Broken Window - to stage or not to stage?

[Toltec]

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I go down, I say, ooh, that door

11 is blocked. I move the chair and went in the room.

12 LOU SMIT: So you couldn't have gotten in

13 without moving the chair?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Correct.

15 LOU SMIT: And the door was opened or closed?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was opened.

undefinedSmit's question should be "And the door was OPEN or CLOSED?"....not OPENED...it's confusing to me.

17 LOU SMIT: The door was opened?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: correct.

19 LOU SMIT: Okay.









.







25 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I had to move the chair.

0282



7 LOU SMIT: Because that would have been

.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was blocked. He'd

12 have to move something to get into the room.

13 LOU SMIT: And he would have had to move

14 it back, if he was in there trying to get out, is

15 that correct?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.



24 LOU SMIT: But it was your impression that

25 that chair was blocking that door?

0283

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. The chair and something

2 else. But it certainly wasn't the Easter baskets.

3 They were sitting there on the drum table. So I

4 never touched them. I just moved the chair and

5 went in.

Just looking at this picture, it doesn't

13 appear to me that that chair had anything to do

14 with the door.

Well...John is convincing Lou Smit that the chair has nothing to do with the crime.

 

[BlueCrab]

To my knowledge all Aerospace has said is they stand by (behind?) their work. None of this has been verified by any independent source or even Aerospace itself. If you have a quote directly from Hickman I'd be interested in reading it. Until it is verified I'm not prepared to rely on the veracity of people like Thomas who have already demonstrated their willingness to bend facts and twist the truth in order to create a case against the Ramseys.

tipper,

There are numerous sources besides Steve Thomas who verify the voices on the final four enhanced seconds of the 911 tape. For instance:

Pg 372 of PMPT pb:

"On April 23, Detective Melissa Hickman returned to Boulder from the Aerospace Corporation in El Segundo, California. In addition to its work for the government, the company did sound and photographic enhancement on a nonprofit basis for law enforcement agencies, using state-of-the-art technology. Hickman had taken the audio tape of Patsy Ramsey's 911 call to the Southern California firm. The tape contained a few additional seconds of sound along with Patsy's frantic call for help, sounds that may have been recorded when she replaced the headset improperly. The police had been unable to decipher the additional sounds.

"In February, Detective Trujillo had sent a copy of the tape to the U.S. Secret Service, but their attempt to enhance the recording had not succeeded. Aerospace used a different technology, and voices in the background could now be heard more clearly.

"Hickman listened to the tape and wrote down what she had heard.

"Help me Jesus, help me Jesus." That was clearly Patsy's voice. Then, in the distance, there was another voice, which sounded like JonBenet's brother.

"Please, what do I do?" Burke asked.

"We're not speaking to you," Hickman heard John Ramsey say.

Patsy screamed again. "Help me Jesus, help me Jesus."

"And then, more clearly, Burke said, "What DID you find?" (The emphasis was on the word DID.)

BlueCrab

 

[sissi]

Thank you Tipper,
I found it, I guess I was looking in the "wrong" area.

18 MIKE KANE: Okay. And then I think you

19 said you did go in the basement to see how

20 (INAUDIBLE) Could you like just picture that scene

21 again and walk me through it?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, when I came down, I

23 mean, one of the things I noticed, okay, that door

24 is still blocked?

25 MIKE KANE: What do you mean it was blocked?

There seemed to be some confusion..Kane's inaudible response..

"to see how someone got through if the door was still blocked"..Maybe?
Meaning John would reply..." you want me to answer if it's still blocked?"
and Kane would then ask again..more clearly " What do you mean it was blocked?"

This time with no STILL ..if this isn't the case, why the question mark after John's comment?

 

[BlueCrab]

What difference does it make if the door was "blocked", or the door was "still blocked"? It's irrelevant. In either event the door to the trainroom was blocked by the chair and John admits he moved the chair to get in.

Being the one who moved the chair to get in puts John Ramsey in the basement before Officer French and Fleet White. Thus, John lied when he said he didn't search the basement looking for JonBenet. He searched the basement alright, just like any other father would have, and he likely FOUND JonBenet. It was probably around 4:00 AM when he found her. The clandestine cell phone calls and the staging followed and the coverup was born.

The chair proves John was in the basement before the 911 call was made at 5:52 AM. John lying about not being in the basement strongly suggests he had found JonBenet prior to the 911 call.

