Blah,blah,blah?!

[DeeDee249]

Yeah, it seems like a lie, but what blows my mind, is Why did JR put himself in his underwear in the basement? moo

He also tried to put himself in his underwear reading the note on the stairs and looking around in JB's room. Maybe he did it for the same reason he brought his daughter upstairs instead of calling the Detective, and the same reason Patsy threw herself on the body. Fiber evidence and a way to "explain" it.

 

[dodie20]

He also tried to put himself in his underwear reading the note on the stairs and looking around in JB's room. Maybe he did it for the same reason he brought his daughter upstairs instead of calling the Detective, and the same reason Patsy threw herself on the body. Fiber evidence and a way to "explain" it.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, but at least him reading the note and searching her room, while just in his underwear, makes some sense. The thing with the basement was ridiculous, IMO. one of those OMG! moments. MOO.

 

[BBB167893]

It looks primitive and sloppy to my eyes too, and I am no expert. The R defense tried to say it was an "expert" devise, especially Lou Smit.

Yeah, you have to wonder how they thought they'd get away with that garbage.

 

[KoldKase]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, but at least him reading the note and searching her room, while just in his underwear, makes some sense. The thing with the basement was ridiculous, IMO. one of those OMG! moments. MOO.

What has always puzzled me is what was JR covering for, when "someone" had already staged that window to look like an entrance/exit for an intruder?

The missing "broken window glass" clearly put the lie to the intruder-came-through-the-window story, as far as BREAKING it that night. Even Team Ramsey figured out it was too much of a stretch to claim the intruder stopped to vacuum up the glass, too.

In Patsy's '98 DA interview, she goes through a very elaborate story about cleaning that glass up, with LHP's help, as well. When Patsy starts elaborating extensively, she's lying--think about the "missing cell phone" story, which is clearly BS.

So by the time the Ramseys were being interviewed by Thomas in April '97, with a strict two hour time limit set by the Ramsey attorneys before they'd even show up, John Ramsey decides it's time to reveal that he broke the window, not an intruder. Like it might be important or something? :innocent: Not to worry, of course, as Team Ramsey just claimed the intruder noticed this broken window, under the long iron grate, deep in the window well, and took advantage of it.

Of course, the issue of the Ramseys never fixing the broken window is one for speculation, as well. Since they've never given a SPECIFIC DATE for John breaking that window, not that I have seen or can remember (if anyone else knows, please share and thanks in advance), JR's and Patsy's whole "broken window/cleaning up the glass/ intruder entry story just adds more questions.

Which of course is what they always and forever want, isn't it? Give Lou Smit a bogus, staged scene like that and he could find a whole foreign faction in it. :waitasec:

What I do wonder is who actually DID break that window and why John Ramsey thought he had to create such an elaborate lie to make it appear he did it. Their faithful lapdog jams wrote on her forum there was someone WITH John that night who can prove JR did break and enter the window, but of course, no name can be given for reasons which can't be given, either...creating even more BS for Team Ramsey to spin for people who are gullible and just need any old to hang their intruder on....

 

[gypsychild]

What has always puzzled me is what was JR covering for, when "someone" had already staged that window to look like an entrance/exit for an intruder?

The missing "broken window glass" clearly put the lie to the intruder-came-through-the-window story, as far as BREAKING it that night. Even Team Ramsey figured out it was too much of a stretch to claim the intruder stopped to vacuum up the glass, too.
In Patsy's '98 DA interview, she goes through a very elaborate story about cleaning that glass up, with LHP's help, as well. When Patsy starts elaborating extensively, she's lying--think about the "missing cell phone" story, which is clearly BS.

So by the time the Ramseys were being interviewed by Thomas in April '97, with a strict two hour time limit set by the Ramsey attorneys before they'd even show up, John Ramsey decides it's time to reveal that he broke the window, not an intruder. Like it might be important or something? :innocent: Not to worry, of course, as Team Ramsey just claimed the intruder noticed this broken window, under the long iron grate, deep in the window well, and took advantage of it.

Of course, the issue of the Ramseys never fixing the broken window is one for speculation, as well. Since they've never given a SPECIFIC DATE for John breaking that window, not that I have seen or can remember (if anyone else knows, please share and thanks in advance), JR's and Patsy's whole "broken window/cleaning up the glass/ intruder entry story just adds more questions.

