CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough, Ont, 19 June 1990 #2

[dotr]

Maybe DNA testing has advanced since 2008 and something could be found now?
rbbm.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2008/04/24/bains_body_wouldnt_id_killer.html

" By: Peter Small Betsy Powell staff reporters, Published on Thu Apr 24 2008

If Elizabeth Bain's skeletal remains were found today, almost 18 years after her murder, it's unlikely they'd point a definitive forensic finger at her killer, experts say.

"The only DNA available in skeletal remains is that of the person. Everything else is gone," said Jonathan Newman, a scientist at the Centre for Forensic Science.

On Tuesday, the man accused of killing Bain, her boyfriend Robert Baltovich, 42, was found not guilty in his second trial for her June 1990 slaying after the prosecution said there was no reasonable prospect of conviction.

James Lockyer, Baltovich's lawyer, told court that Newman had conducted DNA testing on objects found in Bain's car, such as a can of Sprite, cigarettes in the glove compartment and a piece of paper near a pool of her blood, but "regrettably" it failed to turn up anything "meaningful" that would identify the perpetrator. Lockyer agrees it's unlikely skeletal remains alone could point to the killer, but there could be other clues near the body that might help, such as a suspected murder weapon.

A knife might point to a killer such as Paul Bernardo – the defence's main suspect. He used a knife in his Scarborough serial rapes, but strangled his murder victims, Lockyer said.

Newman said a lot would depend on the circumstances in which the remains were found. For instance, if there was clothing or hair, it's possible DNA testing could reveal "probative evidence," he said."

snip>

"...She concluded that if Bain's body had lain in the park for three days and been transported by car, it is "highly probable" that hundreds of maggots from the body would have fallen into her vehicle in 1990. None were found."

 

[eyesonly]

About 3 days after Rb was arrested, one of the arresting detectives BR, had a meeting with the forensics person and was informed that their theory of what happened was not plausible, yet LE and the crown still continued with their theory and this meeting and the results about this meeting were kept under wraps when Rb was being tried and convicted.
They knew it wasn't forensically plausible yet they still went ahead with it. That's sick imo

 

[Woodland]

Thank-you dotr and eyesonly for the forensic reminders - they played a role in my thinking. Also, there is a statement in thread #1, that the amount of blood in the rear of EB's car was less than what one person would donate in a single sitting.

 

[Woodland]

My speculation only on what happened to EB.

Tension was always brewing in the B residence (per NCTM) with EB treated as property by her father and older brother. EB lashed out with a letter to MB's gf to break off her relationship with MB. Imo things boiled over.

We know from RB that he spoke to EB on the phone about 11:00 am the morning of 19 June - both were at their respective homes. No plans to speak or see each other again that day or night.

At some point MB came home from his landscaping job - lunch time or close to dinner - fuming. Only his mom and EB were home imo. He and EB went at it - he lashed out and EB was dead. Doubt it was a messy incident - lean towards him breaking her neck - quick.

EB remained hidden at the home for a few hours in order to put a plan of disposal into place. Mr B was contacted in Florida. He had a flight for 20 June am or changed an original booking to 20 June return - no one seems to know. Contact was maintained until well into the night as per RB and one of the Eric's EB was friendly with. I think the plan they came up with is brilliant in its simplicity.

MB moved EB's car to the lot where it was later seen - imo the only plan was for it to be seen (by anyone) or it would be vandalized and could be reported to LE as being away from the house - signs had been posted warning that vandalism and worse was happening in that area. He walked back or mom picked him up - doesn't matter. At this point mom either speaks up or forever remains silent. MB got the stone screenings and patio stones. Whatever time it was - that was when the parking space job began. Implicates sister CB to say what she is told to say from then on. A small amount of blood was possibly collected from EB - or it came from CB later - the blood was only determined to have come from a female offspring of Mr and Mrs B - leaving 2 possibilities on the planet.

EB went into the ground beneath the new parking pad. MB retrieved EB's car at or before 9:00 pm - RB waited at EB's class at 9:00 pm for her to exit - he had last seen the car 30 or more minutes before. When EB did not exit the class, RB returned to the lot where he had seen the car and it was gone. He immediately went to the B home and claims to have seen MB's vehicle there as well as the patio stones - but not EB or her car. This gave MB an opportunity to make an appearance at gf's house around 8:30 ish as per gf's recollection later. A parking ticket is reported to have been found in the rear of EB's car with the address of the gf on it - not sure how accurate that is though. He only stayed until 10:00 pm or so as per gf.

Can't believe MB moved EB anywhere in her car after that - the issue with taking her to Port Perry at that point if his boat was already moored there is, getting her from the car to the boat unseen. Risky. Alternatively, his boat was at the house and he put her in it and took her to Port Perry - personally don't lean that way - also risky for getting stopped along the way or still being seen by another boater or another boater hearing a splash and calling attention to himself.

EB's car was parked at the autobody shop - walking distance to B residence. Blood was either staged then or someone went back later to do it.

