Blunt Force Trauma

[txsvicki]

There are four little marks around the elbow bend on the inside of her arm that no one has been able to explain. I thought maybe they could have been caused by edge of her kitchen counter as the counters are not rounded as they are in most homes built today. Darlie's counters have a square edge and I could see the possibility that someone banging her arm on the counter in an attempt to get her to release an object from her hand (like the knife) or someone pressing their weight against her arm as it laid on the counter might cause those marks.

How on earth did your relative get hit in only the upper portion of her arm. Wouldn't she have had to have her arm raised above her head to get a get swing at it?

It wasn't her upper arm, it was the forearm and the whole thing was bruised. She said it was done with a board but wouldn't say a whole lot more.

 

[Goody]

It wasn't her upper arm, it was the forearm and the whole thing was bruised. She said it was done with a board but wouldn't say a whole lot more.

Well, a board longways would create the large flat surface for an arm as small as Darlie's. Anything like that, a wall, a floor, a tabletop,a counter top, even something covered by something soft might do it. Carpenters sometimes wrap a towel around the hammer to avoid leaving marks on wood.

Thanks for giving us something else to consider. Before this discussion I had pretty much ruled out a board as a possible source......and a bat (beesy will love this) but I can see the possibilities of a plastic bat now. Still not sure about a baseball bat though. Not sure one could control how hard to hit with it and that marks would not show the general width of the weapon used. So you've opened a window a two there. :clap:

 

[beesy]

Goody:I was merely focused on THIS case and it is plain to see that a bat was not used here. I don't know why you aren't talking about this case,but you should be because the whole reason people wanted to know more about BFT was to apply it to THIS CASE

by beesy: Someone asked me for a definition of blunt
force trauma. So I posted it, not just in reference to Darlie's injuries

I clearly state here not JUST in reference to Darlie's injuries. I did not say the definition I posted had NOTHING to do with THIS CASE.

We all know now that a bat, though it is not flat, can cause blunt force trauma. Anything that doesn't have a sharp edge can. You know,like even dashboards?

ooh, original, copy the definition word for word
I posted the definition of BFT for someone who asked me to. I figured instead of a lengthy PM, I might as well share the wealth.

So don't get your panties in a wad.

Oh, they are already in a wad, sweetie and you're the only one around here giving wedgies

 

[beesy]

She doesn't have any bruises in the silly string tape. The bruises appear to have come and gone rather quickly. However, I think there are about 12 days or so between the photo session at the police station on the 10th and the silly string party.

JUNE, 14 1996: The Routiers hold a graveside birthday celebration for Devon, who would have turned 7. They spray Silly String on the grave and sing "Happy Birthday." Afterward, they give a 45-minute interview to KXAS-TV (Channel 5) during which they say they have nothing to hide and have no idea why someone would kill the boys

http://www.fordarlieroutier.org/Comments/Chronology.html
You say the photos were taken on the 10th? The party was on the 14th, obviously not "12 days or so".

 

[Goody]

I clearly state here not JUST in reference to Darlie's injuries. I did not say the definition I posted had NOTHING to do with THIS CASE.

ooh, original, copy the definition word for word
I posted the definition of BFT for someone who asked me to. I figured instead of a lengthy PM, I might as well share the wealth.

Oh, they are already in a wad, sweetie and you're the only one around here giving wedgies

Sheesh, beesy,will you drop it, already? Cripes! You posted BFT for whatever reasons you had and I just brought it back to Darlie's case which apparently is where the confusion started. This is a forum about Darlie. Remember? It is fine to share what you did, but just as fine for me to remind folks what medical experts had to say about her bruises specifically and the possible causes. Didn't mean to rain on your parade but that's life on the big forum. :crazy:

 

[Goody]

http://www.fordarlieroutier.org/Comments/Chronology.html
You say the photos were taken on the 10th? The party was on the 14th, obviously not "12 days or so".

Good find, Miss Priss. You are correct. That list at the link is very helpful. So how do bruises that horrific come and go in just 4 or 5 days? How do bruises that horrific stay invisible for the fist 3 days? Either way you look at it, those bruises make NO sense at all.

 

[beesy]

Good find, Miss Priss. You are correct. That list at the link is very helpful. So how do bruises that horrific come and go in just 4 or 5 days? How do bruises that horrific stay invisible for the fist 3 days? Either way you look at it, those bruises make NO sense at all.

is she being facetious or really asking me?

Are you positive here was no remaining bruising at all? She doesn't turn her arms inside out towards the camera or anything. Maybe they are temporary tattoos, or dingo footprints. Should we go back to the old now-dismissed theory of blood settling ? I don't know and I'm beginning to not care.

