Broken Window - to stage or not to stage?

[tipper]

Q. So it was actually audible on that equipment at the Boulder Police Department?

A. No, Mr. Hoffman, let me make sure I understand you. What are you -- what was audible?

Q. Burke's or the voice of someone who could have been Burke Ramsey talking in the background
at the very end of Patsy Ramsey's, you know, conversation with 911.

A. Well, you're cutting right to the punch line. There is a long story behind it but, yes, myself and
others listened to that tape and heard this third voice.

Q. So do you -- were you able to identify that third voice, you personally?

A. Well, I don't have any training in voice identification, but certainly it sounded to me to be a young
male voice.

MR. WOOD: Are you asking him, Darnay --

Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Were you able to draw based on your own personal experience of
hearing this tape that there was a voice of somebody who sounded like a young boy? A. Yes, that was my personal observation coming away from that.


Weren't there supposed to be 2 additional voices, Burke AND John talking?

http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996-911.htm
ST's book
"Their work produced a startling conclusion. Patsy apparently had trouble hanging up the telephone, and before it rested on the cradle she was heard to moan, "Help me, Jesus, Help me, Jesus." Her husband was heard to bark, "We're not talking to you." And in the background was a young-sounding voice: "What did you find?" It was JonBenet's brother, Burke."

_______________________

Also, I noticed in ST's ppbk p124 he says "The psychologist had said it was very unusual for a child to feel safe when a sibling had been violently killed."

Yet in PMPT Schiller, mentioning the same psychologistand interview, says of Burke "He didn't seem to be holding anything back, and he appeared to be dealing with the absence of his sister in the expected way."

So is this the Thomas double-speak where he says one thing that is technically true, but hopes you will infer much, much more from it?

 

[aussiesheila]

JOHN is the only one who said the door was closed and blocked by a chair. John booted it when he let it slip during the interview that he had to move the chair.
BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Are you sure that John actually said the door was closed?

I can't find where I read his interview but I didn't think John said the door was closed, in fact I didn't think he mentioned whether it was or wasn't, I thought he only said a chair was blocking the door and he moved the chair.

I also thought that he could have mean't that the chair was in the doorway partially obstructing it, rather than completely blocking it. I thought that both French and Fleet White possibly pushed past the chair, as they went through the doorway earlier in the morning, but that when John came to go through the doorway he went to the trouble of moving the chair and putting it in a more appropriate position. I think this is all to be expected. When you are in someone else's house as French and Fleet White were, you don't normally move furniture around if you can avoid it, but that John as the householder would have been inclined to move the chair as he went through the doorway, because putting things in their correct place is what you do in your own house.

Now this is all from my memory and John might have said something different. And if he did then all my reasoning is a waste.

Any directions to the original interview would be greatly appreciated.

 

[capps]

BlueCrab,

Are you sure that John actually said the door was closed?

I can't find where I read his interview but I didn't think John said the door was closed, in fact I didn't think he mentioned whether it was or wasn't, I thought he only said a chair was blocking the door and he moved the chair.

I also thought that he could have mean't that the chair was in the doorway partially obstructing it, rather than completely blocking it. I thought that both French and Fleet White possibly pushed past the chair, as they went through the doorway earlier in the morning, but that when John came to go through the doorway he went to the trouble of moving the chair and putting it in a more appropriate position. I think this is all to be expected. When you are in someone else's house as French and Fleet White were, you don't normally move furniture around if you can avoid it, but that John as the householder would have been inclined to move the chair as he went through the doorway, because putting things in their correct place is what you do in your own house.

Now this is all from my memory and John might have said something different. And if he did then all my reasoning is a waste.

Any directions to the original interview would be greatly appreciated.

Aussie,

In one of the interviews with John Ramsey,it went something like this:

The interviewer said in so many words,"John if the intruder left from that window it was impossible for the intruder to put the chair back in front of the door."

John's reply was (not verbatom): "No not really,if the intruder was devious enough to plan this whole thing,and leave little clues,there was
a way he could have figured out how to put the chair back against the door when he left."

Good answer John.(my own tongue in cheek reply.)

Don't remember which interview that was ... but I can look it up if you want.

 

[aussiesheila]

Thanks very much for your reply capps. Yes that sounds like the interview that I read. Oh but isn't it scary how differently we have remembered it? And thanks if you could look up the interview I would appreciate it.

 

[capps]

Thanks very much for your reply capps. Yes that sounds like the interview that I read. Oh but isn't it scary how differently we have remembered it? And thanks if you could look up the interview I would appreciate it.

You're welcome aussie.
I wasn't able to link it here .. but I found it at the acandyrose site,it was an excerpt form the NE book "JonBenet,The Police Files" - pg.314.

Hope this helps.

