CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #2

[Elisabeth2413]

A crime is a crime, you investigate all crimes with the basic techniques. They didn't at all. IE footprint, investigator should have come out and they could have assigned a case number that night and taken a cast. They were lazy, and couldn't be bothered MOO

I agree with you. I think it says something , the fact that the deaths are ruled suicides more quickly. Makes you wonder what else has gone on there that's been over looked.

 

[mysterygirl]

I've sad long before it doesn't matter if Morgan took the pills or someone administered to her. The fact remains she died due to undue stress caused by one or more people stalking her. It becomes homicide or 2nd degree. Morgan wouldn't have even thought of taking pills to get sleep or escape (which I still do not believe she did) if it were not for her being stalked. The mere fact that Mrs. I was threatened that the autopsy report will be changed to suicide if she didn't shut up speaks volumes along with tonight's new post of Officer's telling her one thing then after Morgan's death they deny it.

Its like a consorted effort to keep the fact that there is a perp on the loose, stalking people, breaking in, or what have you. It won't be the first time this has been done!

I made this same point!

That stalking CAUSED HER DEATH.

And at that level............it will be done again.

 

[nursebeeme]

ETA: I LOVE your avatar! So cute!

Hmm. Is it possible that the photo was of the neighbor leaving? Maybe he came back for a moment but decided to turn around when they left? Or maybe he was there the whole time? Maybe he never left and either hung around near the cars to see what happened or was actually standing around with the officers and the family until the officers left.



I don't know. I value Dr. Dobersen's opinion and I think his opinion regarding this case is huge. However, I value Dr. Kurtzman's as well and IMO, his makes more sense.

Flexeril may indeed be occasionally used as a date rape drug but it is more often used as a sleep aid.

And we still have the problem of how such drugs were administered to an unwilling victim with no signs of forced entry or assault.

I suppose how you view the medical reports and which one is of more value is an opinion. Myself not knowing either of the physicians in the case, I would like to read both of them side by side including the EMT report (as a nurse that is

As for the flexeril: the mother has said in the comments that no one in the house took it, she had never even heard of it before the report, and that there were also other compounds that were found that were not reportable due to the limited amount of gastric fluid sample.

I find it clinically interesting that there were no pill fragments in the stomach yet she took a lethal dose of elavil. I further find it clinically interesting that they specifically tested for flexeril on the redo in June before the MOD came back as suicide. I have no reason to doubt the mother's statement that flexeril was not in her home so I have to say well.. where did it come from. I would think the ME would have started there vs going down the other path.

Of course this is all just my opinion as a nurse. I too am skeptical of the second report... why? Because I haven't seen the first one. I would really like to see that first one.. And I further agree with the pill count. I would also want to look at the pill bottle for the fill date as well. (age of the rx)

:moo:


medically speaking I am still a fence sitter until I can see all the reports.

As for the stalker, I 100% believe that much.:moo:

 

[Lera213]

I generally pro LE but not in this case at all! They are a bunch of lazy or corrupt or both. Elected officials worry about the crime rate for their next election. Coroner is an elected official, he likes quick and easy cases. They don't want to answer the phone and have to come out on a call (speaking of investigator's not patrol cops) It anger's me because there is one or more out there still. If I was living there I would MOVE!

 

[Leilei]

This is such an intriguing and creepy case. I can't shake the feeling that, even though someone was probably stalking her or her family, the anxiety, fear, and possibly a mood disorder caused her to "escape" by taking her own life. I genuinely feel for her family, and I realize that they had her best interests at heart, but if I were in Morgan's shoes, the increasing efforts at protection, the high number of LE visits, the constant worried texts from her family, would have sent me into panic mode. Being overly panicked can lead to depression (my own experience), and a huge feeling of hopelessness. It just seemed to escalate so suddenly, and the parents were panicking right along with her.

I am more on the fence than I ever have been with regards to a case. Her mother's grief is heart-wrenching, but I'm struggling with the initial paranoia, which only grew and grew over the weeks that we've read about. No matter what, I hope that Morgan and her family can find some peace.

IMO, as always.