 

[deanws]

is she being facetious or really asking me? [url="http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_6.gif"]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_6.gif[/url]

Are you positive here was no remaining bruising at all? She doesn't turn her arms inside out towards the camera or anything. Maybe they are temporary tattoos, or dingo footprints. Should we go back to the old now-dismissed theory of blood settling ? I don't know and I'm beginning to not care.

I am liking the dingo theory.............................

 

[Goody]

is she being facetious or really asking me? [url="http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_6.gif"]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_6.gif[/url]

Are you positive here was no remaining bruising at all? She doesn't turn her arms inside out towards the camera or anything. Maybe they are temporary tattoos, or dingo footprints. Should we go back to the old now-dismissed theory of blood settling ? I don't know and I'm beginning to not care.

Know the feeling. I think it boils down to we may never know. There does not seem to be a way to explain them no matter how you look at it. She was bound to have some bruising from the needles after she left the hospital but that certainly does not account for the massive bruising we see in the photos. The blood settling theory may be the only thing that might explain the way they mysteriously appear and disappear.

 

[cami]

There is even less of a chance that a bat did it! :slap:

Besides, I thought you said you weren't talking about bft in Darlie's case.

There is no weapon pattern to those bruises. A bat or a two by four would show some kind of pattern. I think anyway. Just look at the photos of Colette Macdonald's arms from the blunt force trauma she received from the piece of lumber he beat her with. both of her arms were broken, one broken in two places.

Second thought......She could have slammed the arm down on a 2x4 or a bat don't you think? The 2x4 anyway. I used to think Darin slammed her arm down to try and remove that knife, but if that happened, we'd see evidence of it in the hospital don't you think? There is absolutely no way she got them from holding her arms up protecting her head and face.

 

[Goody]

There is no weapon pattern to those bruises. A bat or a two by four would show some kind of pattern. I think anyway. Just look at the photos of Colette Macdonald's arms from the blunt force trauma she received from the piece of lumber he beat her with. both of her arms were broken, one broken in two places.

Second thought......She could have slammed the arm down on a 2x4 or a bat don't you think? The 2x4 anyway. I used to think Darin slammed her arm down to try and remove that knife, but if that happened, we'd see evidence of it in the hospital don't you think? There is absolutely no way she got them from holding her arms up protecting her head and face.

Well, after looking at the exact dates of the photos/videos of her, neither is possible. On one end, there should have been red where there is not, and on the other end, the bruises should still be present but are not. So I don't think the intruder or Darlie or Darin created them. Not in any traditional sense anyway. I don't know what caused them so maybe it was some medical fluke that she merely took advantage of. Whatever caused them, the bruises came and went very quickly, much faster than bruises normally do. What does that tell us?

 

[beesy]

Well, after looking at the exact dates of the photos/videos of her, neither is possible. On one end, there should have been red where there is not, and on the other end, the bruises should still be present but are not. So I don't think the intruder or Darlie or Darin created them. Not in any traditional sense anyway. I don't know what caused them so maybe it was some medical fluke that she merely took advantage of. Whatever caused them, the bruises came and went very quickly, much faster than bruises normally do. What does that tell us?

Is there a Docter in the house?

 

[Goody]

[url="http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_9_5v.gif"]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_9_5v.gif[/url] Is there a Docter in the house?

O, please, no more medical opinions. LOL!

 

[Mary456]

O, please, no more medical opinions. LOL!

Can you handle one more from Dr. Mary, lol!? Let's say Darlie inflicted the bft the night of 6/8 or sometime 6/9. That would fit the timeline with the purple/blue bruises photographed on 6/10 (24 to 48 hours old).

The photos from the silly string incident (6/14) were taken from quite a distance, so we can't see her arms clearly. It's entirely possible that the bruises had already faded enough that they wouldn't show up from so far away.

I'll bet if we could get a close-up of her right arm on that tape, we'd see the same yellow coloring - fading bruises - that appeared on her left wrist 6/10, four days after the IVs were inserted.

 

[Goody]

Can you handle one more from Dr. Mary, lol!? Let's say Darlie inflicted the bft the night of 6/8 or sometime 6/9. That would fit the timeline with the purple/blue bruises photographed on 6/10 (24 to 48 hours old).

The photos from the silly string incident (6/14) were taken from quite a distance, so we can't see her arms clearly. It's entirely possible that the bruises had already faded enough that they wouldn't show up from so far away.

I'll bet if we could get a close-up of her right arm on that tape, we'd see the same yellow coloring - fading bruises - that appeared on her left wrist 6/10, four days after the IVs were inserted.

Yeah, but they had some good close ups of her. Plus they were taken with professional cameras that can handle distance much better than a little camcorder can. But I will leave it up others with better eyes than mine. If someone can see bruises on the silly string tape or the interview directely following it, reason might come back into the bruise issue. Right now I am just plain lost on the issue.