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

tipper,

There are numerous sources besides Steve Thomas who verify the voices on the final four enhanced seconds of the 911 tape. For instance:

Pg 372 of PMPT pb:

"On April 23, Detective Melissa Hickman returned to Boulder from the Aerospace Corporation in El Segundo, California. ...
...
"Help me Jesus, help me Jesus." That was clearly Patsy's voice. Then, in the distance, there was another voice, which sounded like JonBenet's brother.

"Please, what do I do?" Burke asked.

"We're not speaking to you," Hickman heard John Ramsey say.

Patsy screamed again. "Help me Jesus, help me Jesus."

"And then, more clearly, Burke said, "What DID you find?" (The emphasis was on the word DID.)

BlueCrab

Nope, no good. Schiller got his info either from Thomas directly or from Shapiro who got his info from Thomas.

http://thehistoryvault.tripod.com/02291999feedingfrenzy-bw.htm


"Schiller relied heavily on the uncorroborated statements of Jeff Shapiro. Some statements from Hunter and Thomas that appear as verbatim quotations are actually just recollections from Shapiro. "

 

[BlueCrab]

Nope, no good. Schiller got his info either from Thomas directly or from Shapiro who got his info from Thomas.

http://thehistoryvault.tripod.com/02291999feedingfrenzy-bw.htm


"Schiller relied heavily on the uncorroborated statements of Jeff Shapiro. Some statements from Hunter and Thomas that appear as verbatim quotations are actually just recollections from Shapiro. "

tipper,

Larry Schiller's PMPT came out in late 1999, right after the Ramsey GJ permanently adjourned. Schiller interviewed over 500 people for his book and he had numerous sources, including all of the police files. He didn't have to rely on Thomas for facts.

Steve Thomas resigned (or was fired?) in August of 1998 and was working as a carpenter by the time PMPT was given a final editing and published over one year later. Thomas wrote his book (or hardback editorial?) in 2000.

 

[tipper]

What difference does it make if the door was "blocked", or the door was "still blocked"? It's irrelevant. In either event the door to the trainroom was blocked by the chair and John admits he moved the chair to get in.

You'll have to ask Toltec.

Being the one who moved the chair to get in puts John Ramsey in the basement before Officer French and Fleet White. Thus, John lied when he said he didn't search the basement looking for JonBenet. He searched the basement alright, just like any other father would have, and he likely FOUND JonBenet. It was probably around 4:00 AM when he found her. The clandestine cell phone calls and the staging followed and the coverup was born.

The chair proves John was in the basement before the 911 call was made at 5:52 AM. John lying about not being in the basement strongly suggests he had found JonBenet prior to the 911 call.

BlueCrab

John says he was in the basement in the <7:30-8:00 range. After the technicians were there. Unless you have French's and White's statements saying there was no chair in the doorway, I don't see how you can say you have "proof" of anything. Did they go through the doorway? Was there a chair? Did they move a chair? Did they put a chair back in front of the door? I haven't seen any sourced answers to those questions.

 

[BlueCrab]

John says he was in the basement in the <7:30-8:00 range. After the technicians were there. Unless you have French's and White's statements saying there was no chair in the doorway, I don't see how you can say you have "proof" of anything. Did they go through the doorway? Was there a chair? Did they move a chair? Did they put a chair back in front of the door? I haven't seen any sourced answers to those questions.

tipper,

My source is John Ramsey.

John Ramsey said he had to move the chair to get into the trainroom. Therefore, John Ramsey was the first person to go into the trainroom, followed by Officer French at 6:05 AM and Fleet White at 6:20 AM.

 

[Britt]

Regardless of which details John may have been lying about, it seems clear that either:

he did not consider the train room /window important or related to the crime; or

he was trying to remove the train room from consideration in the crime-solving.

Either way, WHY?

 

[sissi]

Regardless of which details John may have been lying about, it seems clear that either:

he did not consider the train room /window important or related to the crime; or

he was trying to remove the train room from consideration in the crime-solving.

Either way, WHY?

I believe John is telling the truth, and is as confounded by the door being blocked as the rest of us. Why, he is thinking, if the cops went down there, if Fleet went down there, is this door blocked? Surely if they went into that room it should not have been blocked for his visit! Is he wondering if Fleet blocked it after taking his walk through? Too bad there are no pictures , or are there, of this blocked door? We do know that Fleet admittedly opened the door to the wine cellar, and relatched it. Perhaps Fleet likes to leave things the way HE finds them?

