Casey & Family Psychological Profile #7

[OneLostGrl]

You are absolutely right Stupid is not insane and Stupid is not necessarily the murderer either.
And if Casey did this I will voice my opinion after hearing what the trial will show us.

Going back to the reason he selected to withdraw from this case, is because in his opinion he did not see what JB is doing as the right direction to go.
Oh and about Scott Peterson: Hmmm Male with preg wife.
IMHO it is easier to believe that scenario.
Then a 22 year Old with baby, who has parents create a Heaven for a child to grow in.. I come flat on Motive. Of course to me that too falls under insane. A Mother harming her child...(while it has happened t is not natural)

Nope not natural at all. but still a choice.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I just don't get why JB can't see the writing on the wall...there is so much evidence against Casey, he is insane to not either talk plea deals w/ the state or invest in some sort of mitigating theory to help his client out. The "I didn't do it" defense is weak and he is doing his client no favors by sticking to that line of thought. I can't figure out if it is more JB or more Casey's decision not to budge, maybe a combination of the two ? I keep thinking JB's ego is the strongest force behind the "didn't do it" defense.

I worry about the same thing. I don't like the guy, at all... haven't since "day one". But if Casey won't budge she won't budge. He can't force her even if he knows the truth!

 

[nobull]

You are absolutely right Stupid is not insane and Stupid is not necessarily the murderer either.
And if Casey did this I will voice my opinion after hearing what the trial will show us.

Going back to the reason he selected to withdraw from this case, is because in his opinion he did not see what JB is doing as the right direction to go.
Oh and about Scott Peterson: Hmmm Male with preg wife.
IMHO it is easier to believe that scenario.
Then a 22 year Old with baby, who has parents create a Heaven for a child to grow in.. I come flat on Motive. Of course to me that too falls under insane. A Mother harming her child...(while it has happened t is not natural)

Just because it is not common or "natural" doesn't mean that the act is one of an insane individual. Using that definition, the CEO of Enron must also have been insane for bilking his corporation of millions of dollars because I can't imagine someone honestly believing that they could 'get away' with a crime of that magnitude.

If it is proven a crime of planning (duct tape, Zanny the Nanny) and commission (31 days), insanity as a defense is a moot point. Insanity is not planned or contrived, it is a condition independent of the wishes of the individual. IMO, the crime against Caylee does not fit that description, no matter how much we wish that mothers would not act to kill their own children.

 

[OneLostGrl]

AND WHY aren't the Anthony's trying to step in?
I would hope they want to feel confident in her Lawyer.
HOW can they?

umm She's an adult!

 

[sharpar]

I'm not being confrontational but I would love to see the link of the sugested theories TL came up with initially as I'm very intrigued by the psychiatric aspects of this case and how it seems to be comming up on occasion when dicussing the legal aspect of KC's plea or better yet non plea which is crazy in itself.

I know you arent - I read it here when he was an active part of the
defense team . I have no idea how to locate it now .

 

[snow_walker]

I suppose a legal insanity defense might include something like a criminal act committed while sleep walking, or in a strange state of some sort. Not exactly insanity, but an act that was committed while one was not in control of oneself. I think we have all done odd things while in a sort of stupor.. I once placed the TP in the fridge and ketchup in the bathroom .. try explaining THAT to the family! I wasn't insane, just so tired my mind quit working... of course that wasn't a crime, but I am saying it is the same sort of thing..doing something truly dim, not due to stupidity, nor due to insanity, but due to a temporary mental problem. PERHAPS something like that is what this lawyer was refferring to.

 

[carrie]

. . . Many women have been know to have seizures as well after the birth of a child due to hormone imbalance. Defense could state she purchased these drugs illegally to avoid the family knowing. Defense showing that since a probable seizure K C felt alittle off balanced, feeling the need to self medicate. The pathology of her stress level being brought on by maternal mother and a mentally absent father. . . .

(respectfully snipped)(BBM)

Off Topic a bit, but I'm curious as to the meaning of the phrase/term you use above "maternal mother." What does that mean in psychology? TIA

 

[OneLostGrl]

I suppose a legal insanity defense might include something like a criminal act committed while sleep walking, or in a strange state of some sort. Not exactly insanity, but an act that was committed while one was not in control of oneself. I think we have all done odd things while in a sort of stupor.. I once placed the TP in the fridge and ketchup in the bathroom .. try explaining THAT to the family! I wasn't insane, just so tired my mind quit working... of course that wasn't a crime, but I am saying it is the same sort of thing..doing something truly dim, not due to stupidity, nor due to insanity, but due to a temporary mental problem. PERHAPS something like that is what this lawyer was refferring to.

ETA- Legal insanity is the only kind of insanity there is. "Insanity" is a legal, not a medical term. While i don't know about how florida works it, I do know some states have other options to choose from besides NGBRI defenses such as a "guilty but mentally ill" or "gulty but insane" or "diminished capacity"..