 

[beesy]

Well, after looking at the exact dates of the photos/videos of her, neither is possible. On one end, there should have been red where there is not, and on the other end, the bruises should still be present but are not. So I don't think the intruder or Darlie or Darin created them. Not in any traditional sense anyway. I don't know what caused them so maybe it was some medical fluke that she merely took advantage of. Whatever caused them, the bruises came and went very quickly, much faster than bruises normally do. What does that tell us?

I think I'm going with what you said about possibly some medical fluke, at least for most of that bruising. Wouldn't be difficult to even get up enough momentum to slam your arms on a counter? And how would you do it? Standing up? Think how hard you'd have to slam your arms to cause those bruises. The door is out because you'd have bruising on both sides. An object is out because there would be patterns or broken bones. My husband suggested she might have used her fists. You could easily pound herself hard enough and get all the way up to the pit by doing that. Perhaps if you repeatedly hit the same spot, you'd get rid of any type of pattern. That's actually a pretty good thought. Even it was stated in trial that it was "a large, flat object", we can't seem to find it. He said right off the bat "self-inflicted with her fists" when I asked him. He didn't know anything about what was said at the trial. That was just his gut reaction.

 

[Goody]

I think I'm going with what you said about possibly some medical fluke, at least for most of that bruising. Wouldn't be difficult to even get up enough momentum to slam your arms on a counter? And how would you do it? Standing up? Think how hard you'd have to slam your arms to cause those bruises. The door is out because you'd have bruising on both sides. An object is out because there would be patterns or broken bones. My husband suggested she might have used her fists. You could easily pound herself hard enough and get all the way up to the pit by doing that. Perhaps if you repeatedly hit the same spot, you'd get rid of any type of pattern. That's actually a pretty good thought. Even it was stated in trial that it was "a large, flat object", we can't seem to find it. He said right off the bat "self-inflicted with her fists" when I asked him. He didn't know anything about what was said at the trial. That was just his gut reaction.

I have thought about fists, too. As long as knuckles weren't involved,he may be right on. But for some reason ...maybe because she NEVER addresses them except to say "You can look at me and tell someone did that to me,"......I tend to feel a little weird about them, as if they aren't what they appear to be, like some sort of optical illusion. Whatever she did, she sure got lucky with it. Not lucky enough to fool the jury but certainly lucky enough to keep people talking about them and trying to figure out what she did. My gut tells me she didn't do anything but use them to her advantage. They appeared out of nowhere and as the colors got worse, she said to herself, "It looks like someone beat the heck out of me." And then she remembers one of the detectives saying, "You don't have the defensive wounds we usually see." Next trip to the police station, she says, "No defense wounds? Look at these? I didn't do it to myself!!" So the cops take photos with a smirk on their faces, just knowing she did something but not knowing what. At least that is my current theory in response to your thoughts today. By tomorrow, something brand new may pop up to send me in a whole different direction. Can't wait for Darin's book. He is gonna tell us just where those suckers came from. LOL!

 

[beesy]

I have thought about fists, too. As long as knuckles weren't involved,he may be right on. But for some reason ...maybe because she NEVER addresses them except to say "You can look at me and tell someone did that to me,"......I tend to feel a little weird about them, as if they aren't what they appear to be, like some sort of optical illusion. Whatever she did, she sure got lucky with it. Not lucky enough to fool the jury but certainly lucky enough to keep people talking about them and trying to figure out what she did. My gut tells me she didn't do anything but use them to her advantage. They appeared out of nowhere and as the colors got worse, she said to herself, "It looks like someone beat the heck out of me." And then she remembers one of the detectives saying, "You don't have the defensive wounds we usually see." Next trip to the police station, she says, "No defense wounds? Look at these? I didn't do it to myself!!" So the cops take photos with a smirk on their faces, just knowing she did something but not knowing what. At least that is my current theory in response to your thoughts today. By tomorrow, something brand new may pop up to send me in a whole different direction. Can't wait for Darin's book. He is gonna tell us just where those suckers came from. LOL!

You think if she used her knuckles there'd be a pattern? Suppose she just pounded herself in the same place the whole thing length of her arm? Hmmm, not using the fists....hmmm. If she tucked her fingers up and hit herself with her hands, that could account for the bruises on the back of her hands.

 

[Goody]

You think if she used her knuckles there'd be a pattern? Suppose she just pounded herself in the same place the whole thing length of her arm? Hmmm, not using the fists....hmmm. If she tucked her fingers up and hit herself with her hands, that could account for the bruises on the back of her hands.

I don't know, but a good rule of thumb is that the simpliest solution is usually the correct one. So what is the simpliest solution?

 

[beesy]

I don't know, but a good rule of thumb is that the simpliest solution is usually the correct one. So what is the simpliest solution?

I always say that too! When things become so convoluted you can't think straight, sumptin ain't right! Is it that she used her fists?:waitasec: She wouldn't care if she left a pattern, maybe it just didn't. By the way, Goody, beesy's all beamy!