Broken Window - to stage or not to stage?

[txsvicki]

I think it is just awful that no one, the parents, the friends, or the police claim to have searched that house from top to bottom and turned on lights to actually look for Jon Benet just in case she were still in the home. I can't believe that police anywhere, with any training, would just accept a ransom note or not have any plans in place for securing a home when a kidnapping or abduction took place.

 

[Lacy Wood]

Blue Crab.... You note here that JR said in an interview he found the window down there partially open and closed it...also you have pointed out that this appears to place him in the room before the visits by FW and the officer, since they did not report seeing the window open. What I wonder about is that if JR wanted to suggest an intruder, it seems as if he would want to promote the issue of "open window" right away, maybe even opening it, if diverting attention from family was on his mind. In your theory involving kids and coverup, how does this fit in?

 

[sissi]

I think it is just awful that no one, the parents, the friends, or the police claim to have searched that house from top to bottom and turned on lights to actually look for Jon Benet just in case she were still in the home. I can't believe that police anywhere, with any training, would just accept a ransom note or not have any plans in place for securing a home when a kidnapping or abduction took place.

I agree! Once, many years ago, I was "sitting" for my sister's poodle, it was late , I was going around locking up for the night and noticed "fifi" was gone. In a panic I called for her , ran up and down the stairs, looked under every bed, inside every closet,ran out to search the backyard, eventually I found her curled up in the basement next to the furnace. However, there was no ransom note. Isn't it amazing how much that ransom note changed what could have been a rather ordinary crime? Who would have known that it would have been that "powerful"!?

 

[Cranberry]

But John said the door was STILL BLOCKED! What does he mean by that? Does he mean that he was aware of the Officer and Fleet White's trip to the basement? Does he try to explain to Lou Smit or rather does he try to blame Officer French and Fleet for placing the chair back where they found it, therefore supporting his story of going down to the basement after they did and not BEFORE?

It seems like JR is referring to an early am picture (#71) in which the drum table is blocking the doorway on the inside of the threshold. "Still blocked" not by the chair ouside which he moved but by the drum table inside? It is very confusing.

 

[Toltec]

Toltec,

That's not likely, but it is a possibility. However, please answer this: When John went into the trainroom he said he found the window open, and he closed and locked it.

Officer Rick French entered the basement at 6:05 AM looking for a possible place of entry (and perhaps an intruder). He found none. There were only two windows in the entire basement -- the one in the trainroom and the one in the powder room at the bottom of the basement stairs. If the trainroom window had been open, that would have been a significant clue and would have been reported by French. (And I hope no one rebuts this post with a derogatory comment about Rick French's qualifications. Rick is a college grad and a grad of the police academy. He knew what to look for.)

Fleet White entered the trainroom 15 minutes later and didn't notice any window open either. Fleet carried a notebook and jotted down everything of significance that morning, butapparently made no note of a chair in front of the door nor an open window, or he would have said something to a detective.

Therefore, by his own admission John Ramsey was not only the person who removed the chair from in front of the trainroom door, but by his own admission he was also the person who noted the trainroom window ajar, and closed it. The chair wasn't in front of the door when French and White entered the room; and the window was closed and locked when French and White were in the room.

These two events together is compelling evidence that John Ramsey was in the trainroom BEFORE both Officer French and Fleet White.

John Ramsey lied to the investigators; he HAD been in the trainroom prior to the 911 call.

BlueCrab

I'm in agreement with you BlueCrab but what I was questioning is this statement..."The door was STILL BLOCKED."

What can you make of that statement? It is an important statement because Lou Smit had concerns about the chair blocking the entrance to the train room. My reasoning for this concern is that Lou Smit knew that French and White had entered the room prior to John's admission of initially entering the room after they did. If Lou Smit knew that French and White testified to not seeing a chair blocking the trainroom...then LS was somehow trying to trip up John.

 

[BlueCrab]

Blue Crab.... You note here that JR said in an interview he found the window down there partially open and closed it...also you have pointed out that this appears to place him in the room before the visits by FW and the officer, since they did not report seeing the window open. What I wonder about is that if JR wanted to suggest an intruder, it seems as if he would want to promote the issue of "open window" right away, maybe even opening it, if diverting attention from family was on his mind. In your theory involving kids and coverup, how does this fit in?