Which of course is what they always and forever want, isn't it? Give Lou Smit a bogus, staged scene like that and he could find a whole foreign faction in it. :waitasec:

What I do wonder is who actually DID break that window and why John Ramsey thought he had to create such an elaborate lie to make it appear he did it. Their faithful lapdog jams wrote on her forum there was someone WITH John that night who can prove JR did break and enter the window, but of course, no name can be given for reasons which can't be given, either...creating even more BS for Team Ramsey to spin for people who are gullible and just need any old to hang their intruder on....

Did they find a vacuum and take the bag into evidence? Or only use their evidence vacuums? Did they take the garbage cans/bags from everywhere in the house? I might have missed those when I read the warrant, but aren't those pretty standard in a murder investigation?
I think JR definitely puts himself in his underwear all over the house for a reason. Skin? Body hair? Semen? (can claim it's from the front of the underwear or some such thing)... Maybe JR was messing with JBR in that room and PR came in swinging and broke the window and JBR's skull (shrug)

 

[KoldKase]

...Don't think it was expert either, but I think it rather does look like boy scout material: a commando toggle rope -

Commando Toggle Rope:

JonBenet's neck device:

Good find on the Boy Scout toggle, Whaleshark.

Burke was in the Boy Scouts for a few years before the murder.

I have said before, but will repeat for those who haven't seen my thoughts about this, the knot remaining tied on the wrist binding, of which we have a clear photo from autopsy photos, is easily reconstructed and proves to be a slip knot which not only slips tighter upon pulling, but also holds with the tension of flesh holding it in place--I created this on my leg and had to cut it off before my leg died.

So that's proof to me that whoever tied the knot on the wrist binding could have tied the same knot on the strangulation instrument, creating a weapon that worked as we know this one did.

But I have to say I don't believe Burke made the strangulation device found on JB, and here's why. I'm theorizing that her blood on her pillow on her bed, which in the '98 DA interview prompted Patsy to be asked if JB had nosebleeds, means she was already unconscious from the head blow and lying on her pillow at some point there before she was then carried downstairs. (JB had mucous-tinged blood on her face at autopsy, as well, so that's my theory on this blood evidence at this point.)

The inarguable evidence is that the "paintbrush handle" tied onto the cord came from Patsy's paint tray, broken beside that tray in the basement. I reasonably deduce that the cord was tied on the child's neck in the basement from the following evidence: the paintbrush came from the paint tray in the basement; the cord was tied from behind, at the back of the neck where the knot was found at autopsy; and a basement carpet fiber and paint chip matching paint from the paint tray were found on JB's chin at autopsy.

To me, this evidence implies that she was on her stomach in the basement when she was strangled with that cord. So if she was bludgeoned in or near her bedroom--bloody mucous on her pillow, then carried downstairs and strangled, I don't think Burke could have carried JB down two flights of stairs, even though he was somewhat older/bigger than she was. She weighed 45 lbs. at autopsy; I can carry 45 lbs., but not easily and I'm much larger than Burke was at the time, who may not have weighed 100 lbs. and was thin. Plus a limp body is dead weight...no pun intended, and I'm going by carrying a sleeping child that size, which most of us have done.

So that brings me to who could have carried her down two flights of stairs, unconscious and dying? Two adults were known to be in the home: one I'd bet the farm wrote the ransom note. Patsy's pad, pen, handwriting, linguistics; Patsy's fibers tied into the knots of the strangulation cord; Patsy's paintbrush used as the handle. Patsy lied to LE repeatedly, about critical issues with her murdered child too numerous to mention as I've already written too much now. Because I could go on and on....

The only questions I have are: was John involved in any of the crimes committed on JonBenet before or during the strangulation (and I include the prior molestation in this question); if not, at what point did he join in the cover up--or what did he know and when did he know it?

Sorry this is so long, but this goes to the heart of this murder case, so it's how I roll...or write, as it were. :blush:

 

[KoldKase]

Did they find a vacuum and take the bag into evidence? Or only use their evidence vacuums? Did they take the garbage cans/bags from everywhere in the house? I might have missed those when I read the warrant, but aren't those pretty standard in a murder investigation?
I think JR definitely puts himself in his underwear all over the house for a reason. Skin? Body hair? Semen? (can claim it's from the front of the underwear or some such thing)... Maybe JR was messing with JBR in that room and PR came in swinging and broke the window and JBR's skull (shrug)

Well, that's an interesting thought re: Patsy swinging.