 

[MayraMM]

As far as a pill count, it would have been irrelevant. M was RX'd the pills 2 years before, therefore any pill count should have come up as 0 pills left in the bottle. Obviously, she never took that last bottle as prescribed (unless it was prn), but even then it was outdated. UNLESS THE BOTTLE WAS ON THE NIGHTSTAND, ON THE BED, IN HER HAND, there would have been no reason to suspect an overdose, and even if they had suspected, there would have been no way to get an accurate pill count.

The only way they would have been able to tell if any pills were missing was if by some strange reason someone decided to count the pills the night before and knew how many should be there. And that alone would have been a strange thing to do.

Mom states they didn't think there was anything suspicious about her death until later. THAT, I find odd. How do you go 4 months in terror, feeling stalked, feeling watched and persecuted, and not immediately think foul play at a young woman's death? Was there a medical reason we haven't learned of that they family first suspected?

 

[M2GnR]

Here is proof (from the blog) that M was cremated.

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=170

 

[MayraMM]

I generally pro LE but not in this case at all! They are a bunch of lazy or corrupt or both. Elected officials worry about the crime rate for their next election. Coroner is an elected official, he likes quick and easy cases. They don't want to answer the phone and have to come out on a call (speaking of investigator's not patrol cops) It anger's me because there is one or more out there still. If I was living there I would MOVE!

Let's all keep in mind we're getting one person's view on what happened. We don't really know what LE did or didn't do. I think as more time goes on, we may learn more. So for the time being, I think we should take a wait and see approach. Public records would be nice. Call sheets, news accounts, neighbor reports. . . something, anything would be nice.

There's nothing on the call sheet available to corroborate the accounts, so there are many missing pieces. Mom did give an incident report number that was given to her initially. Maybe that will help find some of those missing pieces.

 

[nursebeeme]

As far as a pill count, it would have been irrelevant. M was RX'd the pills 2 years before, therefore any pill count should have come up as 0 pills left in the bottle. Obviously, she never took that last bottle as prescribed (unless it was prn), but even then it was outdated. UNLESS THE BOTTLE WAS ON THE NIGHTSTAND, ON THE BED, IN HER HAND, there would have been no reason to suspect an overdose, and even if they had suspected, there would have been no way to get an accurate pill count.

The only way they would have been able to tell if any pills were missing was if by some strange reason someone decided to count the pills the night before and knew how many should be there. And that alone would have been a strange thing to do.

Mom states they didn't think there was anything suspicious about her death until later. THAT, I find odd. How do you go 4 months in terror, feeling stalked, feeling watched and persecuted, and not immediately think foul play at a young woman's death? Was there a medical reason we haven't learned of that they family first suspected?

I agree. I still am interested in seeing the emt report. (just the nurse in me... eta)

 

[concernedmother]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/sabrina-howard-son-suicide-indiana_n_1875557.html
An Indiana woman whose 16-year-old son committed suicide in July is accused of driving him to take his own life because he lived in constant fear her drug addiction would lead her to a fatal overdose, court documents state.
Indiana has had a causing suicide law on the books since 1976, but it has been used rarely, if at all.As written, the law applies to "a person who intentionally causes another human being, by force, duress, or deception, to commit suicide." Watson said that means prosecutors would have to prove Howard intentionally caused her son's death.
I wonder if CO has a law like this and if they could prove who the stalker was they may be able to use that law even if they cant prove murder and her death resulted from OD intentionally or unintentionally because of the duress she was under?

 

[Cazzie]

Here is proof (from the blog) that M was cremated.

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=170

What a beautiful blog post...

 

[marycarney]

Let's all keep in mind we're getting one person's view on what happened. We don't really know what LE did or didn't do. I think as more time goes on, we may learn more. So for the time being, I think we should take a wait and see approach. Public records would be nice. Call sheets, news accounts, neighbor reports. . . something, anything would be nice.

There's nothing on the call sheet available to corroborate the accounts, so there are many missing pieces. Mom did give an incident report number that was given to her initially. Maybe that will help find some of those missing pieces.

THANK YOU!!! For all of you accusing sworn law enforcement officers of negligence and corruption: PLEASE consider that these are VERY serious charges to make without knowing BOTH SIDES.

We are not allowed to trash innocent parties - and until PROVEN by independent means - I refuse to accuse the agencies that made dozen of visits to the home to investigate their claims, and - by the mother's own account' spent many, many hours in these investigations.