Lacy Wood,

IMO John Ramsey came upon this crime scene after most of the staging had been completed by the "children" (in quotes because one of them may have been 20 or 21 years old). When John observed the open window with the blue suitcase under it, staged by the kids, he may have thought it looked too corny and staged, so he shut and latched the window. This would have been about 4 AM, some 2 hours before the 911 call was made. When interviewed in 1998, John slipped and recalled closing the window, not thinking fast enough about Officer French having already been in the trainroom looking for a point of entry and who would have for certain noted an open window. Thus, John was caught in another lie.

BNlueCrab

 

[BlueCrab]

I'm in agreement with you BlueCrab but what I was questioning is this statement..."The door was STILL BLOCKED."

What can you make of that statement?

Toltec,

I don't know what to think of it for sure. STILL BLOCKED implies it was blocked the last time he saw it. IMO John Ramsey was rattled by the interview questions at this point and he began to obfuscate, most of it not making much sense.

For instance, he said that no one could have gotten through the door without moving the chair, but comes back later and tries to explain how the intruder likely pulled the chair up against the door from the opposite side while escaping through the basement window -- a window he claims he closed and latched himself during the time he allegedly snuck downstairs by himself. John lies to try to coverup a previous lie and the hole he's digging just gets deeper and more confusing.

I doubt if John himself knows what he meant by the door being STILL BLOCKED. Obfuscations are designed to be confusing and senseless to everyone so as to mask a lie.

BlueCrab

 

[Zman]

Officer French, Officer French. All this Officer French nonsense. French reported nothing because he saw nothing, because he did a disasterous first search of the house. I'll bet he'd tell you that too. Then every officer of the BPD who entered that house made the same mistake.

The only documented liar is FW who said he looked in the body room first and saw nothing.

 

[sissi]

Officer French, Officer French. All this Officer French nonsense. French reported nothing because he saw nothing, because he did a disasterous first search of the house. I'll bet he'd tell you that too. Then every officer of the BPD who entered that house made the same mistake.

The only documented liar is FW who said he looked in the body room first and saw nothing.

Why do you think Fleet would lie about opening that door and not seeing the body? Would it be that he wanted to have a reason for his prints being found on the door? What about picking up the tape after John found the body, was that to serve the same purpose? Going down there first alone and not asking for company, going down again after being told to NOT go and to not allow anyone else to go , could be clues. Are there clues in his behaviors that suggest to you that he is guilty? He did make certain he touched everything, any and all prints , footprints, fingerprints, palm prints, of his would be excused. However, it's not his dna! Were his guests swabbed?

 

[Lacy Wood]

Just a thought regarding a couple posts here....I have tended to think that Fleet White is the one whose reactions seem most normal to the murder. I think he was emotionally shaken but possibly the most analytical person on the scene that morning. He was then enraged and suspicious in Atlanta when he saw noncooperation by the parents. Another thread here has mentioned the Ramseys and Pughs dealing with his confrontations on that issue...it sounds to me like the way a frustrated innocent person who wanted justice for JB would act. In fact, I believe subsequent actions by FW are motivated by his complete disillusionment with both LE and the family and he is simply frustrated and embittered.

Speculation and conjecture are what we all do here, of course...and there are at least two reasons he might not have seen the body in addition to just overlooking it in the poor light where it was found: 1. It was moved closer to the door later to be more visible 2. It wasn't yet in the room.

 

[Zman]

Speculation and conjecture are what we all do here, of course...and there are at least two reasons he might not have seen the body in addition to just overlooking it in the poor light where it was found: 1. It was moved closer to the door later to be more visible 2. It wasn't yet in the room.

Although it's hard to be 100% sure of anything regarding this case I'm 99% sure no one moved the body that morning. There is just to great a risk at being caught. Being caught moving the body would be very incriminating and just way to much of a risk even for the most desperate person.

I find nothing in FW's demeanor other than someone trying to augment the already formed opinion of the BPD.