There is another odd story out there, allegedly involving a lie detector test taken by a former employee who worked for Access Graphics under JR, in which she claimed JR's secretary told her she had info from JR that Patsy caught him molesting JB that night and swung at him, missed, and hit JB. The man who told this story was a polygrapher who claimed to have given the woman that lie detector test and said she passed. He told this story to a Colorado radio talk show host, Peter Boyle, I think. The same polygrapher also claimed the Ramsey attorneys called him to give the Ramseys their lie detector tests for their public relations tour, but he required them to take a drug test prior to it, and they moved on to the two we now know about, including the duplicitous Dr. "Diploma Mill" Gelb.

I'd have to look up the evidence lists to answer your questions about the vacuum bags being collected, or even trash bags. I'm sure someone else knows: so many great case experts here. I wish I could remember off the top of my head, but by this point, I've forgotten more about this case than I remember...sadly or happily? :crazy:

 

[KoldKase]

Okay, found an excellent collection of various tellings of the "accidental blow by Patsy when she found John molesting JB" story, including the sources, the players, and the polygraph claims.

The polygrapher was Gene Parker, and you can find it all here at ACandyRose.com (of course, thanks to ACR for all her unmatched online work on this case): http://www.acandyrose.com/s-diane-hallis.htm

While I've heard this story's basic premise of the murder for many years, knowing what I now know after my own blundering through the evidence and transcripts as they've been released to us over 14 years, it actually sounds more plausible than I had previously thought.

In fact, I can't think of any evidence that refutes it. It would explain what led up to the head blow, and why both parents would cover up for the other, which has been pointed out before, but I'm a stubborn, "show me" kind of person, and until I realized the significance of the "nosebleed" questions asked of Patsy and the blood of JB on her pillowcase, I wasn't convinced that the strangulation was absolutely done by one of the parents. Now I am.

So one of the two essential remaining questions of the murder for me has been who struck the head blow upstairs and why? Of course, without that confession, without something more than a tabloid story, we will never know. But this theory does fit the evidence. Also, the fibers of John's Isreali wool sweater found in the genital area where JB had been wiped down fits this scenario, as well.

So if these allegations were true, if these people weren't all just making stuff up to cash in and/or embellishing the truth in the Ramsey case tradition of "don't tell the whole truth because it's too dangerous," that would answer the second essential question of this murder: both parents were involved in the strangulation, as well, and that's why both of them had their clothing fibers present on the body, in the paint tray, and in the strangulation knots. That would also explain why they both lied to LE repeatedly, hired separate lawyers, and were bound together in the cover up until death did them part.

And while I don't claim to be psychic, nor conclude that others are, I have long had an image in my mind of John pulling the cord from above JB, straddling her little face down body in the basement while Patsy held her down. I have never been able to shake that image. Not that it's more than just my imagination or anything....

But I do believe the evidence is clear that one of the parents straddled the child and pulled the cord from above while she was lying on the basement carpet by the paint tray; and somehow the body had to be held down to pull the cord, a counterforce to keep the body from rising and to create the tension necessary on the noose.

I've never done an experiment to determine if it would take two people to do that, considering the length of the cord, etc. I hope LE has. Surely they have...right? :no:

 

[SunnieRN]

Well, that's an interesting thought re: Patsy swinging.

There is another odd story out there, allegedly involving a lie detector test taken by a former employee who worked for Access Graphics under JR, in which she claimed JR's secretary told her she had info from JR that Patsy caught him molesting JB that night and swung at him, missed, and hit JB. The man who told this story was a polygrapher who claimed to have given the woman that lie detector test and said she passed. He told this story to a Colorado radio talk show host, Peter Boyle, I think. The same polygrapher also claimed the Ramsey attorneys called him to give the Ramseys their lie detector tests for their public relations tour, but he required them to take a drug test prior to it, and they moved on to the two we now know about, including the duplicitous Dr. "Diploma Mill" Gelb.