 

[BlueCrab]

I believe John is telling the truth, and is as confounded by the door being blocked as the rest of us. Why, he is thinking, if the cops went down there, if Fleet went down there, is this door blocked? Surely if they went into that room it should not have been blocked for his visit! Is he wondering if Fleet blocked it after taking his walk through? Too bad there are no pictures , or are there, of this blocked door? We do know that Fleet admittedly opened the door to the wine cellar, and relatched it. Perhaps Fleet likes to leave things the way HE finds them?

sissi,

You can alibi for John til the cows come home -- but the facts remain the same. John admits he was the one who moved the chair from in front of the door. Therefore John was the first person into the trainroom that morning. The chair was not blocking the door when Officer French searched the room at 6:05 AM and neither was it blocking the door when Fleet White searched the room at 6:20 AM.

The moved chair proves John Ramsey was in the trainroom that morning BEFORE French and White were in there. Thus, John lied to the investigators when he said he didn't search the basement prior to the 911 call at 5:52 AM.

BlueCrab

 

[Voice of Reason]

sissi,

You can alibi for John til the cows come home -- but the facts remain the same. John admits he was the one who moved the chair from in front of the door. Therefore John was the first person into the trainroom that morning. The chair was not blocking the door when Officer French searched the room at 6:05 AM and neither was it blocking the door when Fleet White searched the room at 6:20 AM.

The moved chair proves John Ramsey was in the trainroom that morning BEFORE French and White were in there. Thus, John lied to the investigators when he said he didn't search the basement prior to the 911 call at 5:52 AM.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

I understand what you are saying, and it makes good sense, BUT, it only works if you can demonstrate that Fleet White and Officer French stated that there was no chair blocking the door. Silence is not good enough, since none of us have official statements from French or White. Do you have a source for this information?

 

[Zman]

sissi,

You can alibi for John til the cows come home -- but the facts remain the same. John admits he was the one who moved the chair from in front of the door. Therefore John was the first person into the trainroom that morning. The chair was not blocking the door when Officer French searched the room at 6:05 AM and neither was it blocking the door when Fleet White searched the room at 6:20 AM.

The moved chair proves John Ramsey was in the trainroom that morning BEFORE French and White were in there. Thus, John lied to the investigators when he said he didn't search the basement prior to the 911 call at 5:52 AM.

BlueCrab

Blue Crab why are you so willing to believe Officer French or FW? The BPD (which OF is a member of) are pretty much a notch above secruity gards with no real crime scene experience. For all I know French was afraid to even go down the basement for fear of encountering a dangerous felon with a weapon. Maybe he just kind of peeped down the stairs and came back. FW is the one who admits he searched the wine cellar first and saw nothing. Maybe he told John nothing was in there. Later John finds JBR in wine cellar with FW right behind him. Who's the real liar Blue Crab?

And about the 911 enhanced tape of the call. I still think it was just an attempt by the BDP to put pressure on the Ramsey's. I don't think they ever heard or rasied any voices at all. Just another botched/failed police tatic by Colorado's finest.

 

[Toltec]

I believe John is telling the truth, and is as confounded by the door being blocked as the rest of us. Why, he is thinking, if the cops went down there, if Fleet went down there, is this door blocked? Surely if they went into that room it should not have been blocked for his visit! Is he wondering if Fleet blocked it after taking his walk through? Too bad there are no pictures , or are there, of this blocked door? We do know that Fleet admittedly opened the door to the wine cellar, and relatched it. Perhaps Fleet likes to leave things the way HE finds them?

But John said the door was STILL BLOCKED! What does he mean by that? Does he mean that he was aware of the Officer and Fleet White's trip to the basement? Does he try to explain to Lou Smit or rather does he try to blame Officer French and Fleet for placing the chair back where they found it, therefore supporting his story of going down to the basement after they did and not BEFORE?

 

[BlueCrab]

But John said the door was STILL BLOCKED! What does he mean by that? Does he mean that he was aware of the Officer and Fleet White's trip to the basement? Does he try to explain to Lou Smit or rather does he try to blame Officer French and Fleet for placing the chair back where they found it, therefore supporting his story of going down to the basement after they did and not BEFORE?

Toltec,

That's not likely, but it is a possibility. However, please answer this: When John went into the trainroom he said he found the window open, and he closed and locked it.