 

[BlueCrab]

Just a thought regarding a couple posts here....I have tended to think that Fleet White is the one whose reactions seem most normal to the murder. I think he was emotionally shaken but possibly the most analytical person on the scene that morning. He was then enraged and suspicious in Atlanta when he saw noncooperation by the parents. Another thread here has mentioned the Ramseys and Pughs dealing with his confrontations on that issue...it sounds to me like the way a frustrated innocent person who wanted justice for JB would act. In fact, I believe subsequent actions by FW are motivated by his complete disillusionment with both LE and the family and he is simply frustrated and embittered.

Speculation and conjecture are what we all do here, of course...and there are at least two reasons he might not have seen the body in addition to just overlooking it in the poor light where it was found: 1. It was moved closer to the door later to be more visible 2. It wasn't yet in the room.

Lacy Wood,

Excellent post. That's the way I look at the Fleet White issue. In fact, I'd take it one step farther. I think Fleet White knows it was a Ramsey who killed JonBenet.

When Fleet looked into the wine cellar at 6:20 AM, despite the darkened room, the body wasn't there and he insists that if it was there he would have seen it because of the white blanket. When he looked into the room at 1:05 PM with John Ramsey the body was there, right in plain view near the door. Fleet KNOWS John moved the body at some point later that morning. Therefore, Fleet White knows a Ramsey killed JonBenet. The Ramseys ensuing lack of cooperation with the investigation frustrated Fleet White, which the Ramseys conveniently turned against Fleet with comments such as "the strange behaviors of Fleet White".

The Ramseys lack of decency in this coverup knows no bounds.

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

Fleet went down at 9:20 for a second time?

 

[Britt]

Obfuscations are designed to be confusing and senseless to everyone so as to mask a lie.

Exactly. IMO the Ramseys were deliberately doing all they could to create confusion and contaminate the crime scene both physically (by inviting friends over) and verbally in police interviews. Unfortunately, incompetent police work helped them in this regard.

Bluecrab and Lacy Wood - great posts re Fleet White. HE wasn't the one with his child's dead body in his basement. The Ramseys called him to come over that morning. Maybe the Ramseys were trying to cast suspicion upon White or the other friends, or at least use their presence and physical evidence to confuse/contaminate the crime scene. The Ramseys were the ones with a body in the basement. How absurd to try to implicate one of the guests THEY summoned.

 

[Toltec]

Fleet went down at 9:20 for a second time?

Fleet White went downstairs around 6am...and again with John around 1pm.

Fleet is convinced that he did not see the body when he opened the wine cellar door...and anybody can spot a white blanket in total darkness. You have to guess since he was looking for a light switch...his eyes adjusted to the darkness of the room in which he certainly would have noticed the white blanket.

 

[sissi]

We have to guess he couldn't find the light switch, is this the same light switch he found on the 23rd to retrieve wine?
I can understand his not being a suspect, however claims that he is "normal" may be going a bit far.
Does anyone else in this case have "old family friends" accusing them of being involved in child *advertiser censored* rings?
I've never had any of my children hide from me so long that it required a 911 call. Sure they play, what 30 ..40 seconds before they start giggling and ya' tell the dog to find them. His "game" sounded more serious!
My husband has never helped "toilet" a girl child in the neighborhood either.
Most of us carry car insurance and would fear the consequences of not showing up for an assigned court appearance.
When joining friends for recreation ,most wouldn't put the tab on their friend consistently, this is "using".
It's quite easy to profile Fleet as sociopathic, however, I do agree ,he isn't the killer. His only concern was that he would be considered a suspect, he was looking out only for himself hence the reason for his rage. He was the one who "threw" his friends under that bus, he knows darn well they didn't harm their child.

 

[tipper]

Fleet White went downstairs around 6am...and again with John around 1pm.

Fleet is convinced that he did not see the body when he opened the wine cellar door...and anybody can spot a white blanket in total darkness. You have to guess since he was looking for a light switch...his eyes adjusted to the darkness of the room in which he certainly would have noticed the white blanket.

That's what I thought. But if that's not a typo and he went down 3 times (6ish 9:20 and 1) I would find it highly suspicious even though I'd not previously considered him a serious suspect.

 

[BlueCrab]

That's what I thought. But if that's not a typo and he went down 3 times (6ish 9:20 and 1) I would find it highly suspicious even though I'd not previously considered him a serious suspect.

tipper,

That was a typo. I typed 9:20 instead of 6:20.

Fleet went into the basement by himself at 6:20 AM and with John at 1:05 PM.