I'd have to look up the evidence lists to answer your questions about the vacuum bags being collected, or even trash bags. I'm sure someone else knows: so many great case experts here. I wish I could remember off the top of my head, but by this point, I've forgotten more about this case than I remember...sadly or happily? :crazy:

I have felt for a long time, that Burke was the 'molester', but this version certainly makes a LOT of sense. Thanks KK for this point of view. What this baby went through, shatters my heart.

 

[KoldKase]

I have felt for a long time, that Burke was the 'molester', but this version certainly makes a LOT of sense. Thanks KK for this point of view. What this baby went through, shatters my heart.

I also have probably considered Burke as the prime suspect for a long time...right up until I figured out he couldn't have carried an unconscious JB down the stairs to the basement. It took the blood on the pillowcase for me to realize that he didn't put the strangulation device on her in the basement.

Looking at this old "story" again, though, I may be changing my mind again. I've done some editing on my last post since you hit "thanks," which includes more detail that I'm now pondering.

It would be unforgivable if the Ramsey parents did all this and let Burke's butt hang in the wind for life, suspected of molesting and murdering his own sister.

That would make me actually think LESS of the Ramseys, if possible.

I have to ponder this some more.

 

[KoldKase]

Quoting myself here: "It would be unforgivable if the Ramsey parents did all this and let Burke's butt hang in the wind for life, suspected of molesting and murdering his own sister.

That would make me actually think LESS of the Ramseys, if possible."

Because that really would make them monsters....

Even more monstrous than what was already done to JonBenet; more than what was done to the innocent bystanders, the collateral damage to so many others, including strangers who never met or knew of the Ramseys before this murder, but got dragged in as scapegoats.

If Patsy actually told Pam this story and Pam has aided in this cover up, as well...now that would be evil on a level even I haven't contemplated in this case.

When I've thought that nothing would surprise me in this case, this would really blow my mind.

 

[KoldKase]

Several sources wrote that the woman who cared for Patsy at the Fernie's home claimed Patsy, in a drugged out state, said something like "We didn't mean for this to happen." I don't know if that's true, partly true, or a fabrication, but for the sake of argument, let's say it was: it would hold up under this theory.

If Patsy and John were both involved, as has been pondered many times, with this "John molesting, Patsy reacting, accidental head bludgeoning" theory, that would explain why no one called 911 for JonBenet: both were guilty of abusing the child, even though Patsy's blow might have been an accident.

Cynic recently posted at FFJ the law regarding "felony murder" statute in Colorado law: death during the commission of a crime, particularly abuse of a child, is a death penalty first degree murder charge.

If Patsy swung something at John, who was committing sexual abuse of JonBenet, and she hit JonBenet instead, even though she wasn't attacking JonBenet the child was killed in the commission of child abuse by JOHN.

John would have been up for a death penalty charge of murder.

One thing that has always bothered me in any scenario is the time from the head blow to the strangulation. What happened during that time, if it wasn't a simultaneous process, I've wondered?

Were phone calls being made? Were John and Patsy trying to figure out what crimes they'd now committed, which would no doubt end up not only destroying their current high-profile, success-driven lives, but could result in long prison terms.

Was this how they quickly found the will and fortitude to strangle the child, knowing her survival was not only improbable with that head injury, which would have created a sickeningly loud crack, but that she would be impaired if she did survive, and who would care for her then?

All while the Ramseys found themselves in a legal firestorm, Burke without his parents, for all Patsy knew, certainly their fortune and prestige lost forever?

I don't know. Just thinking it through here. No way to know, of course, but really, it fits what I do know of the evidence.

 

[gypsychild]

Okay, found an excellent collection of various tellings of the "accidental blow by Patsy when she found John molesting JB" story, including the sources, the players, and the polygraph claims.

The polygrapher was Gene Parker, and you can find it all here at ACandyRose.com (of course, thanks to ACR for all her unmatched online work on this case): http://www.acandyrose.com/s-diane-hallis.htm

While I've heard this story's basic premise of the murder for many years, knowing what I now know after my own blundering through the evidence and transcripts as they've been released to us over 14 years, it actually sounds more plausible than I had previously thought.