 

[eternity]

I can't answer your question directly, but if I had to guess, they would answer..."I don't know."

or that they "do not recall", yet if I were them, I'd be very wary of what I said to the BPD or the DA in Boulder because they are CROOKED. Furthermore, they were probably so messed up that morning they really don't remember much at all. People go blank/hazy when they suffer a tragedy but that still does not eliminate them. I don't know what to believe. Either way, they were a very wealthy family, and it seems odd that they would not get around to fixing a broken window because they seemed a bit pedantic about stuff like that. Just my opinion though.

 

[Toltec]

John said " I NOTICED THAT THE DOOR WAS STILL BLOCKED".

Still blocked?

What does he mean by that?

 

[tipper]

John said " I NOTICED THAT THE DOOR WAS STILL BLOCKED".

Still blocked?

What does he mean by that?

Where do you find John saying still blocked?

 

[Jayelles]

Where do you find John saying still blocked?

It's from here. 1998 interview:-

18 MIKE KANE: Okay. And then I think you

19 said you did go in the basement to see how

20 (INAUDIBLE) Could you like just picture that scene

21 again and walk me through it?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, when I came down, I

23 mean, one of the things I noticed, okay, that door

24 is still blocked?

25 MIKE KANE: What do you mean it was

0172

1 blocked?

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

 

[tipper]

Right before that quote John says:

JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't go to the

9 basement till later.

10 MIKE KANE: Was there a reason?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I mean, the first thing

12 that came to my mind was the refrigerator. I don't

13 know why. I had to look in there and she wasn't

14 there. I mean it was a combination of trying to

15 see if she was in the house, to see how they got

16 in, and there's all this going through your mind.

17 Just what's going on.

To me it sounds like he is thinking to himself something on the lines of - "This doorway was blocked when I was down here last week/month/whatever, and it's still blocked so they probably didn't come through it."

Also, according to this, the door itself was open. But the chair was in the doorway.

LOU SMIT: You go down, that's what you see?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: I go down, I say, ooh, that door

11 is blocked. I move the chair and went in the room.

12 LOU SMIT: So you couldn't have gotten in

13 without moving the chair?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Correct.

15 LOU SMIT: And the door was opened or closed?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was opened.

17 LOU SMIT: The door was opened?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: correct.

19 LOU SMIT: Okay.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: In that picture, it looks like

21 -- I came in on this side of the door (INAUDIBLE)

22 and would have had to remove that drum table and

23 the Easter basket.

24 MIKE KANE: Which side are you talking about?

25 The inner side or the lock side?

0280

1 JOHN RAMSEY: If I had the door open it

2 must be the lock side. That chair was right there

3 when I went down there, on the lock sided of the

4 door.

5 MIKE KANE: On the opposite the hinges.

6 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. And I moved it and

7 entered the room. And in that picture --

8 LOU SMIT: And you don't know if you were

9 the first one down there?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought I -- Well the police,

11 they probably went through the house a bit. I

12 don't know where they went. I heard later that

13 Fleet White claimed he went through the basement

14 alone. I don't know if that was before or after I

15 did alone.

16 LOU SMIT: That's why we're trying to

17 determine your time. If you can get that down.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I wish I can tell

19 you precisely, but it had to be -- you see I think

20 when the first uniformed officer came, French, he

21 very quickly said, I want all you people in the

22 room, and then people started showing in this

23 room, which was the solarium where he talked, is

24 the solarium.

25 And then some other officers came and I my

0281

1 impression at that time was that they did a

2 cursory check of the house. One of the uniformed

3 house went through the house. That had been fairly

4 early.

5 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)

6 JOHN RAMSEY: We don't. I think it's between

7 6:00 and 6:30. So that person should have been the

8 first one to go through the house.

9 I went in the basement, certainly before we were

10 getting ready for the call. (INAUDIBLE) until

11 eight, so that would have been eight o'clock. So

12 we were preparing for that. By 7:30, let's say,

13 and Fleet and I were talking about what we were

14 going to say.

15 LOU SMIT: Would that have been before

16 then or after?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have been before

18 then I believe.

19 LOU SMIT: So it was before eight o'clock?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: That's right. (INAUDIBLE) I'm

21 trying to reconstruct in it my mind.

22 LOU SMIT: But when you went to the train

23 room, you had move these things in order to get

24 into the train room?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I had to move the chair.

0282

1 LOU SMIT: The thing I'm trying to figure

2 out in my mind then is, if an intruder went

3 through the door, he'd almost have to pull the

4 chair behind him.

5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That's correct.

6

7 LOU SMIT: Because that would have been

8 his exit?

9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

10 LOU SMIT: Okay.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was blocked. He'd

12 have to move something to get into the room.

13 LOU SMIT: And he would have had to move

14 it back, if he was in there trying to get out, is

15 that correct?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

17 LOU SMIT: So that's not very logical as

18 far as --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it is. I mean if this

20 person is that bizarrely clever to have not left

21 any good evidence, but left all these little funny

22 little clues around, they certain are clever

23 enough to pull the chair back when they left.

