CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #5

[Woodland]

dreamwatcher - I like your comment that PK came here to control the path of conversation - very good.

 

[Canadian4]

Why did he leave so abruptly?

I have a feeling he still reads here, just doesn't sign in. MOO.

 

[colette]

I have never read that PK was an actual "suspect' or poi. Do you have a link that names him as a suspect? If a friend of mine had been violently murdered and the case was not solved, I would look at crime forms. We have had other friends and relatives of crime victims join and discuss their cases on here.

Also, in regards to the "young and close" theory. I would think younger than PK, like a teen in the neighborhood.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I have never read that PK was an actual "suspect' or poi. Do you have a link that names him as a suspect? If a friend of mine had been violently murdered and the case was not solved, I would look at crime forms. We have had other friends and relatives of crime victims join and discuss their cases on here.

Also, in regards to the "young and close" theory. I would think younger than PK, like a teen in the neighborhood.

I cannot locate the link at the moment, but PK himself said he had been polygraphed and "had inconsistencies in the polygraph". Would LE take the time, effort and money to polygraph anyone who isn't a possible 'suspect' or a possible 'POI'?

I'll try to locate a link for you later. Maybe in one of the Jon Wells articles.

And regarding "young and close" - yes, a teen is possible of course. Very possible indeed.

---------------

ETA: My mistake - :blushing: the only person really named a "a suspect" was DLS and now we all know that was incorrect on the part of LE. If you look at the Jon Wells articles, it only says that PK was polygraphed and "he had inconsistencies" in the polygraph. To me, that = "failed".

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I have a feeling he still reads here, just doesn't sign in. MOO.

Oh, I agree! I just meant - why did he leave/stop posting so abruptly.

:moo:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

dreamwatcher - I like your comment that PK came here to control the path of conversation - very good.

A very interesting observation dreamwatcher! When PK was still posting here, I think I was too caught up in what he was saying to think about that aspect.

:tyou: for noticing!

 

[colette]

Oh, I agree! I just meant - why did he leave/stop posting so abruptly.

:moo:

I guess he stopped posting because people were looking at him as a suspect instead of a friend of a murder victim. They gave him a polygraph because he found the body. That alone is enough to make you shakey in a polygraph. Inconsistencies does not mean fail, fail means fail. Polygraphs are not proof and can be wrong, they are not allowed in court.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I guess he stopped posting because people were looking at him as a suspect instead of a friend of a murder victim. They gave him a polygraph because he found the body. That alone is enough to make you shakey in a polygraph. Inconsistencies does not mean fail, fail means fail. Polygraphs are not proof and can be wrong, they are not allowed in court.

A few points:

1. Polygraphs are not allowed in court because there are many ways to 'adjust' them - breathing techniques, medications, etc.

2. I respect your opinions here, but kindly respect mine as well. In my very humble opinion, I read "inconsistencies" to mean "failed/lied/was not fully truthful/changed answers/etc".

3. PK was asked again later on (I believe in August on 2011??) to take a second polygraph. We don't know the results of that one. I believe PK was asked to take the second polygraph after DLS was found to be innocent of killing AG.

4. LE has said that AG's killer was someone who knew her, not a stranger to her . PK *seemed* to know AG well. He said they'd shared about 2,000 e-mails and he had access to her home/garage........

We're all here to find justice for AG. I do respect your posts and your thoughts about PK. I have my own thoughts about it all.

 

[Sillybilly]

I have never read that PK was an actual "suspect' or poi. Do you have a link that names him as a suspect? If a friend of mine had been violently murdered and the case was not solved, I would look at crime forms. We have had other friends and relatives of crime victims join and discuss their cases on here.

Also, in regards to the "young and close" theory. I would think younger than PK, like a teen in the neighborhood.

The question surrounding whether POI or suspect crops up a lot. Basically, a POI analogy could be .. had the Avon rep been seen to knock on AG's door that morning, they could be a POI until such time as LE is satisfied they had absolutely nothing to do with anything. If that same Avon rep was known to have a wicked temper and a grudge against the deceased, then they might remain a POI for a longer period of time. If that same POI had made threats or was found in possession of something belonging to the deceased, or had a possible motive, they might be elevated to Suspect status. Whether LE uses that terminology publicly has no bearing on whether a person fits into either category until such time that LE decides it is prudent to make the information public.

Basically PK went from finding AG's body, to being "ruled out .. absolutely" (as per Hrab in one of his early pressers), to subsequently taking a poly that appeared to contain inconsistencies. I don't think we need LE to tellus that he is a POI ... we just don't know if they have elevated him to the category of suspect (IMO, I "suspect" they have )

 

[Sillybilly]

I guess he stopped posting because people were looking at him as a suspect instead of a friend of a murder victim. They gave him a polygraph because he found the body. That alone is enough to make you shakey in a polygraph. Inconsistencies does not mean fail, fail means fail. Polygraphs are not proof and can be wrong, they are not allowed in court.

