Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #14

[news.talk]

Why do you query the timing? Do you think they should've waited for something? I'm not sure when a good time for this would be?

Wow! I sure wouldn't know what to do if I were them...it must have been so awfully hard. How do you essentially let go when there's nothing to let go of, and may very well never be? My heart goes out to all people who have now, or have ever had in the past, such a heartbreaking situation. It's bad enough to lose someone under normal circumstances, but this must be unbearable. While I'm grateful to be blessed and not have had such a thing happen in my family, I pray for deliverance from the broken emotions and pain these families must be suffering. God Bless them all.

As I stated - Was merely wondering if LE shared information with the family, that cannot be made public as it is before the courts, that no bodies *will* be found.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

As I stated - Was merely wondering if LE shared information with the family, that cannot be made public as it is before the courts, that no bodies *will* be found.

Oh....I see! Sorry, must've missed that. Yes, that's a good point for sure.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

As I stated - Was merely wondering if LE shared information with the family, that cannot be made public as it is before the courts, that no bodies *will* be found.

I was just thinking....how could LE share something like that with the family if they're still looking for the victims? Aren't they?

 

[news.talk]

I was just thinking....how could LE share something like that with the family if they're still looking for the victims? Aren't they?

I have not seen anything to suggest they are still actively searching. Doesn't mean they are not.

Victim's family's are privy to details the general public are not officially made aware of.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I have not seen anything to suggest they are still actively searching. Doesn't mean they are not.

Victim's family's are privy to details the general public are not officially made aware of.

I understand that, however, surely LE wouldn't keep searching at a cost to Albertans if they knew the victims wouldn't be found. So...I don't think they would be telling the family they will never be found, and keep going with the search. JMO

 

[otto]

As mentioned, I didn't realize we couldn't copy/paste from a blog. Ric Tripp quoted Dr. Bill Bass who is a Forensic Anthropologist so I assumed the information was correct. I have since responded referencing a couple of links another person posted on Bill Bass, so I'm sure you'll find all the credentials, etc required for validity there. His research is phenomenal. I hope you've had the opportunity to watch the 3 min video Lori McA posted on the "Body Farm"...fabulous. There's also a Forensic Centre dedicated to the decomposition research that is phenomenal...I had no idea! Dr. Bass is actually working on an Atlas of 'stages of decomposition' with pictures of bodies in their various stages of decomposition in order to help Crime Scene investigators get more accurate information from the bodies that are discovered.

The blog remarks were made by Rob Tripp, a crime reporter. He references the University of Tennessee study and links a book and a temperature website. The actual article that he should rely on for his calculations is the article that I linked, which includes the actual formula (linked). The blogger states that the average temp in Calgary in July was 18C, and for the first 24 days of August, the average temp was 17C.

That gives us a working average temp of roughly 17.5 C.

Using the formula, y=1285/x --> y=1285/17.5 --> y=73 days to skeleton. That will happen next week.

The blogger claims that the month of July plus 24 days in August is three times what is necessary for bodies to be reduced to skeleton in Calgary. I have to wonder what formula he used, and how he did his calculations to arrive at that conclusion.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/6551567.Rob_Tripp/blog

Perhaps I'm missing something, as I do not understand the bloggers calculations. This is the information from the University of Tennessee:

"Decomposition is a complicated process, but is primarily dependant on temperature and to a lesser extent on moisture. In our studies we have worked out a simple formula, which describes the soft tissue decomposition process for persons lying on the ground. The formula is y=1285/x (where y is the number of days it takes to become skeletonized or mummified and x is the average temperature in Centigrade during the decomposition process). So, if the average temperature is 10 °C, then 1285/10 = 128.5 days for someone to become skeletonized."

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/zalaczniki/upload617.pdf

Perhaps someone can double check the calculations. Given the average temperatures in July, August, and Sept, is total decomposition roughly 75 days, or is it 1/3 of 55 days ~ 18 days (per the crime reporter blogger).

ETA: someone here wanted to discuss math and physics - sorry, don't remember who. Perhaps that person could double check the calculations of the blogger along with my calculations (with the given formula) and voice an opinion.