At this point I don't think the B family had any intention of framing RB. LE lead the way on this after her car was found and they followed suit - in their minds absolving themselves of any blame for whatever might happen. Imo this has to be atoned for big time as well as the killing and cover up for killing EB.

This is strictly the framework of my assessment of the case.

 

[JohnPaul]

Woodland,

i agree that your speculation is definitely possible, i only have one problem with this, and that is my friend PB, you make no mention of him in all this,

i would find it very hard to believe that the family could hide EVERYTHING from him,

i would also find it very hard to believe that he would agree to keep quiet about this, IF he knew, he was adopted and "the outsider" of the family, if he DID KNOW i am sure i would have noticed a definite change in him at that time, and there was not,

he was not the type of person to keep to himself, he liked to talk.....A LOT, i am fairly confident i would have picked up something in our many conversations, he would slip up somewhere, we talked for hours every day,

 

[Woodland]

I can swing either way regarding PB. I don't think he was home during this incident and likely did not know much, if anything for a long time.

Problem is though, he miraculously found EB's car. Was it miraculous? Was he sent to look in that area so he might find it? No idea.

 

[Woodland]

From JohnPaul's post #1071, page 72, thread #1 -

also, the son (adopted by the bains) who i was friends with PB did 90% of the choirs around the house and yard, mr B was very strict with making sure he did his choirs, i am sure if mrs B was doing a project like this, he would have been helping out, and to my knowledge and memory he was not,

If PB was responsible for 90% of the chores around the house, why was he not asked to help Mrs B with the patio stone/parking pad job? RB claims Mrs B was going about this job on her own that night about 9:15 pm or so - Mrs B claims she did this on her own throughout the day and that daughter CB was there in the morning when she started but never mentioned CB helped her in any way.

PB did not initially know imo. What happened later with him is a guess outside the family core.

 

[JohnPaul]

Problem is though, he miraculously found EB's car. Was it miraculous? Was he sent to look in that area so he might find it? No idea.

that's a good point,

however it was found on a quite commonly traveled street,

 

[JohnPaul]

From JohnPaul's post #1071, page 72, thread #1 -

also, the son (adopted by the bains) who i was friends with PB did 90% of the choirs around the house and yard, mr B was very strict with making sure he did his choirs, i am sure if mrs B was doing a project like this, he would have been helping out, and to my knowledge and memory he was not,

If PB was responsible for 90% of the chores around the house, why was he not asked to help Mrs B with the patio stone/parking pad job? RB claims Mrs B was going about this job on her own that night about 9:15 pm or so - Mrs B claims she did this on her own throughout the day and that daughter CB was there in the morning when she started but never mentioned CB helped her in any way.

PB did not initially know imo. What happened later with him is a guess outside the family core.

the more i am reading, the more i am starting to believe your theory,

this patio stone thing is somewhat coming back to me now,

i now remember mrs b moving the stones, but i can't remember where she was moving them to or from,

the reason i remember is because i specifically remember saying to PB "she shouldn't be lifting those by herself" because they are very heavy,

the patio stone part of the driveway was already there long before the disappearance, so im not sure what she was doing with the stones,

my other problem with this is the location in front of the house and in plain view from the street, they had a huge secluded back yard with privacy, wouldn't that make more sense?

 

[Woodland]

Hiding in plain sight is historically tried and true. We're dealing with an engineer and a registered nurse - much knowledge combined imo.

To bury someone in your yard where grass or a garden exists is well, pretty dumb imo. An obvious sign of a freshly dug grave when you report someone missing. I consider the patio stone area brilliant - especially when I read your post (more than one now) that such an area already existed - perfect imo. It would not look out of place.

If you saw Mrs B dealing with patio stones, you had to be there late in evening on 19 June and or the 20th and 21st.

So, did anyone pitch and move them for her? If not, why not? She was determined to do it herself until the evening of Thursday the 21st? From all that I have read, the evening of the 21st is the only time she requested or had any assistance with this job.

Btw - you come across as a sweetheart that would very much like the truth - jmo.

 

[JohnPaul]

Hiding in plain sight is historically tried and true. We're dealing with an engineer and a registered nurse - much knowledge combined imo.

To bury someone in your yard where grass or a garden exists is well, pretty dumb imo. An obvious sign of a freshly dug grave when you report someone missing. I consider the patio stone area brilliant - especially when I read your post (more than one now) that such an area already existed - perfect imo. It would not look out of place.

If you saw Mrs B dealing with patio stones, you had to be there late in evening on 19 June and or the 20th and 21st.

So, did anyone pitch and move them for her? If not, why not? She was determined to do it herself until the evening of Thursday the 21st? From all that I have read, the evening of the 21st is the only time she requested or had any assistance with this job.