Lots of people find bodies and undergo polygraphs that don't result in inconsistencies. Biological stressors are factored into the poly by the examiner in the initial setup of the exam. Technically there is no pass or fail ... there are only consistencies or inconsistencies which indicate truthfulness or deception (or inconclusive results). I believe i've mentioned before that the RCMP use polys in their hiring procedure, and obviously the FBI uses them to great extent ... so while they are not allowed in Criminal court, they are accepted in civil proceedings, and relied on fairly extensively by LE as an investigative tool.

JMO

ETA: Legal aspects of the polygraph: (by a polygrapher)

http://www.galianospolygraphe.com/html/legal_aspect_of_the_polygraph.html

 

[Sillybilly]

A snippet from the pre-employment poly administered by the RCMP:

from:
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/recruiting-recrutement/rec/poly-eng.htm

RCMP Pre-Employment Polygraph (PEP) Examination

•Not a lie detector;
•Not a forensic (or criminal) test;
•No pass or fail;
•Only conducted by trained, certified examiner;
•There are no surprise or trick questions; and
•Applicants know the questions they will be asked before the Examination starts.

<bbm>

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

A snippet from the pre-employment poly administered by the RCMP:

from:
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/recruiting-recrutement/rec/poly-eng.htm

<bbm>

But - in the case of a gruesome murder, certainly the people being polygraphed don't know the questions ahead of time......do they?

The people being polygraphed will no doubt assume they'll be asked questions like these:
- did you kill X?

- were you at (scene of crime) on (date of killing)?

- did you harm X?

:moo:


---------------

ETA: I think we're quibbling over semantics here. There is no "pass/fail" in polygraphs so let's call it something else - consistent/inconsistent, good/not-so-good, bang-on/off the mark. No matter how we word it, when someone has inconsistencies that's not really a positive/good/great/wonderful thing.

:hills:

 

[colette]

LE uses the word fail for a polygraph, when someone shows deception on every question. I have seen them do it in the past. To me inconsistencies does not mean fail but everyone can have their own opinion. I don't know PK, I also don't know who killed Audrey. I think that a good sleuth could get more info with "honey" than accusations, maybe he would still be answering our questions.

 

[dreamwatcher]

PK came on this site, and said that he and his wife were very upset that he was a suspect. (If my memory in reading through multiple pages - serves me right)

DW.

 

[roseofsharon]

DNA would not hold up, if I recall he was asked by Emergency Response to go back in, and check for a respons, which he did. Now if the killer, acutally left dna, there would be a mix.
Just asking,.

DW

I know everyone reacts differently during shocking and stressful experiences, but IMO, I still feel that most people would remove themselves from the scene entirely, even to drive down the road in their vehicle to call 911. PK made the call to 911 and then waited in AG's driveway for LE. Why didn't the 911 dispatcher instruct PK to remove himself from possible danger. When PK discovered the body, couldn't the crime have been committed very shortly before and the perp still inside ransacking AG's home. MOO

 

[roseofsharon]

LE uses the word fail for a polygraph, when someone shows deception on every question. I have seen them do it in the past. To me inconsistencies does not mean fail but everyone can have their own opinion. I don't know PK, I also don't know who killed Audrey. I think that a good sleuth could get more info with "honey" than accusations, maybe he would still be answering our questions.

It has been awhile, but if my memory serves me correctly, PK and the people asking questions of him on the AG forum, had a very respectful, as well as good rapport. Questions were asked and he responded and then he just never came back, as far as we know. As a matter of fact, IMO, PK seemed quite willing to clear a lot of our questions up for us. Just MOO.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

As a reminder to all of us, here's a thread where PK kindly took time and answered our questions:

LINK - Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #2 - Page 24 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Quoted from PK's post:

Hey all, once again I must apologize for my absence, but here's what little I can offer on the questions that are buzzing around. Love you guys lots

@ 1010011010
- AG smoked 10-20 smokes per day
- she would definitely smoke in the garage with the door up and (I believe, though I never saw her / asked about it) that she would smoke inside sometimes
- I think she smoked Belmonts&#8230;. no 6N smokes as far as I know
- Actually AG really liked stars and so it wasn't impossible for her to go outside extremely late at night for a smoke to look at the sky and let the dogs run
- I can't think of a single time when I ever saw the garage door open with AG inside. She was extremely diligent at keeping it closed

@ LilyMacBloom
- thank you for so much great info (post 454)! Actually, for your interest, AG was fascinated with the CIA&#8230; I remember her reading memoirs of a CIA agent and she talked about the book for months&#8230; was really fascinated by the redacted portions. "Fair Game" I think was the name of the book? Makes me wonder if there was something more about her past she never mentioned

@ No_Stone_Unturned
- Honestly, there were so few pictures of AG&#8230; especially in her younger years. I can't ever recall seeing something that might indicate a child but that doesn't mean it is impossible.