<modsnip>

 

[concernedmother]

THANK YOU!!! For all of you accusing sworn law enforcement officers of negligence and corruption: PLEASE consider that these are VERY serious charges to make without knowing BOTH SIDES.

We are not allowed to trash innocent parties - and until PROVEN by independent means - I refuse to accuse the agencies that made dozen of visits to the home to investigate their claims, and - by the mother's own account' spent many, many hours in these investigations.

Please, give it a rest.

They came close to 50 times and couldnt see anyone. They did a stakeout down the street and never saw anything. When neighbors found out they watched and didnt see anything either. Not sure what more they could do. They just couldnt catch this guy. He outsmarted everyone.

 

[gitana1]

I suppose how you view the medical reports and which one is of more value is an opinion. Myself not knowing either of the physicians in the case, I would like to read both of them side by side including the EMT report (as a nurse that is

As for the flexeril: the mother has said in the comments that no one in the house took it, she had never even heard of it before the report, and that there were also other compounds that were found that were not reportable due to the limited amount of gastric fluid sample.

I find it clinically interesting that there were no pill fragments in the stomach yet she took a lethal dose of elavil. I further find it clinically interesting that they specifically tested for flexeril on the redo in June before the MOD came back as suicide. I have no reason to doubt the mother's statement that flexeril was not in her home so I have to say well.. where did it come from. I would think the ME would have started there vs going down the other path.

Of course this is all just my opinion as a nurse. I too am skeptical of the second report... why? Because I haven't seen the first one. I would really like to see that first one.. And I further agree with the pill count. I would also want to look at the pill bottle for the fill date as well. (age of the rx)

:moo:


medically speaking I am still a fence sitter until I can see all the reports.

As for the stalker, I 100% believe that much.:moo:

I suppose I should say, rather, that I have no reason not to value the opinion of the first coroner over the second, since I have not read the autopsy report.

As to the flexeril, I wouldn't assume that the daughter or mother or any household member would have had to have a prescription for Morgan to have been able to use the drug to either sleep or commit suicide.

Flexeril is more commonly used as a sleep aid than as a date rape drug. People share pills all the time: "Oh, I've had this pain forever in my shoulder. It's really hurting today." "Here, try one of my Vicodins. That should help you." I can easily see this girl complaining of sleeplessness and being given some medication from someone to help with that, who is now horrified and will never reveal the truth. Or, perhaps she had a secret doctor no one knew about who actually prescribed it and who now has no clue the prescription is at issue.

As far as the pills not being present in the stomach, couldn't she have ground them up before ingesting with liquid?

Finally, we have heard so many famous cases in recent years of people dying as a result of a combination of drugs or overdose who seem to have been simply trying to sleep (Michael Jackson, Heath Ledger, Anna Nicole Smith).

Isn't it possible that the same could happen to a very young, highly frightened girl, who has been plagued for months and who may feel reluctant to bother her parents with more problems and instead, try to resolve those issues herself?

 

[MayraMM]

Nursie, I have a question. I don't understand why we can't sleuth the family. THEY chose to go public, made a blog, and invited comments. Shouldn't they be just as fair game as the Alphabets triplets down the road, who haven't had any say at all?

I mean no disrespect to the family, but there are several points that are glaring at us and we can't discuss them out of fear of offending the family. I think if we were allowed to hash out those issues, perhaps even with their input, we can either lay some of those issues to rest, or find valid points.

I think there can be a happy medium, one where we can bring up issues, inconsistencies and even speculation, as long as it's done respectfully. After all, that whole family will have to deal with worse if this does turn in to a full blown investigation, especially since they've accused LE of incompetence.

 

[concernedmother]

http://www.postindependent.com/article/20120901/VALLEYNEWS/120839978

Several different people were viewed as suspects, she said.

&#8220;At this time we don't have enough evidence to go through with arrests for any of those people,&#8221; she added.
And that is lacking in this case. No evidence.

 

[MayraMM]

I suppose I should say, rather, that I have no reason not to value the opinion of the first coroner over the second, since I have not read the autopsy report.

As to the flexeril, I wouldn't assume that the daughter or mother or any household member would have had to have a prescription for Morgan to have been able to use the drug to either sleep or commit suicide.