Btw - you come across as a sweetheart that would very much like the truth - jmo.

i can not recall specific dates i was there, but i was at the house almost every day, but sometimes for only a few minutes, i would drive over there to pick up PB, or leave my vehicle there and PB and i would go out somewhere, (most of the time in EBs car, she loaned it to PB often), but every time i went to the house i would go inside even if only for a few minutes and say hi to whoever was there at the time,

but there were also times where we would spend time at the house hanging out talking on the porch, (PB and i) or sitting around the fire pit at night in the back yard with other family members and friends,

the bains had a big fire pit in their back yard, we used to sit out there at night around the fire, i recall one time after the disappearance we were all around the fire pit and sister C started crying like crazy and she said something like "some guys have got my sister, and i don't know where she is" or something to that effect, maybe not those specific words,

the more i am reading, the more that is popping back into my head, like the boat, although it might have no relevance to the case, once somebody asked about a boat, i remembered MB bought a boat a few weeks or a month prior to the disappearance,

i remember mrs b moving patio stones, and thinking why is she doing that alone when they are so heavy, and i think i said the same thing to PB at the time, but i do not recall her asking for help or anybody else helping, maybe i was not there at that time,

and yes, i do want to know the truth, which is why i am here, i did not know much about EBs personal life, but we did say hi and spoke frequently when i was there, she was so nice and friendly and i feel horrible for her and what she probably went through on that day (speculation of course),

it still haunts me to think i was in that car so many times with PB, and EB herself drove me home sometimes and many other places in that car,

 

[eyesonly]

Woodland:
If MB put Ebs car down in the valley lot before 6:45pm and retrieved it at or just before 9pm, why would he leave both drivers and passenger side windows down (as per Rb) if the intent was to only be seen and not vandalized.
Also, there is a very credible witness who saw Eb arguing with a male in her car at approx 8:15pmish on the driveway property of the 3r auto body place, on the 19th, which is about 30-60 ft from where her car was found on the 22nd. Literally a stones throw away.

 

[eyesonly]

Johnpaul:
Do you ever recall seeing scratch-like marks on the inside ceiling of Ebs car above the passengers seat, before her disappearance.
So if you sat in the passengers seat, and looked up to the car ceiling.

 

[Woodland]

Woodland:
If MB put Ebs car down in the valley lot before 6:45pm and retrieved it at or just before 9pm, why would he leave both drivers and passenger side windows down (as per Rb) if the intent was to only be seen and not vandalized.
Also, there is a very credible witness who saw Eb arguing with a male in her car at approx 8:15pmish on the driveway property of the 3r auto body place, on the 19th, which is about 30-60 ft from where her car was found on the 22nd. Literally a stones throw away.

I think the hope was it would possibly be vandalized - signs had been put up to warn of this and other dangers there.

Who parks their vehicle in an area known for vandalism, unlocked and windows down?

 

[Woodland]

Woodland:
If MB put Ebs car down in the valley lot before 6:45pm and retrieved it at or just before 9pm, why would he leave both drivers and passenger side windows down (as per Rb) if the intent was to only be seen and not vandalized.
Also, there is a very credible witness who saw Eb arguing with a male in her car at approx 8:15pmish on the driveway property of the 3r auto body place, on the 19th, which is about 30-60 ft from where her car was found on the 22nd. Literally a stones throw away.

BBM

Can you define credible in this instance? Or is that an opinion?

 

[eyesonly]

I think the hope was it would possibly be vandalized - signs had been put up to warn of this and other dangers there.

Who parks their vehicle in an area known for vandalism, unlocked and windows down?

Sorry, I must have misread your speculative theory about Mb putting the car down there, thought his only intention was for it to be seen.
If there was also an intention for it to be vandalized, then why would he go back and move it and not just leave it there for the night, surely someone would have vandalized it overnight with the windows down.
And I don't recall there being beware of being vandalized signs around the valley lot area. Can you give your source for this please, possible I have just forgotten it.
Thanks

 

[Woodland]

The best I can do for the vandal warning signs is post #764, page 51, thread #1 where I quote that from the book NCTM.

Or, it was driven there by someone else, with access to her keys, as part of a staging attempt - to be seen by someone/anyone. Her wallet was in her room, the car window(s) were rolled down and the car was unlocked - in an area that had signs posted to beware of potential crime (from NCTM). This has me leaning towards EB did not drive and park her car in the valley lot late afternoon of 19 June 1990.

 

[Woodland]

Moving the car before 9:00 pm that night could have been the plan that was made earlier on or maybe it changed. Imo, everything was done on the fly but with careful discussion/consultation between at least 3 family members.

 

[eyesonly]

If they were that smart, why wouldn't they just make it look like a suicide, or why plant blood in the car, wouldn't it be much more intelligent to just put the car where it was found and let it be as her missing, maybe ran away, planting the blood without a body found makes no sense to me. Much better to have her just look disappeared than adding blood where it isn't necessary.
And how would they get CB's blood, take a pint of it on the 19th or 20th or did Mrs B keep a stash of her families blood on hand.
And if they planted blood in the car, are you saying they did it with that much expertise as to fool the detectives and the forensics experts with how they smeared the blood, that to them with all their expertise couldn't tell the difference between a real body being dragged in vs planted blood and planted smears.
Sorry, just playing devil's advocate here. No disrespect intended Woodland

 

[Woodland]

Mrs B kept a stash of family blood on hand is playing devils advocate?