Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

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OMG!! This group should be . The only thing that would stop any decomp now is embalming, even that only lasts so long. My heart goes out to this mother. She doesnt see money, she sees her daughter lying there. I wish someone anyone ccould tell her what is true, try to lift her burden. It is not easy to say your child is dying~dead..I've said it twice. It has been years and I am STILL not over it. I was able to accept truth and I am now broken..God be with her. Nore
 
Bringing this over from the last thread

"Originally Posted by katydid23
I have since discovered that she underwent a high-risk surgery in which death and permanent neurologic injury occurred in 86 out of 111 cases (77%) reported in a recent study. See: Cote CJ, Posner KL, Domino KB. Death or Neurologic Injury After Tonsillectomy in Children with a Focus on Obstructive Sleep Apnea: Houston, We Have a Problem! (Anesth Analg 2013 Jul 10). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23842193

The authors recommend respiratory monitoring throughout first and second stage recovery.

http://frederickleatherman.com/2014/...f-jahi-mcmath/"

_______________________________________________

I believe you are incorrectly thinking that 86 out of 111 cases or 77% is the rate in which patients suffer neurolociical damage or die as a direct result of this surgery. That isn't the case. The 111 cases were studied for causation breakdown.

I could be wrong...but I don't think so.

More information on the study
http://aa2day.org/2013/12/tonsillectomy/
 
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OMG!! This group should be . The only thing that would stop any decomp now is embalming, even that only lasts so long. My heart goes out to this mother. She doesnt see money, she sees her daughter lying there. I wish someone anyone ccould tell her what is true, try to lift her burden. It is not easy to say your child is dying~dead..I've said it twice. It has been years and I am STILL not over it. I was able to accept truth and I am now broken..God be with her. Nore

I really believe that the mom started this over grief and guilt. It's continuing because of the greedy uncle and a lawyer with his own agenda. So sad.
 
When I was 15 (many moons ago) I had major spinal surgery. After recovery, I was moved to a private room. I was awake, chatting nonsense and absolutely starving. I had had no food in two days at that time and although I couldn't walk and my back was stitched from neck to bottom all I could think of was food. I felt NO pain. Actually, I was high as a kite. It was another 2 days before I was allowed to actually eat, of course, but that didn't stop me from wanting to crawl into the hall and hijack a food cart.

I noticed on one of CNN's articles http://0-edition.cnn.com.library.ccbcmd.edu/2014/01/08/health/jahi-mcmath-update/index.html
<modsnip>

My question is this, for those of you who may have experience with the type of surgery Jahi had... following such a surgery, hypothetically, would a patient still be "numb" enough in the throat area an hour or two later, (or medicated with pain meds) to be ABLE to eat small bites of a burger? I can believe she was hungry. I can believe she may have wanted to eat. But COULD she? Would she actually be able to swallow even small "chunks" of food?
 
When I was 15 (many moons ago) I had major spinal surgery. After recovery, I was moved to a private room. I was awake, chatting nonsense and absolutely starving. I had had no food in two days at that time and although I couldn't walk and my back was stitched from neck to bottom all I could think of was food. I felt NO pain. Actually, I was high as a kite. It was another 2 days before I was allowed to actually eat, of course, but that didn't stop me from wanting to crawl into the hall and hijack a food cart.

I noticed on one of CNN's articles http://0-edition.cnn.com.library.ccbcmd.edu/2014/01/08/health/jahi-mcmath-update/index.html
<modsnip>

My question is this, for those of you who may have experience with the type of surgery Jahi had... following such a surgery, hypothetically, would a patient still be "numb" enough in the throat area an hour or two later, (or medicated with pain meds) to be ABLE to eat small bites of a burger? I can believe she was hungry. I can believe she may have wanted to eat. But COULD she? Would she actually be able to swallow even small "chunks" of food?

I'm not sure about the specific surgery she had, but when my 5 year old had his tonsils out he could eat and eat well!

After surgery he was given ice cream and jelly. A few hours later he had tinned spaghetti and bread. After that he had a few hot chips that were covered in gravy (so pretty soggy). I can't remember what he had for dinner, but I know he ate it. He was also drinking lemon cordial and orange juice until bedtime.

He was fine for a few hours after surgery, then the pain meds wore off. Once he had more codeine he was eating again. He was allowed to drink from a straw and there was no suctioning, or any talk of suctioning. He had no visible bleeding, no spitting. He did drool a bit once he woke up and when I met him in recovery he was snuggled up to a face washer, which was rather adorable. He did do a spew but he and I react to codeine that way, plus a belly full of food will do that after being under.