In fact, I can't think of any evidence that refutes it. It would explain what led up to the head blow, and why both parents would cover up for the other, which has been pointed out before, but I'm a stubborn, "show me" kind of person, and until I realized the significance of the "nosebleed" questions asked of Patsy and the blood of JB on her pillowcase, I wasn't convinced that the strangulation was absolutely done by one of the parents. Now I am.

So one of the two essential remaining questions of the murder for me has been who struck the head blow upstairs and why? Of course, without that confession, without something more than a tabloid story, we will never know. But this theory does fit the evidence. Also, the fibers of John's Isreali wool sweater found in the genital area where JB had been wiped down fits this scenario, as well.

So if these allegations were true, if these people weren't all just making stuff up to cash in and/or embellishing the truth in the Ramsey case tradition of "don't tell the whole truth because it's too dangerous," that would answer the second essential question of this murder: both parents were involved in the strangulation, as well, and that's why both of them had their clothing fibers present on the body, in the paint tray, and in the strangulation knots. That would also explain why they both lied to LE repeatedly, hired separate lawyers, and were bound together in the cover up until death did them part.

And while I don't claim to be psychic, nor conclude that others are, I have long had an image in my mind of John pulling the cord from above JB, straddling her little face down body in the basement while Patsy held her down. I have never been able to shake that image. Not that it's more than just my imagination or anything....

But I do believe the evidence is clear that one of the parents straddled the child and pulled the cord from above while she was lying on the basement carpet by the paint tray; and somehow the body had to be held down to pull the cord, a counterforce to keep the body from rising and to create the tension necessary on the noose.

I've never done an experiment to determine if it would take two people to do that, considering the length of the cord, etc. I hope LE has. Surely they have...right? :no:

To me, this makes the most sense. The scream from JBR might have been mom coming in, looking like a monster, armed and swinging at dad -- that would create terror in a child. Maybe the molestation took a deeper darker turn and that's why JBR felt "not pretty", I would think it makes you feel pretty icky inside.
I am torn between this and a PR staging a fake abduction and deliberately killing JBR to get even with JR for the molestation. I think she felt JBR was ruined and therefore needed to go. You can't keep a 6 year old in the public eye quiet about that.
But here's the thing - I believe 100% that they BOTH had done something or there is no way they would have consistently covered for eachother. They were both guilty. I also believe that window was broken that night somehow and JR cleaned it up, afraid of evidence, made up the "crawled through naked" story...

 

[gypsychild]

If Patsy and John were both involved, as has been pondered many times, with this "John molesting, Patsy reacting, accidental head bludgeoning" theory, that would explain why no one called 911 for JonBenet: both were guilty of abusing the child, even though Patsy's blow might have been an accident.
I don't know. Just thinking it through here. No way to know, of course, but really, it fits what I do know of the evidence.

And if they were both a party to this - think of their lie detector test that they "passed" (with a little help from Mr. Xanax I am sure)
Questions:
Did you inflict any of the injuries that caused the death of JonBenét? If JR strangled and PR hit, each could answer "no" if they didn't know for sure which injury caused the final death
Regarding JonBenet, did you inflict any of the injuries that caused her death? See above
Were those injuries that resulted in JonBenét's death inflicted by you? Same question
Notice the question wasn't did you inflict any injuries on JBR on the night of 12/26
Do you know for sure who killed JonBenét? Nope - nether knows because it could have been either one
Regarding JonBenét, do you know for sure who killed her? Not for sure
Are you concealing the identity of the person who killed JonBenét? Nope, because they don't know which one caused the actual death
Self delusion, carefully worded questions and xanax and they could pass IMO. They needed the right questions so they had to go private.
I know I am new here, and probably talking out my butt, but I have a legal history and a lot of kids so this case bugs me
I think the questions actually give away the answers IMO.

 

[SunnieRN]

KK, I like your theory, but something, I'm not sure what, is niggling at my brain. I really think the scream, was in response to the acute molestation that occurred that night. Maybe Patsy, hearing the scream, went down to the basement to investigate. One thing for certain, I don't believe that Patsy would have swung a bat at Burke. That is her first born child. If Patsy did swing the bat, it had to be at John or JAR, who was molesting JonBenet.