24 LOU SMIT: But it was your impression that

25 that chair was blocking that door?

0283

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. The chair and something

2 else. But it certainly wasn't the Easter baskets.

3 They were sitting there on the drum table. So I

4 never touched them. I just moved the chair and

5 went in.

6 LOU SMIT: And that's one of the things

7 that we have to really get clear, because the

8 photographs were taken fairly early that morning.

9 JOHN RAMSEY: But I think the question is,

10 would a police officer have done that? Probably

11 not. Would Fleet White have done that? I don't

12 know. Just looking at this picture, it doesn't

13 appear to me that that chair had anything to do

14 with the door. But, you know, geez, I wish I could

15 remember. But I don't remember moving that. I

16 really don't. all I remember is kind of moving the

17 chair and walking in.

 

[BlueCrab]

John Ramsey is lying through his teeth in this exchange between Lou Smit and himself. John admits he had to move the chair to get into the room. But he had to be in the train room PRIOR to 6:00 AM to have moved the chair.

The chair wasn't there when Officer French went into the train room at 6:05 AM and the chair wasn't there when Fleet White went into the train room at 6:20 AM.

That whole morning is based on a pack of Ramsey lies. The chair proves it; and the enhanced 911 tape proves it. They had all been up hours prior to the 911 call at 5:52 AM.

BlueCrab

 

[Toltec]

John Ramsey is lying through his teeth in this exchange between Lou Smit and himself. John admits he had to move the chair to get into the room. But he had to be in the train room PRIOR to 6:00 AM to have moved the chair.

The chair wasn't there when Officer French went into the train room at 6:05 AM and the chair wasn't there when Fleet White went into the train room at 6:20 AM.

That whole morning is based on a pack of Ramsey lies. The chair proves it; and the enhanced 911 tape proves it. They had all been up hours prior to the 911 call at 5:52 AM.

BlueCrab

And add this slip-up by Patsy: "I screamed..he screamed as he came up from the basement."

And this statement by John: "I didn't want Patsy to see her that way so I ran upstairs to get a blanket."

"Where did you get the blanket?

"From the den."

 

[RedChief]

Thanks, Jayelles and tipper for setting the record straight (once again) concerning the door to the train room. It's always helplful to distinguish between a doorway (a portal; an opening into e.g. a room) and a door (a means of closing off or opening up the portal). The portal (the doorway) is fixed; the door is not. A door is to a doorway as a shutter is to an iris.

The door was open; the doorway was partially blocked by the chair, per John. To believe him or not to believe him; that is the question. His "testimony" apparently doesn't jibe with that of FW or Officer French. Maybe John descended into the maelstrom...er....basement much earlier than he remembered.

I was hoping you guys'd have this all straightened out by now.

Was it a green door?

 

[tipper]

John Ramsey is lying through his teeth in this exchange between Lou Smit and himself. John admits he had to move the chair to get into the room. But he had to be in the train room PRIOR to 6:00 AM to have moved the chair.

The chair wasn't there when Officer French went into the train room at 6:05 AM and the chair wasn't there when Fleet White went into the train room at 6:20 AM.

That whole morning is based on a pack of Ramsey lies. The chair proves it; and the enhanced 911 tape proves it. They had all been up hours prior to the 911 call at 5:52 AM.

BlueCrab

How do you know the chair wasn't there when French and White went down? I haven't seen French's report and we know FW's depo is sealed. Also, until the Aerospace version of the tape is released, I think it is inappropriate to say the enhanced 911 tape "proves" anything. It is misleading to new readers who may not know that neither you nor anyone else here (that I know of) has heard that tape.

 

[sissi]

Welcome back Red Chief!

I have a problem this morning locating that word "still" on my copy of the interviews, where John says, " the door is "still" blocked". The transcript provided by Jayelles shows it, the one provided by Tipper does not. Could someone link me to the copy that contains that phrase, please?

 

[tipper]

Jayelle's link has it.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

Actually that link has both the "still" bit and what was included on p. 314 in the NE book. It's all part of the same interview.

 

[BlueCrab]

How do you know the chair wasn't there when French and White went down? I haven't seen French's report and we know FW's depo is sealed. Also, until the Aerospace version of the tape is released, I think it is inappropriate to say the enhanced 911 tape "proves" anything. It is misleading to new readers who may not know that neither you nor anyone else here (that I know of) has heard that tape.

tipper,

If a chair is blocking the door, it has to be moved out of the way just ONCE, and that is done by the first person who wants to go into the room. John admits he moved the chair out of the way from in front of the trainroom door. Therefore John was the first person in the trainroom that morning, followed by Officer French at 6:05 and Fleet White at 6:20. He lied when he said he wasn't in the basement until after the cops got there. The chair proves he lied. John was in the trainroom before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 AM.