BUT, that was only his tonsils and adenoids (and grommets). Other than having fluid in his ears and snoring, he was perfectly healthy.
 
<modsnip>

Yes, and thank you. That was my understanding. I was wondering if it was PHYSICALLY possible for her to swallow more solid food in the few hours following her surgery. In my head, I imagined that her throat would have been so terribly raw from all that she had done in surgery that swallowing water would have been torture, but then thinking back to my surgery, although a different surgery, I remembered being so numb and loopy that I felt no pain and wondered if the same might be possible after her type of surgery. :seeya:
 
Jahi is not decomposing, only her brain and brain stem are. As long as there is circulation, any parts that are receiving circulation are not decomposing. She is not a corpse. A corpse has no organ function and Jahi does have organ function. This doesn't mean there is a chance she will recover. I just cannot stand to read articles that speak of Jahi as a corpse. I find this distasteful, degrading and highly disrespectful.
 
<modsnip>

Doctor agrees:

"This deterioration became inevitable the moment she died," Flori wrote. "Additional and more dramatic signs of the body's deterioration will continue to manifest over time, regardless of any procedures and regardless of any heroic measures that any facility might attempt."

According to Slatkin, it is possible that the nutrients she is receiving are supporting her deteriorating organs, but he echoed comments from previous doctors who have said no medical tools or procedures can bring back someone who has been declared brain-dead.

"Dead is dead. There aren't grades of dead," Slatkin said. "Anything that (the attorney) or the family may perceive as improvement does not indicate that she is alive in any way.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...-medical-experts-say-organ-failure-inevitable
 
Jahi is not decomposing, only her brain and brain stem are. As long as there is circulation, any parts that are receiving circulation are not decomposing. She is not a corpse. A corpse has no organ function and Jahi does have organ function. This doesn't mean there is a chance she will recover. I just cannot stand to read articles that speak of Jahi as a corpse. I find this distasteful, degrading and highly disrespectful.


BBM

What about what Dr. Flori said in her report?

“She has not had evidence of bowel functioning (sounds) for weeks. Yesterday (January 2), she passed some stool that was clinically consistent with defecation of the tissues lining the bowel (i.e., her body is sloughing her gut).“

Is the "sloughing of the gut" not considered decomposing? Please explain.
 
POST OP UPPP DIET:

It is very important that you drink the equivalent of at least eight large glasses of water a day.
Avoid caffeinated products.
Avoid carbonated, very cold, and very hot beverages. Also avoid acidic foods (such as orange juice) and excessively salty foods.
A gradual advancement of diet from soft and bland to normal foods over seven to fourteen days is required.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Most patients experience some regurgitation of liquids (particularly thin liquids) into the nose immediately after surgery. As the swelling regresses and you learn to compensate, this will clear over a period of several weeks. However, some patients do describe a permanent problem with water regurgitating into their noses when they bend over at a water fountain.

http://www.entacc.com/surgery/oral-surgery/uppp/
 
I am not a medical person. I have no courage for what they do. A million years ago when I was 16 yrs old, my grandpa had a massive stroke and was taken to the hospital. We had hopes of recovery. After 3-4 days, the hospital pronounced him brain dead. The family had a conference and told me they would be taking him off of support. I turned into a ball of rage, & disbelief that they could be so cavalier about MY grandpa! I needed to be C.O.N.V.I.N.C.E.D. that this was in fact, the truth of the matter. I was a child - it wasn't my call, but they let me blast out my feelings. My loving and older and more-hurt-than-I family members came to me and with sadness and empathy convinced me that there was no hope for him. I was ignorant of medical science in those years. My loving family talked me out of my fantasy that it would turn out positive. I just never could accept it if it wasn't for their wisdom and kindness in explaining.
Flash forward - I lost my beloved grandma (in her sleep, so they told me, while I was at a hotel catching up on sleep). Then my estranged father (they called me about the funeral, and I missed the funeral because I got lost in Denver Airport and missed the flight).
THEN my mom fell broke her arm and was admitted to the hospital and needed x-rays. She was diagnosed with cancer (from the mri's, etc), and was dead in 6 days (from the cancer). That TIME I SAW AND FELT her leave her "shell" in person. I was in the room with her and had just talked to her 10 minutes before I went to sleep in a recliner next to her bed. It is all terrible. It is all a shock. I never talk about any of this stuff to anyone. I just want to say ws is kind, honest, thoughtful, and caring - and again HONEST about this topic. I can read here and not (really) trigger. You are all so full of wisdom and smart in your different fields. Thank you, each and every one of you......I cant believe it took me so long to get to the truths of these deaths in my life.
 