@ nicgumshoe
- AG's response to a stranger arriving unannounced would vary by time of day. She might ignore them or use the dogs to try and scare them off but she did tell me stories of sitting door-to-door visitors on the bench and talking to them for hours on end&#8230; hehe

@ shadowraiths (#464)
- Yah&#8230; I'm sure lots of people are thinking that&#8230; can't really blame LE for checking me out (as difficult as it has been for my wife and I)

@ No_Stone_Unturned (#477)
- The garage was connected to the house by a door. I'm sorry I can't really comment on whether I think she was dragged out of the house&#8230; when LE had me revisit the garage after her body was removed to try and identify missing objects, I didn't see any streaks between the door to the house and where she was found

@ roseofsharon (#504)
- I can't quite remember the name of the company she bought it from but it was installed late in mid November. I remember she was pretty aggravated with the guy who came to install it because he had been rude to her. I'm not 100% sure how she paid but if I know Audrey it was with cash

@ Hazel (#507 - re AG cancelling coffee)
- Wow! I had missed this before but this is really perplexing me&#8230; why did she email me to tell me she was going??

@ dotr (#520)
- I'm not sure! (For obvious reasons) I didn't go inside the house so I'm not sure where the dogs were confined.

@ dotr (#523)
- Some quick info about the scheduling of time to drop off the cake. I had originally planned to visit AG on Christmas day but she had emailed me a day or two prior to call it off because she was so sick. So, on Christmas day I called her to check in and that's when we set the definite time to get together around 10am on Thursday for me to drop it off. I do find the timing of the vet visit to be an interesting open question&#8230;

@ Hazel (#530)
- Great point!!! When I was in the house a few days later (before the cleaning had started) it didn't seem like two dogs had been unattended in the house for any extended period of time!

@ roseofsharon (#529)
- Haha, even if the dogs knew the scent I would expect them to bark up a storm&#8230; every time I arrived they went wild

@ Hazel (#537)
- Nope&#8230; no way did Aud own a cellphone

@ roseofsharon
- I'm almost certain that Audrey didn't take any RX medications&#8230; She never mentioned it and I never saw any of the expected debris in the kitchen, bathroom, or bedroom

@ sillybilly (#569)
- You and me both! I think it was under two weeks for everything to be wrapped up&#8230; in my recollection the house was sold in under a month

@ No_Stone_Unturned
- I don't think AG had OnStar&#8230; I never rode in the Camaro&#8230;. whenever we were driving somewhere we would take my car but I have loaded/unloaded things for her and I don't remember seeing the "button"

 

[2soccermom]

Perhaps the poly inconsistencies can be explained by some of PKs "reading" of the scene. He indicated in initial reports that he did not immediately recognize, on first encountering AG, that a crime had taken place -- only that she was immobile on the ground. I know this has been hard for many of us to understand, given Hrab's description of the scene as gruesome. But it is not actually uncommon for the psyche to generate a protective response when witness to trauma. The psyche re-writes the scene in the very moment of encountering violence in a way that the rest of the self can process. For my part, I don't find it odd that PK was at once AGs "handyman" AND her young friend; the kind of car she drove, the language she used, the company she both kept and espoused all translate, for me, a woman who was "quite a character" (i mean that to be understood in admiration of the strong and independent person she was). They had an intellectual connection and she probably saw herself as something as a mentor to him equally as he was a man about the house to help with odd jobs she couldn't take on for herself. These kinds of youth-age relations are NOT uncommon among older single women! That she emailed him occasionally and visited with him and his wife socially as much as she might ask him to complete chores for her strikes me as wholly natural.

I too would be on the site if someone close to me (however "close" might be defined) were murdered like AG and I was eager for justice, perhaps understandably MORE invested in that justice than many who didn't know AG personally. I understand why people are suspicious, because PK found her, and because he was so honest about his poly and "discrepencies" -- but honestly, my own thoughts are that we hang on to him BECAUSE LE has given us so little else.

I don't blame PK for disappearing; I wouldn't volunteer more info to be used against me. Nor do I mean to insult anyone who is trying to understand his relationship to AG and to sleuth for justice for her. But I feel really badly for him, and for his wife; not only has he hd to cope with the loss of AG, & the trauma of her discovery -- but now he also has to face VERY public scrutiny for the simple fact of the circumstances of her finding.

I just wish LE would give us something genuinely meaningful to which we could apply our collective genius SIGH!

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

A few things here:

1. I also don't blame PK for not posting here anymore. He has a lot on his plate - newly married, studies, work, the loss of AG, possibly still dealing with LE.

2. I'm wondering why LE is so silent about this crime and also the crimes against SL and SV.

3. Are LE still working on these three cases? I surely hope so.

4. Still no arrests in any of the three cases - so, I'm still convinced they are linked somehow.

:moo:

 

[loveisthemovement]

Been following this case as it's close to home....and I must bring this up. The way PK would address others: "I missed you guys!" or "love you lots" was just plain weird. Like he was trying to be a part of the group here, but trying too hard. It always struck me as odd.