 

[Cherchri]

I have shed so many tears for you little Nathan. Rest in peace sweet boy.

 

[otto]

I wonder if they chose a different church because it accommodated more people.

"Rod and Jennifer O'Brien, the loving parents of our little superhero Nathan Kenneth O'Brien, privately celebrated Nathan's life on Thursday, September 4, 2014 at Westside Kings Church, 3939 - 69 Street SW, Calgary, AB."

See more at: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/ca...pid=172366448&fhid=18552#sthash.4Rm7uGZ4.dpuf

"Members of the Calgary church that baptized Nathan O'Brien are praying for the safe return of the five-year-old and his grandparents, who have been missing for more than a week. St. Michael Catholic Community Church held a special prayer service on Monday evening for Nathan and Kathy and Alvin Liknes. It was attended by the family of the three."

http://news.ca.msn.com/canada/nathan-obrien-amber-alert-prayer-vigil-held-for-missing-family

 

[Lalalacasbah]

The O'Briens have one surviving toddler together. The oldest child most likely lives with his mother.

Thanks for clearing that up otto, I forgot the oldest lives with his mom.

Still... trying to have some some sense of normalcy in the household for the toddler might be what they may be trying to do. Toddlers are demanding of your time and overwhelming (I have one myself) as it is, it would be a struggle try to be there to read stories and play with the surviving child while emotionally going through hell over thoughts of the other one. It must be so hard for them.

 

[YYC Lady]

I'm not sure why they chose it for the service, but I know for a fact that the OB's have attended services at Westside on occasion, including at least once after the disappearance.

I think the timing of the memorial is attributed to many factors, the deep faith of the family, the upcoming court appearances for the accused, maybe the counselling provided by clergy and victims services, along with a need to recognize their profound loss. It is also possible that any employment leave that was granted is coming to and end as well.

regardless, I am happy for the family that it was largely un publicized and they were given the opportunity to mourn and remember privately.

 

[otto]

Thanks for clearing that up otto, I forgot the oldest lives with his mom.

Still... trying to have some some sense of normalcy in the household for the toddler might be what they may be trying to do. Toddlers are demanding of your time and overwhelming (I have one myself) as it is, it would be a struggle try to be there to read stories and play with the surviving child while emotionally going through hell over thoughts of the other one. It must be so hard for them.

I'm sure that the two year old is aware of the loss, but he's still a 2 year old. I think the oldest child's mom is making his lunches and looking after his day to day care.

In the murders of cousins Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins; Evansdale Iowa, there were younger siblings that needed to continue on a normal life path, and the parents, although still focused on finding the murderer several years later, had to go forward with life. During World War 2, Jewish babies were smothered to death while their parents hid from the Germans. The parents went on to tell the story ... so they went forward with their lives fast - for survival.

Although no one denies the grief of losing a child, younger siblings have to be treated appropriate for their age, and that does not involve grieving for months ... at least, in my opinion, it doesn't seem like an ideal environment for a toddler. Imagine ... tired grieving parents, two year old gives the laptop a drink by pouring a juice box all over the keyboard ... what happens next. Parents can focus on the live child in front of them, put Nathan to rest, and look to the future. That seems to me to be the healthiest thing to do. They will always cherish the memories of their first born child.

 

[otto]

It's an interesting article. I wonder how hail would relate to decomposition, as there were a couple of good hail storms in Airdrie during July/August.

"Remember that decomposition does not end after the soft tissue has disappeared. The skeleton also has a decompositional rate that is based on the loss of organic (collagen) and inorganic components. Some of the inorganic compounds we use to determine the length of time since death include calcium, potassium and magnesium. As with soft tissue, these leach out of bone at a rate determined primarily by temperature and exposure to moisture. As a general rule, bones, within the first year, will begin to bleach and one may see growth of algae or moss on them. Within the first decade one will expect to see exfoliation and the formation of large cracks in the bone. Roots from nearby vegetation may grow into the bone mass, significant rodent gnawing will be present and the appearance of annual leaf falls is evident."

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/zalaczniki/upload617.pdf

 

[Deleted member 117120]

It's an interesting article. I wonder how hail would relate to decomposition, as there were a couple of good hail storms in Airdrie during July/August.