I am not a medical person. I have no courage for what they do. A million years ago when I was 16 yrs old, my grandpa had a massive stroke and was taken to the hospital. We had hopes of recovery. After 3-4 days, the hospital pronounced him brain dead. The family had a conference and told me they would be taking him off of support. I turned into a ball of rage, & disbelief that they could be so cavalier about MY grandpa! I needed to be C.O.N.V.I.N.C.E.D. that this was in fact, the truth of the matter. I was a child - it wasn't my call, but they let me blast out my feelings. My loving and older and more-hurt-than-I family members came to me and with sadness and empathy convinced me that there was no hope for him. I was ignorant of medical science in those years. My loving family talked me out of my fantasy that it would turn out positive. I just never could accept it if it wasn't for their wisdom and kindness in explaining.
Flash forward - I lost my beloved grandma (in her sleep, so they told me, while I was at a hotel catching up on sleep). Then my estranged father (they called me about the funeral, and I missed the funeral because I got lost in Denver Airport and missed the flight).
THEN my mom fell broke her arm and was admitted to the hospital and needed x-rays. She was diagnosed with cancer (from the mri's, etc), and was dead in 6 days (from the cancer). That TIME I SAW AND FELT her leave her "shell" in person. I was in the room with her and had just talked to her 10 minutes before I went to sleep in a recliner next to her bed. It is all terrible. It is all a shock. I never talk about any of this stuff to anyone. I just want to say ws is kind, honest, thoughtful, and caring - and again HONEST about this topic. I can read here and not (really) trigger. You are all so full of wisdom and smart in your different fields. Thank you, each and every one of you......I cant believe it took me so long to get to the truths of these deaths in my life.
:hug:
 
Yes, and thank you. That was my understanding. I was wondering if it was PHYSICALLY possible for her to swallow more solid food in the few hours following her surgery. In my head, I imagined that her throat would have been so terribly raw from all that she had done in surgery that swallowing water would have been torture, but then thinking back to my surgery, although a different surgery, I remembered being so numb and loopy that I felt no pain and wondered if the same might be possible after her type of surgery. :seeya:

Oh, OK, I mis-understood what you wanted to know. :)
Ambien is kicking in.. as two other people said last night. Now's it my turn LOL.

When reviewing ALL the surgery that the child had just been through, I think it would be next to impossible for her to SWALLOW a bite of solid food without immediately having a strong pain response and regurgitating the food piece.

I cannot say with any degree of certainty that this did occur, though.

It is very possible that she was in the " Twilight Zone" for a while.. Kids are prone to this.. This still does not mean that she did or did not eat anything. We do not know exactly how she reacted from anesthesia or what happened or when. I wish we all had a definitive answer, but my best nurse-guess is that it would have been too painful to swallow, she would have gagged or spit it out.
 
BBM
(Quoted)
What about what Dr. Flori said in her report?

“She has not had evidence of bowel functioning (sounds) for weeks. Yesterday (January 2), she passed some stool that was clinically consistent with defecation of the tissues lining the bowel (i.e., her body is sloughing her gut).“

Is the "sloughing of the gut" not considered decomposing? Please explain.(Quote)
_-------------------_----
From me:
I certainly thought that is what it meant. :/


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
 
I am not a medical person. I have no courage for what they do. A million years ago when I was 16 yrs old, my grandpa had a massive stroke and was taken to the hospital. We had hopes of recovery. After 3-4 days, the hospital pronounced him brain dead. The family had a conference and told me they would be taking him off of support. I turned into a ball of rage, & disbelief that they could be so cavalier about MY grandpa! I needed to be C.O.N.V.I.N.C.E.D. that this was in fact, the truth of the matter. I was a child - it wasn't my call, but they let me blast out my feelings. My loving and older and more-hurt-than-I family members came to me and with sadness and empathy convinced me that there was no hope for him. I was ignorant of medical science in those years. My loving family talked me out of my fantasy that it would turn out positive. I just never could accept it if it wasn't for their wisdom and kindness in explaining.
Flash forward - I lost my beloved grandma (in her sleep, so they told me, while I was at a hotel catching up on sleep). Then my estranged father (they called me about the funeral, and I missed the funeral because I got lost in Denver Airport and missed the flight).
THEN my mom fell broke her arm and was admitted to the hospital and needed x-rays. She was diagnosed with cancer (from the mri's, etc), and was dead in 6 days (from the cancer). That TIME I SAW AND FELT her leave her "shell" in person. I was in the room with her and had just talked to her 10 minutes before I went to sleep in a recliner next to her bed. It is all terrible. It is all a shock. I never talk about any of this stuff to anyone. I just want to say ws is kind, honest, thoughtful, and caring - and again HONEST about this topic. I can read here and not (really) trigger. You are all so full of wisdom and smart in your different fields. Thank you, each and every one of you......I cant believe it took me so long to get to the truths of these deaths in my life.