As for the time between the hit and the strangulation, I really wonder if that was done to cover a sexual 'game' of strangulation, earlier in the evening, that may have gotten 'out of hand'. I truly believe that phone calls were made and that the R's knew Burke could not be arrested, charged or convicted of JonBenets murder, but that he could be used to cast doubt on their own guilt.

I really hate this case.

 

[KoldKase]

And if they were both a party to this - think of their lie detector test that they "passed" (with a little help from Mr. Xanax I am sure)
Questions:
Did you inflict any of the injuries that caused the death of JonBenét? If JR strangled and PR hit, each could answer "no" if they didn't know for sure which injury caused the final death
Regarding JonBenet, did you inflict any of the injuries that caused her death? See above
Were those injuries that resulted in JonBenét's death inflicted by you? Same question
Notice the question wasn't did you inflict any injuries on JBR on the night of 12/26
Do you know for sure who killed JonBenét? Nope - nether knows because it could have been either one
Regarding JonBenét, do you know for sure who killed her? Not for sure
Are you concealing the identity of the person who killed JonBenét? Nope, because they don't know which one caused the actual death
Self delusion, carefully worded questions and xanax and they could pass IMO. They needed the right questions so they had to go private.
I know I am new here, and probably talking out my butt, but I have a legal history and a lot of kids so this case bugs me
I think the questions actually give away the answers IMO.

I agree with you that the polygraphs were just more clever spin of Team Ramsey. There is also a transcript of the Ramseys being interviewed on TV around the time of their book release and they were asked, BEFORE the two we know they took, if they'd taken polygraphs for their attorneys. They both smugly said that was attorney client privilege. IOW, they had, I believe, or why wouldn't they just say no? Afraid someone would leak the info who knew the truth?

Though I can't find who actually put up this page (maybe someone here did or knows), here's a link to an excellent rundown of info on the Ramsey polygraphs, the men who took them, and how that game was played:

http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/polygraph/index.html

 

[KoldKase]

KK, I like your theory, but something, I'm not sure what, is niggling at my brain. I really think the scream, was in response to the acute molestation that occurred that night. Maybe Patsy, hearing the scream, went down to the basement to investigate. One thing for certain, I don't believe that Patsy would have swung a bat at Burke. That is her first born child. If Patsy did swing the bat, it had to be at John or JAR, who was molesting JonBenet.

As for the time between the hit and the strangulation, I really wonder if that was done to cover a sexual 'game' of strangulation, earlier in the evening, that may have gotten 'out of hand'. I truly believe that phone calls were made and that the R's knew Burke could not be arrested, charged or convicted of JonBenets murder, but that he could be used to cast doubt on their own guilt.

I really hate this case.

I hate it, too.

The scream in the middle of the night is a very iffy piece of information. If it happened, the time was not very specific; if it happened, who screamed? Patsy or JonBenet? If it happened, where was the scream in the house or in the sequence of events? I believe there is an infinite amount of speculation on that.

I have no idea if the woman heard the scream at all. Without a trial, we have no idea what she truly heard; she first claimed to have heard the scream, then retracted that statement in some loopy "psychic" re-statement. We also have to consider that her statements were written up by police officers who relayed the info in their reports, I believe Thomas said: the original report she gave when questioned shortly after the murder, and the follow-up report of questioning her again later, when she changed her statement. That's always ripe for misinterpretation. By the time we get the info through the media, it's hard to know what the truth is. All I know is that giving a statement to police and then retracting it equals confusion.

Of course I have wondered about that "scream," too, and sometimes factor it into theories, so I get what you're saying. But the blood on the pillowcase is physical evidence which is only open to interpretation as to how it got there, IMO. If that came from the head injury, after that point, she was unable to scream anymore.

 

[dodie20]

I also have probably considered Burke as the prime suspect for a long time...right up until I figured out he couldn't have carried an unconscious JB down the stairs to the basement. It took the blood on the pillowcase for me to realize that he didn't put the strangulation device on her in the basement.

Looking at this old "story" again, though, I may be changing my mind again. I've done some editing on my last post since you hit "thanks," which includes more detail that I'm now pondering.

It would be unforgivable if the Ramsey parents did all this and let Burke's butt hang in the wind for life, suspected of molesting and murdering his own sister.

That would make me actually think LESS of the Ramseys, if possible.