In regard to the enhanced 911 tape, the final four seconds of the 911 tape was enhanced sufficiently by Aerospace Corporation to hear Burke's voice on it, and that proves Burke was downstairs talking to his parents during the 911 call at 5:52 AM and not upstairs in bed faking sleep. The Ramseys lied to investigators about Burke's whereabouts.

Aerospace Corporation, besides being a leading defense contractor, has facilities at El Segundo to train law enforcement personnel from all over the country in high tech matters. The credibility of Aerospace Corporation's scientists and engineers is unquestioned. The two engineers at Aerospace, Mike Epstein and Jim Roeder, who enhanced those final four seconds on the 911 tape, listened to the results of their work and verified with BPD Detective Mellissa Hickman that Burke's voice was on the tape. That's more than enough verification for me and any other reasonable person. Burke's voice is on the 911 tape and the Ramseys are caught in another bare-faced lie, this time on tape, trying to shield Burke.

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

tipper,

If a chair is blocking the door, it has to be moved out of the way just ONCE, and that is done by the first person who wants to go into the room. John admits he moved the chair out of the way from in front of the trainroom door. Therefore John was the first person in the trainroom that morning, followed by Officer French at 6:05 and Fleet White at 6:20. He lied when he said he wasn't in the basement until after the cops got there. The chair proves he lied. John was in the trainroom before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 AM.

One assumes French had at least some training in crime scenes. Therefore he is likely to be careful about preserving the location of items and putting things back as he found them. Fleet seems to be something of a stickler for detail and would, I think, also be likely to replace items. John, on the other hand, knew the chair had been there for some (unknown) period of time. In addition, I expect he was in no frame of mind to be thinking about details like crime scene preservation.

In regard to the enhanced 911 tape, the final four seconds of the 911 tape was enhanced sufficiently by Aerospace Corporation to hear Burke's voice on it, and that proves Burke was downstairs talking to his parents during the 911 call at 5:52 AM and not upstairs in bed faking sleep. The Ramseys lied to investigators about Burke's whereabouts.

Aerospace Corporation, besides being a leading defense contractor, has facilities at El Segundo to train law enforcement personnel from all over the country in high tech matters. The credibility of Aerospace Corporation's scientists and engineers is unquestioned. The two engineers at Aerospace, Mike Epstein and Jim Roeder, who enhanced those final four seconds on the 911 tape, listened to the results of their work and verified with BPD Detective Mellissa Hickman that Burke's voice was on the tape. That's more than enough verification for me and any other reasonable person. Burke's voice is on the 911 tape and the Ramseys are caught in another bare-faced lie, this time on tape, trying to shield Burke.

BlueCrab

To my knowledge all Aerospace has said is they stand by (behind?) their work. None of this has been verified by any independent source or even Aerospace itself. If you have a quote directly from Hickman I'd be interested in reading it. Until it is verified I'm not prepared to rely on the veracity of people like Thomas who have already demonstrated their willingness to bend facts and twist the truth in order to create a case against the Ramseys.

 

[tipper]

...
Either way, they were a very wealthy family, and it seems odd that they would not get around to fixing a broken window because they seemed a bit pedantic about stuff like that. Just my opinion though.

Funny, I see them as just the opposite. To me they seem kind slap-dash and casual about a lot of things. Their flashlights usually don't work because the batteries need replacing, they are frequently late for their own self-selected departure times, Patsy dribbles her clothes around the bedroom. None of that suggests to me they would be sticklers for repairing a window that doesn't affect their daily life and can't be seen by the public.

 

[BlueCrab]

One assumes French had at least some training in crime scenes. Therefore he is likely to be careful about preserving the location of items and putting things back as he found them. Fleet seems to be something of a stickler for detail and would, I think, also be likely to replace items. John, on the other hand, knew the chair had been there for some (unknown) period of time. In addition, I expect he was in no frame of mind to be thinking about details like crime scene preservation.

tipper,

You just helped to prove my point. John moved the chair, AND DIDN'T PUT IT BACK.

Officer French didn't have to "put things back where he found them". THE CHAIR WASN'T IN FRONT OF THE DOOR WHEN FRENCH WAS THERE.

And neither did Fleet White "because he's a stickler for details" have to move the chair and then put it back where he found it. THE CHAIR WASN'T IN FRONT OF THE DOOR WHEN FLEET WAS THERE.

John had to have been the first one in the room for him to have been the one who moved the chair.

John is caught in a significant lie which proves he was in the trainroom prior to the 911 call at 5:52 AM. And if John was downstairs in the trainroom and lying about it, you can bet your last nickel that John had SEARCHED THE BASEMENT and had found JonBenet's body prior to the 911 call.

BlueCrab