 

[ThoughtElf]

She is, but she is not a FL certified attorney and is there on a legal work visa (someone with fancy Latin skillz can tell you what it is). She also is not there in the guise of DP advice, she is there to provide forensic expertise.....and apparently to school the judge when she deems it necessary (such as in the area of bench notes). Judge Strickland surely appreciated her help there.

Pro Hac Vice

 

[ThoughtElf]

Nope not natural at all. but still a choice.

Sing it out! I'll do harmony!

:blowkiss:

 

[precious]

Perhaps you should get involved in trying to help change some laws if this is that big an issue for you.

Because as it stands and rightfully so (IMO and I am mentally ill and have been "Insane") being stupid is not even close to being insane. Living a life having never been called out on or forced to face the consequenses of ones illegal or immoral acts is not insanity. Being selfish and having an obvious ability to shut ones feelings off after being involved in illegal or immoral acts is not insanity. Insanity is about not knowing what one is doing- having your brain work against you, not having a choice, being unable to reason or make sense of the world around you

Your list above? Are not the acts of an "insane" person, they are the acts of the oh SO common stupid criminal. MANY criminals are this stupid and make these kinds of choices. They too get themselves caught.. and most times convicted Often-times all by themselves! The evidence used to convict is left by none other than the stupid criminals themselves- their own LIES, mistakes, lack of planning and activities after the crime is what does them in. Why do you think the prison systems are so overcrowded? Have you never watched "Cops"?

Do you think Scott Peterson was "insane" when he killed and then lied about and covered up his wife and unborn childs murder? He was "partying" after his crime too- his lawyer was quite the clown, was even on TV talking major about him before he took him on as a client! He sat in court chatting and laughing in front of the jury. Ha, He's STILL lying and lying and lying and it's HOW many years later?! It's what criminals DO- they are conmen- some are darn good at it, some get better with practice, but some others (quite a bit of them), can't con anyone but their own enabling parents and end up spending their entire lives in and out of prison.

If Casey did this, if she murdered her child, she is going down (probably with evidence or information she herself left behind) and rightfully so!

Insanity is not so much hard to prove as it is rare. Only about 1% of the ones who do attempt to use it, succeed. It isn't a joke or something to be used lightly on someone like Casey Anthony who does not even have a history of mental health issues.

Bravo.....well said..:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[Bobbisangel]

YOU ARE CORRECT. That is why insanity is a hard case to prove. And most attorneys do not go in that direction unless they must.
I think maybe JB is really working for someone else and that is why Casey has no option but to hold on to him.
IT IS INSANE for anyone in her position to insist to keep this BOZO.
But again you are right and if you know right from wrong you can Howell at the moon but you cant plead insane.

1/2 of the chit she did is insane:
Who does not make a 911 call for 31 days?
Who goes to party when a kid is missing?
Who goes to get their nails and tattoos done?
Who lies, lies, lies?
Who insists on a clown for a lawyer?

I still believe that Baez and Casey are involved but just not as involved as they were when she spent every day at his office....if you catch my drift :crazy: I believe that Casey probably believes that Baez is doing everything possible so that she will walk out of the courthouse door after the trial. She probably believes everything that he tells her. When two people are emotionally involved there are times one person can't see the forest for the trees...and I think that is Casey. He is her Mexican Knight in shining armor who rode in on his big black horse to save the day. She knows only what he tells her. She doesn't even see anyone else. I doubt she even knows half of the things that are said in meetings between the attorneys for her defense.

I agree that she would never say that she was insane or even mentally ill.
The insanity plea would never have worked anyway because Casey has no documented history of mental problems. I don't think she has ever had a mental health eval either.

I wonder if that attorney wanted Casey to plead guilty due to mental illness if the Pros would give her LWOP instead of the death penalty? I honestly don't believe a jury will give her the DP. I think they will look at her age and other things and have an ounce of compassion for her for some reason and give her LWOP. I could be way off base though. I really don't care what they do to her as long as she is locked away. I don't look for her to ever plead guilty or take a plea if offered which I doubt it will be.

 

[snow_walker]

I quite realize that 'insanity' is a legal definition, not a medical one. I have been all through that subject, having gone through having my father declared insane, and confined in a mental institution.. horrible time in my life!

I still feel that there is a broader case to be made for some sort of diminshed responsibility .. there is certainly something amiss with KC, not 'insanity' as the word is properly used, but 'insane' as the word is used in ordinary vernacular speech. She is so obviously not legally insane that I doubt an expierienced lawyer like this one would be refferring to that as any sort of defense.. so I am back with some sort of mitigating circumstance caused by a hormone imbalance or some such.

I just cannot come up with anything pertaining to KC that is 'legal enough' to pass muster in a court of law though. Of course she is some sort of narcissist or physocopath, but that is not a legal defense.

 

[kageykaren]

(respectfully snipped)(BBM)

Off Topic a bit, but I'm curious as to the meaning of the phrase/term you use above "maternal mother." What does that mean in psychology? TIA

Morning Carrie, Maternal stands for "birth mother"

 

[countzero]

AND WHY aren't the Anthony's trying to step in?
I would hope they want to feel confident in her Lawyer.
HOW can they?