 

[Zman]

That's what I thought. But if that's not a typo and he went down 3 times (6ish 9:20 and 1) I would find it highly suspicious even though I'd not previously considered him a serious suspect.

Just can't help wonder how anyone really knows who went down the basement and how many times. We only know what people tell us. Which is only what they think they know or what they want us to know. If FW went down the basement 5 times who would really know? Its not like the BPD was keeping a list.

It's amazing how far some who are so hell bent on hanging the Ramseys will stretch the truth, bend the lines and just plain make things up.

 

[RedChief]

Hi, sissi. Glad to see you're still here and, as yet, unblocked.

Salient features of John's 1998 interview with Kane and Smit, repeated below for ready reference (not necessarily in the correct order):

9 JOHN RAMSEY: With the lights off at night
10 it would have been hazardous because there's a lot
11 of junk piled in here. This door was kind of
12 blocked with boxes and a little chair. And you
13 could move the chair and then walk right in. But
14 it would have been pitch black; it would have been
15 tough.

13 LOU SMIT: And he would have had to move
14 it back, if he was in there trying to get out, is
15 that correct?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
17 LOU SMIT: So that's not very logical as
18 far as --
19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it is. I mean if this
20 person is that bizarrely clever to have not left
21 any good evidence, but left all these little funny
22 little clues around, they certain are clever
23 enough to pull the chair back when they left.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, when I came down, I
23 mean, one of the things I noticed, okay, that door
24 is still blocked?
25 MIKE KANE: What do you mean it was
0172
1 blocked?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, there were some boxes
3 and there was like a barstool kind of thing
4 sitting there. It wasn't obvious to me that
5 anybody had gone through because I had to move the
6 chair to get in, which I did.

Some observations: JR said, "This door was kind of blocked with boxes and a little chair. And you could move the chair and then walk right in." Apparently, the chair was not ponderously heavy. MK asked, "What do you mean it was blocked?" JR replied, "Well, there were some boxes and there was like a barstool kind of thing sitting there." I assume the "little chair" and the "barstool kind of thing" were one and the same. JR said, "It wasn't obvious to me that anybody had gone through because I had to move the chair to get in..." With this statement, John is not saying the chair blocking the doorway convinced him that no intruder had passed through it, just that he/she had not obviously gone through that doorway. He entertained the possibility that the clever intruder, who left "all these funny little clues around", was clever enough to pull the chair back when he/she left.

Some questions: What were all the "funny little clues"? How did it benefit the intruder to replace the chair (barstool?) upon passing through the doorway? A "little chair" blocking a doorway will bamboozle the investigators? What is "clever" about this maneuver?

Why was the doorway to a room frequented by Burke blocked by a chair? Is it possible that the "little chair" was placed there in front of the doorway to the train room by the last person to explore the basement (FW?) before John went down?

Is it possible that the "little chair" had been blocking the hallway leading to the laundry area, and that in order to traverse the hallway to the laundry area, the "little chair" was moved to the position where John found it? Well, gee, he did say he noticed, "that door is still blocked?"

Does John seemed puzzled by the chair blocking the doorway? Erase the question mark and what do you have?

Answer: The door is yet blocked, but John is not puzzled. So, we have two puzzles: (1.) John finding the doorway blocked after FW and French have been in the basement--BTW, I recollect that PMPT reported that FW entered the train room and surveyed the broken window, found some glass shards and moved the suitcase in the process--and (2.) John being puzzled for some unknown reason to find the chair "still" blocking the doorway.

Maybe John expressed puzzlement regarding the chair in the doorway because he'd anticipated evidence of an intruder entering and/or exiting through the window.

So, yes, it is important to understand John's puzzlement and to ascertain when he last encountered the chair in the doorway prior to encountering it when he explored the basement the first time that day between 7:30 and 8:00, as he recollected....with a little help from his interrogators. He said he was only in the basement twice that day (Dec. 26), the second time being in the afternoon when he discovered JB's body.

Don't you wish Mike Kane had asked, "What do mean it was STILL blocked?"

Let's see, was the chair in the train room or in the hallway....oh, never mind; it wasn't on the "inner side"; it was on the "lock side". Better to store a chair and boxes in a hallway than to store them within a room???