Zoomom, hugs. :nurse: I am so sorry for your personal losses and grief.
 
I have a problem with the way the hospital handled this. To tell a mother, that the child they said would lead a better life after this surgery, that bled to death in their ICU, on their watch, that she's now dead dead dead could ....should have been handled better and privately.

The "spokesman" they hired was also a huge mistake.


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Sorry. Given my schedule lately and the speed with which this thread is moving, I'm way, way late in responding to this post. And, I haven't had time to get caught up with the new posts so, something similar may have already been posted.

At first glance, I get the emotion behind the original post, and the genuine sympathy it displays for a mother in pain as she mourns her young daughter. If I follow the story in the sentence on its face, it speaks of multiple betrayals and anger with a vague entity being held responsible for the death of the child. That said, although the overwhelming pain that NW is suffering is only too real, there are a number of assumptions upon which the sentence is based that, IMO, when examined a little, are not necessarily supported by what we know so far about the events that led to Jahi's tragic death.

First. IMO, we don't actually know how the hospital handled the McMath case because the family has prevented the hospital from releasing the details which would complete the picture, and because the people who work in CHO have adhered to HIPPA. Most of the details that we do have, I believe, have largely been made public by the family, the family's lawyer, and the family's spokesman (Omari Sealey) in interviews and press conferences. IIRC, details from a CHO staff perspective have filtered through to us via court documents prepared by CHO legal advisors, public letters of condolence to the family, and limited public responses in press conferences.

Re: the 'spokesman'. I'm not sure to which of the men and women who make public statements on behalf of CHO you refer. It could be that in an effort to remain neutral in a very inflammatory situation, a choice was made to use clinical language or a dispassionate tone which may have seemed cold rather than compassionate. I'm not sure if it was the content of the message or the style of delivery which you found unsatisfactory--or both. Sometimes a person used to deliver statements on behalf of one section of an organization may be fine, but he or she may not be successful when delivering statements on behalf of a different section or about a different subject. Given that the negative reaction in the post may be representative of many people in the public sector, my guess is that the role of CHO representative will be reassigned.

When "the hospital" or "they" are used to refer to CHO, they tend to become a blanket terms which include every nurse, doctor, technician, security guard, accountant, physiotherapist, counsellor, pastor, aide, receptionist, social worker, housekeeper, cook, fundraiser, lawyer, entertainer, resident, student nurse, board member, candy-striper and gift shop volunteer who works at CHO.

It may be easy to just use the term "the hospital" since NW has done so, but it is too broad a reference, IMO. Further, as has been so eloquently discussed up thread, it is an inaccurate term. Its indiscriminate use by MSM has done a lot of damage to the reputations of the people who work at CHO. After NW's interviews, the slur on the people who work at CHO is no longer implied. In her ktvu unedited interview NW said "everybody in here is gonna cover up because they all work together. This is their hospital, so I know they're gonna try to cover up something in there 'cause something definitely happened wrong to my child in there." In her anger and pain, it seems that for NW "the hospital" has become a term to evoke a heartless institution staffed by dishonest, uncaring people who cannot be trusted to speak the truth. It saddens me that OS, the lawyer, and many people in MSM have followed suit.

Who is the "they" who said the child would have a better life after this complex surgery? IIRC, the mother said this in an interview as an explanation of why her daughter was undergoing the procedure. (http://blog.al.com/wire/2013/12/california_girl_declared_brain.html) If it was not the mother's own choice of words, did someone make this an unqualified promise to the mother before Jahi was scheduled for the surgery? Who said it? Was it the family g.p.? If someone from CHO made this statement to NW, who was it? A surgeon? A resident? A paediatric consultant?

From all accounts, Jahi was a lovely child who was suffering from medical issues that interfered with her ability to sleep, to study, to focus, and to control her urination. For a girl described by her mom as shy, this must have been very difficult to deal with. IMO, NW deeply loved Jahi, and would have only wanted to make her daughter's life a better one. However, I don't believe that anyone from the hospital promised Jahi would have a better quality of life following the surgery in order to lure NW into making the decision for Jahi to have the operation. OS has said that Jahi had undergone two previous attempts to solve her apnea and other problems, which does underscore that Jahi's health was of concern to her family and that NW had been searching for a medical solution to the problems Jahi was encountering.

