at least 2 teaspoons of salt. Taylor has an obvious agenda.

Taylor is the reporter of both those articles. Him and Dan usually tweet live from Court. Not sure what agenda Taylor would have and why.
BS left Wellington 5 years ago I havent seen when AJ left Wellington