JB doesn't want or need the A's involved. The A's certainly don't want to be involved with JB and company because their gravy train pulling the money car on wheels would disappear. In other words, they need KC convicted to keep the money rolling in. Think about it. JB becomes famous - (ok stretch here) for a few years. If KC should by chance get a lighter sentence then JB can tell TL how wrong he was. The A's gravy train derails while JB rides his. When KC is convicted, JB's train derails and the A's start collecting $$ from go (again), blaming JB and company and re-attempting to position themselves as the victims of JB's blunders. While misunderstood KC sits in confinement wondering why no one will listen much less believe her.

TL was smart to follow MN and jump off this train wreck.

And the greatest crime of all this: Caylee is forgotten and used for personal financial gains.

 

[concentric]

I quite realize that 'insanity' is a legal definition, not a medical one. I have been all through that subject, having gone through having my father declared insane, and confined in a mental institution.. horrible time in my life!

I still feel that there is a broader case to be made for some sort of diminshed responsibility .. there is certainly something amiss with KC, not 'insanity' as the word is properly used, but 'insane' as the word is used in ordinary vernacular speech. She is so obviously not legally insane that I doubt an expierienced lawyer like this one would be refferring to that as any sort of defense.. so I am back with some sort of mitigating circumstance caused by a hormone imbalance or some such.

I just cannot come up with anything pertaining to KC that is 'legal enough' to pass muster in a court of law though. Of course she is some sort of narcissist or physocopath, but that is not a legal defense.

-----------------------

There must be 100 pages of threads on here where we all discussed what psychological/psychiatric disorder could be used to defend her--not an insanity defense but diminished responsibility/capacity.

Here's one that I mentioned: Intermittant Explosive Disorder

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/intermittent-explosive-disorder/DS00730/DSECTION=risk-factors

People with traits that are common to personality disorders — such as dramatic, antisocial, paranoid or narcissistic behavior patterns — may be especially prone to intermittent explosive disorder. As children, they may have exhibited severe temper tantrums and other behavioral problems, such as stealing and fire setting.

 

[SoSueMe]

I did not see or hear him state the actual plea or defense he would consider. The impression I took away from it was that he wanted to use her mental health as a means to eliminate or mitigate the DP regardless of her overall guilt or innocense. Which is and would have been a superb defense strategy. The state will not even bother trying to get death for someone that can be proven mentally ill.

I agree, this would have been the perfect defense in this case. He could argue mental health issues (not insanity) and perhaps KC would have seen the light of day again in about 15 years. He had to see the amount of evidence and the most likely outcome for KC (guilty) and this sort of strategy just may have worked in her best interest.

 

[gardenhart]

I did not see or hear him state the actual plea or defense he would consider. The impression I took away from it was that he wanted to use her mental health as a means to eliminate or mitigate the DP regardless of her overall guilt or innocense. Which is and would have been a superb defense strategy. The state will not even bother trying to get death for someone that can be proven mentally ill.

Bolded by me. I completely disagree with the bolded statement above. I've covered at least a couple of capital murder trials where the defendant was obviously mentally ill and it sure didn't stop the state from pursuing and getting the death penalty. Everyone I interviewed on the juries afterwards said they believed the defense had proven to them the defendants were mentally ill but they didn't prove they were legally insane.

Mentally ill does not mean legally insane. If it were, many of our prisons would be empty because I'd say the majority of those who commit crimes are mentally ill to one degree or another. I've certainly seen a lot of judges make mental health treatment a condition of any present or future probation for those who had the possibility of parole.

Mental illness might be used to try to mitigate, but it can go the opposite way with juries too, convincing them that the defendant poses a danger to society.

 

[Hell's Belle]

"The State Attorney's Office would not confirm whether it had received the report, which is not a public record. Such reports are part of the process prosecutors go through to decide whether they will seek a death sentence or life in prison for a person charged with a capital crime."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-casey0608nov06,0,7406889.story

I am absolutely positive that at one point this document was posted on the web, and that I read it. My guess was that it was on the OS website, and it was pulled soon after posting. I am less sure of where I read it than I am that I read it. Unfortunately, I did not save a copy to my hard drive, and I'm sure I cleared out my cache long ago.

 

[kageykaren]

-----------------------

There must be 100 pages of threads on here where we all discussed what psychological/psychiatric disorder could be used to defend her--not an insanity defense but diminished responsibility/capacity.

Here's one that I mentioned: Intermittant Explosive Disorder

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/intermittent-explosive-disorder/DS00730/DSECTION=risk-factors

People with traits that are common to personality disorders — such as dramatic, antisocial, paranoid or narcissistic behavior patterns — may be especially prone to intermittent explosive disorder. As children, they may have exhibited severe temper tantrums and other behavioral problems, such as stealing and fire setting.

This is also why I'v been thinking, "Temporary Mental Derangement due to explosive disorder could have been a viable defense if JB would have considered it but since we know JB doesn't want to entertain the thought of a mental health issue deffense is going to have to do some fancy footwork unless the defense intends to blame it on CA's imaginary perp who lives in her smug head currently.