Officer Rick French entered the basement at 6:05 AM looking for a possible place of entry (and perhaps an intruder). He found none. There were only two windows in the entire basement -- the one in the trainroom and the one in the powder room at the bottom of the basement stairs. If the trainroom window had been open, that would have been a significant clue and would have been reported by French. (And I hope no one rebuts this post with a derogatory comment about Rick French's qualifications. Rick is a college grad and a grad of the police academy. He knew what to look for.)

Fleet White entered the trainroom 15 minutes later and didn't notice any window open either. Fleet carried a notebook and jotted down everything of significance that morning, butapparently made no note of a chair in front of the door nor an open window, or he would have said something to a detective.

Therefore, by his own admission John Ramsey was not only the person who removed the chair from in front of the trainroom door, but by his own admission he was also the person who noted the trainroom window ajar, and closed it. The chair wasn't in front of the door when French and White entered the room; and the window was closed and locked when French and White were in the room.

These two events together is compelling evidence that John Ramsey was in the trainroom BEFORE both Officer French and Fleet White.

John Ramsey lied to the investigators; he HAD been in the trainroom prior to the 911 call.

BlueCrab

 

[Zman]

Toltec,



Officer Rick French entered the basement at 6:05 AM looking for a possible place of entry (and perhaps an intruder). He found none. There were only two windows in the entire basement -- the one in the trainroom and the one in the powder room at the bottom of the basement stairs. If the trainroom window had been open, that would have been a significant clue and would have been reported by French. (And I hope no one rebuts this post with a derogatory comment about Rick French's qualifications. Rick is a college grad and a grad of the police academy. He knew what to look for.)



BlueCrab

Gee, I did not know RF was such a criminal mastermind. Can't imagine how he missed a dead girl in the basement. Guess he missed that class at school.

 

[Voice of Reason]

BlueCrab,

Simple question: Where is the proof that neither French nor White did not notice a chair blocking the door?

Silence or a lack of official statements by French or White is not valid proof, IMHO.

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

Simple question: Where is the proof that neither French nor White did not notice a chair blocking the door?

Silence or a lack of official statements by French or White is not valid proof, IMHO.

VoR,

Silence is a valid consideration. If French or White didn't see a chair blocking the door, what would they make a statement about? Nothing happened!

 

[Voice of Reason]

VoR,

Silence is a valid consideration. If French or White didn't see a chair blocking the door, what would they make a statement about? Nothing happened!

French and White were looking for a possible entry point. If they saw the chair blocking the door, that's more reason NOT to mention it, since it removes that room as an entry point, wouldn't you agree?

Not trying to give you a hard time, but my point is that we really don't know exactly what French and White's experience in the basement was for sure...

 

[BlueCrab]

French and White were looking for a possible entry point. If they saw the chair blocking the door, that's more reason NOT to mention it, since it removes that room as an entry point, wouldn't you agree?

VoR,

Possibly, but not likely. French and White had separate motives for searching the basement.

Officer French was looking for a point of entry, AND he was clearing the basement of harboring a possible perpetrator who may have gotten trapped down there.

Fleet White was looking for JonBenet, and was reportedly calling her name as he searched. Fleet's personal experience with his own missing daughter (who was found hiding in a closet) certainly prompted his spontaneous searching of the house.

The trainroom constituted a large part of the basement, so I doubt either man, even if a chair was blocking the door, would have skipped searching it.

For instance, the wine cellar, even with the door latched from the outside, was searched by Fleet White at least to the extent of opening the door and peering into the tiny darkened room. And Officer French tugged at the stuck door, but with it latched from the outside he knew it was impossible for a perpetrator to be in the room, so he didn't force the door open. Not so with the chair blocking the door to the trainroom; a person may have been able to pull the chair close to the door from the opposite side.

But IMO those hypotheses are moot.

It's rather compelling that John was in the trainroom before Officer French and Fleet White because John admits moving the chair from in front of the door. The chair needs to be moved only ONCE. And John admits closing and latching the window in the trainroom. Officer French would have noticed the open window if he had been in the trainroom ahead of John. French made no note of an open window -- the exact thing he was in the basement looking for.

Common sense tells us John was likely in the trainroom prior to the 911 call, and he lied about it to the investigators. The chair and the window clinch it for me, even without testimony from French and White. The long list of Ramsey lies and obfuscations beginning on day one and continuing to this day have set a pattern that has destroyed Ramsey credibility. Neither John nor Patsy are believable.

BlueCrab