Flexeril is more commonly used as a sleep aid than as a date rape drug. People share pills all the time: "Oh, I've had this pain forever in my shoulder. It's really hurting today." "Here, try one of my Vicodins. That should help you." I can easily see this girl complaining of sleeplessness and being given some medication from someone to help with that, who is now horrified and will never reveal the truth. Or, perhaps she had a secret doctor no one knew about who actually prescribed it and who now has no clue the prescription is at issue.

As far as the pills not being present in the stomach, couldn't she have ground them up before ingesting with liquid?

Finally, we have heard so many famous cases in recent years of people dying as a result of a combination of drugs or overdose who seem to have been simply trying to sleep (Michael Jackson, Heath Ledger, Anna Nicole Smith).

Isn't it possible that the same could happen to a very young, highly frightened girl, who has been plagued for months and who may feel reluctant to bother her parents with more problems and instead, try to resolve those issues herself?

This is what I've been saying all along. A friend gave her the cyclo, and maybe she picked up the amy at the stables, remembering she had taken it before, not realizing the dosing difference.

Also, you bring up a good point about another source of medication. She was a college student. Was there a health clinic? Has anyone checked to see if she had been seen there?

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Numerous bottles of amitriptyline with pills in Morgans bedroom-

“She wasn't taking amitriptyline, hadn't been for two years before she died,” Ingram said. There were still pill bottles in her daughter's bedroom that contained some old pills, she said.

http://www.postindependent.com/article/20120901/VALLEYNEWS/120839978/1083&ParentProfile=1074

 

[alwaysonmymind]

They came close to 50 times and couldnt see anyone. They did a stakeout down the street and never saw anything. When neighbors found out they watched and didnt see anything either. Not sure what more they could do. They just couldnt catch this guy. He outsmarted everyone.

This neighbor is not that smart. imo

 

[SmoothOperator]

ETA: I LOVE your avatar! So cute!

Hmm. Is it possible that the photo was of the neighbor leaving? Maybe he came back for a moment but decided to turn around when they left? Or maybe he was there the whole time? Maybe he never left and either hung around near the cars to see what happened or was actually standing around with the officers and the family until the officers left.



I don't know. I value Dr. Dobersen's opinion and I think his opinion regarding this case is huge. However, I value Dr. Kurtzman's as well and IMO, his makes more sense.

Flexeril may indeed be occasionally used as a date rape drug but it is more often used as a sleep aid.

And we still have the problem of how such drugs were administered to an unwilling victim with no signs of forced entry or assault.

But where I take issue is with Dr Kurtzman being adamant her dying of natural causes and citing porphyria as a diagnosis..that diagnosis completely incorrect and never was given Morgan along with the family as well as other physicians of morgans adamantly disageeing with Morgan having died of natural cuases..

It is that type "errors"(and imo thats the most polite way to put it) to begin with that makes me not hold Dr.Kurtzman in high esteem..add to that the family's asking for others opinions and stating they strongly believed that their daughter did not die of natural causes(and we all know the ruling was incorrect and that it was not natural causes) he was angry and uncooperative to put it in the nicest of terms(imo more accurately would be he acted in the highest of unethical and even illegal ways in actually threatening the Ingrams to back off with their disagreeing with the COD=natural causes or he'd change it alright..he'd change it to ruling it a suicide if they didnt back off)..

Which as we also know the Ingrams did not back off in the least and held firm that they didnt believe COD=natural causes and without so much as even their being notified that Kurtzman was going about revising their daughters autopsy..they learned with shock that Kurtzman absolutely followed thru with his threat and had now slapped the revised COD=suicide..

I understand fully that there are some who are highly suspicious of and some even do not believe what the Ingrams state..but in my humble opinion even if you take out believeing the Ingrams accounting of kurtzman maki g such deliberate threats and thereby making good on those threats...imo even when you remove that allegation from the facts you still have a highly questionable autopsy by a doctor who quite obviously got alot wrong and/or just didnt bother with various different standard testing and drew what was his logical conclusion of Morgans COD=natural causes..

Such egregious errors and negligence imo on the part of Dr. KURTZMAN truly has his words of very little value if one is looking for the true and accurate facts concerning what was his job to do on the deceased..

All jmo,tho..