I have to ponder this some more.

There was a part in PR's police interview, that came across as so fake and so over the top, ( where BR was concerned), I got the impression that she was doing exactly what you're saying...coming across as sooo protective. like there was a hidden motive for her to shelter him...but there really wasn't. Anyway, it came across as very actory, imo. Up until that point, I considered BR 'a maybe' as far as suspects went. & what ticks me off now, is how much sympathy that bit of doubt garnered the Rs... because there was quite a bit of speculation that PR was protecting her 1 remaining child. In the enhanced 911, JR supposedly told BR something like, 'We're not talking to you'...looking back on that, I think it's possible that if JR and PR weren't down in the cellar together, the guilty one cast suspicion on BR and the non guilty parent, (in shock), went along with it? something was up, because that's no way to talk to your child, if you've just found a ransom note concerning your other child. & honestly, it's no way to talk to a child you suspect of murder. IDK what that part of the 911 was about, except the Rs didn't feel BR would be unsafe, all alone in his room. MOO.

 

[DeeDee249]

Were phone calls being made? Were John and Patsy trying to figure out what crimes they'd now committed, which would no doubt end up not only destroying their current high-profile, success-driven lives, but could result in long prison terms.

Was this how they quickly found the will and fortitude to strangle the child, knowing her survival was not only improbable with that head injury, which would have created a sickeningly loud crack, but that she would be impaired if she did survive, and who would care for her then?

.

The lack of police access to the phone records has always smelled fishy to me. You have a murdered little girl whose parents claimed she was "kidnapped" found by her father in her own home. Reason right THERE to have arrested the parents. The police WANTED to. The DA refused to allow it. Why?
Phone calls made from the R house or from the R cell phones between the times the parents claimed they put JB to bed and went to bed themselves and the time they claimed to have "found the RN" are EXTREMELY INCRIMINATING. Who would they call at that hour when all was seeming well and everyone asleep?
I know a judge supposedly blocked access to all R phone record after some tabloid scum tried to obtain them illegally. I don't buy the judge's reasoning. This was a CHILD SEXUAL ASSAULT/MURDER. You don't refuse access to evidence like that in a case like this because someone tried UNSUCCESSFULLY to get ahold of them. There had to be another reason.
Add this to the fact that some phone records went "missing" or (even more unbelievable) showed NO activity for the month of December and you have something that smells fishy alright. In fact it stinks to high heaven.
This stinks as much as the refusal to allow police access to her school and medical records. What child murder case EVER have you heard where the child's school and pediatrician do not do EVERYTHING they can to help police solve the child's murder? Right Only one case. THIS one. Because THIS ONE had wealthy and powerful parents with something to hide. There is simply no other explanation.

 

[I Must Break You]

Just letting you know where I stand. It's my experience that stun gun marks don't last all that long, and they don't do permanent damage (or at least, they're not SUPPOSED to). Mine took about two days to fade.

I'm new to the board, but have lurked on here on and off for awhile. I just wanted to drop my two cents on a few things. I used to be a Deputy Sheriff in between two stints in the Army, and I have to question the power of the stun gun you used Dave. In the academy we are all hit with a stun gun, to be certified to operate one, and I'll tell ya the marks I received under two shirts lasted well over two days, more like 2 or 3 weeks, and it was the same for every other student. One thing I'm sure about in this case is that a stun gun most certainly wasn't used (not by an intruder anyways) as they do not knock someone out, they stun you and afterwards your back to normal (albeit a elevated heart rate). Any child awoken by being stunned would be screaming their head off and would surely have awoken anyone in the house. Not only that stun guns themselves are not quiet. I have to question Lou Smit about this as he surely should have known that.

I personally feel the RDI theory is by far the most likely as everything in the case make little to no sense for IDI. I've talked this case over with some investigators and officers at the Sheriff's Dept. where I worked and they to believe the family had to be involved in some capacity. People also seem to forget, DNA is inclusive not exclusive and just because there is touch DNA of someone else that DOES NOT exclude the parents from involvement. Also being that the underwear was new and fresh from the package there is a very good chance the DNA is from the manufacturer and had nothing to do with this crime, IMO.

I personally feel the parents were able to get away with murder, and doubt there will ever be closure in this case sadly.