"Remember that decomposition does not end after the soft tissue has disappeared. The skeleton also has a decompositional rate that is based on the loss of organic (collagen) and inorganic components. Some of the inorganic compounds we use to determine the length of time since death include calcium, potassium and magnesium. As with soft tissue, these leach out of bone at a rate determined primarily by temperature and exposure to moisture. As a general rule, bones, within the first year, will begin to bleach and one may see growth of algae or moss on them. Within the first decade one will expect to see exfoliation and the formation of large cracks in the bone. Roots from nearby vegetation may grow into the bone mass, significant rodent gnawing will be present and the appearance of annual leaf falls is evident."



http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/zalaczniki/upload617.pdf

Who could forget Dr. Arpad Vass from The Body Farm during the Casey Anthony trial. I really admired that man.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I understand that, however, surely LE wouldn't keep searching at a cost to Albertans if they knew the victims wouldn't be found. So...I don't think they would be telling the family they will never be found, and keep going with the search. JMO

It may be that LE told them that they exhausted their "likely" locations, and that a discovery is not forthcoming. If I were in the family's position, I would've held off having a memorial as well. It would be doubly traumatic to have a memorial without remains, and then have them found a week later to then have yet another memorial.

They may have just finally have felt it was time to honor their child and start moving forward into the next chapter of life. It's just one early step...

 

[Linike]

Thanks for clearing that up otto, I forgot the oldest lives with his mom.

Still... trying to have some some sense of normalcy in the household for the toddler might be what they may be trying to do. Toddlers are demanding of your time and overwhelming (I have one myself) as it is, it would be a struggle try to be there to read stories and play with the surviving child while emotionally going through hell over thoughts of the other one. It must be so hard for them.

How could anything be normal?

 

[news.talk]

It may be that LE told them that they exhausted their "likely" locations, and that a discovery is not forthcoming. If I were in the family's position, I would've held off having a memorial as well. It would be doubly traumatic to have a memorial without remains, and then have them found a week later to then have yet another memorial.

They may have just finally have felt it was time to honor their child and start moving forward into the next chapter of life. It's just one early step...

I agree... As I stated before, I am in NO position to judge the decisions of the family, but I can't help but find the timing questionable - As in why now? Has something changed?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I have she'd so many tears for you little Nathan. Rest in peace sweet boy.
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Me too Cherchri, this case just gripped me. Nathan has very similar features (hair, eyes) as my little one has, maybe that's why I clung onto this story so bad and joined WS to discuss. Such an innocent little soul, hope he's resting now.

 

[Deleted member 117120]

I think the memorial by JO and RO is a movement forward in their grieving process and ultimately in their new defined lives for both their surviving children and for themselves as a couple. In showing their love and respect in a tangible way for the son they are honoring his memory with a record of life for Nathan, for their family and for the future. I hope it gave them comfort in some way.

 

[otto]

It may be that LE told them that they exhausted their "likely" locations, and that a discovery is not forthcoming. If I were in the family's position, I would've held off having a memorial as well. It would be doubly traumatic to have a memorial without remains, and then have them found a week later to then have yet another memorial.

They may have just finally have felt it was time to honor their child and start moving forward into the next chapter of life. It's just one early step...

It could also be that the church charges for a memorial and the family was waiting for the fundraising results. A new fundraising link is mentioned in the same article as the memorial (link).

Alternatively, perhaps the announcement by Police Chief Rick Hanson, based on the medical examiner's report, was all that was required for a death certificate to be issued. Once a death certificate has been issued, there can still be a wish, but hope is gone. It's reasonable to wait a couple of months to see if remains are found but, at some point, with a death certificate in hand, it's important to celebrate the lives of the victims.

The last report about police searching for remains was towards the end of August. The link is posted twice way up-thread ... the article also describes officer fatigue. It might be a globe and mail article.

 

[otto]

How could anything be normal?

Life will not be the same, but it should be normal for the living child. No one will forget Nathan, but one day Max will be six years old and then the parents can then dream about who Nathan would have been. It can and should be normal.