Re "&#8230;in their ICU, on their watch&#8230;" As has been discussed in the previous threads, all surgery has risks and every guardian of minor children who are patients, receive warnings about the possibility that complications could arise. According to many posts upthread and in previous threads, they also receive specific instructions regarding the behaviour of family members in the PICU. How many family members are allowed to be with a child in PICU at the same time? What is the decorum to be observed? When is it appropriate for family members to give food to PICU patients? Where can that food be obtained? Is is acceptable for family members to render treatment to the young patient or is treatment limited to the medical staff of CHO? What is the ratio of nurses to patients in the PICU? Is there a doctor on hand?

What happened between the time Jahi woke up following her surgery and the time it was determined that she had suffered brain death is unclear to me. The timing and sequence of events, even the length of time it took for things to unfold has varied in different accounts. In order to know the times of events, and the actual nature of the events, the public will need information from CHO staff which is currently unavailable due to the family's insistence and HIPPA. According to Jahi's uncle, Jahi woke up and was able to ask for and receive a popsicle--I haven't read where the popsicle came from. As well, OS has said that, Jahi, her mother, grandmother and stepfather at various times suctioned the blood from Jahi's mouth and throat. At some point NW lost consciousness and was herself admitted as a patient at CHO. OS has also said that the nurses performed transfusions in an effort to help Jahi, and that a doctor (not her surgeon) was present. We need much more information before we can condemn the actions and efforts of the medical staff out of hand. Yes, something happened "on their watch". In fact, with NW fainting, and other family members trying to help, it sounds like quite a lot was happening. It will be very interesting to read the time line that emerges when the nurses' notes are eventual made public.

There is another statement from which the family lawyer, NW and OS are getting a lot of mileage: "dead, dead, dead". IIRC, OS and NW have attributed it to Dr. Durand, Chief of Pediatrics at CHO. (I'll go back over the different articles and see if I can find the specific reference.) It seems out of character for someone who allowed so many accommodations to be made for NW's family by the staff in his section. However, even if it is true, that does not excuse the media and others from branding the entire CHO staff as callous and indifferent to Jahi's tragedy because one person said this phrase. The entire staff of CHO did not say this to NW. Certainly the nurses and aides and therapists and techs who have cared for Jahi's remains so well that an illusion of life was preserved did not ever say this to her. This phrase has further blackened the reputation of the men and women who have done their job and not defended themselves from the tactics of the family's lawyer or the attacks by media or members of the public. Continuing to malign the staff of CHO is unconscionable, IMO. But the phrase has legs. I just googled "dead dead dead Jahi" and got 92, 300, 000 results.

I don't recall seeing a confirmation of who broke the news of Jahi's death to NW and in what way that news was broken. We don't know how many kindly nurses, soft spoken social workers, reassuring pastors, older doctors, or sympathetic volunteers may have spoken with her. We don't know if someone just laid out the technical terms of what was happening to Jahi's body. We do not know who referred to Jahi's body as the body or the corpse, or in what context that was said. However it was said, IMO someone as fragile as NW may well have felt that "they talk about my child with no compassion. And I'm like, this is Childrens' Hospital. You should have the utmost compassion for me, especially in ICU." (ktvu interview) However, I wonder whether the language to which NW so strongly objected was being said not in the hospital by the nurses, aides, therapists and technicians who gave physical care to Jahi's body but rather by doctors trying to explain to NW and the family just what brain death was, and by CHO lawyers who were explaining Jahi's physical state to a court of law in clinical terms. IMO, NW's use of the word "they" is being interpreted too loosely, and too many people are being wrongly accused of not caring about Jahi and her family.

There's a reason that we don't yet know the a lot of the information we want to know about the treatments received by Jahi and the discussions held with NW. It is because, IMO, the meetings and conversations were, in fact, held privately and the information protected by HIPPA and the family's demand is still being kept private by staff of CHO.
 
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...Jahi-McMath-Case-Death-Threats-239538201.html

Dolan said he is offended when people believe he misled the McMath family and gave them false hope.

He wrote several petitions and has made numerous public statements declaring that their deceased daughter is alive and could recover. 'Nuff said.
It's the dictionary definition of false hope imo.


"That means that this family is dumb," he said. "I resent that they would be hoodwinked by some lawyer manipulating them. These are smart people."

It doesn't matter how smart you are if you've experienced a terrible loss. Intelligent people can grasp at straws in denial just as much as dumb ones.

Although I believe that at least the mother had these false hopes before the lawyer ever heard of the case, the uncle's statements imo changed after CD came into the picture. Before they engaged the lawyer he said that he had accepted that Jahi was 100% brain damaged and medically deceased.
 
Sorry. Given my schedule lately and the speed with which this thread is moving, I'm way, way late in responding to this post. And, I haven't had time to get caught up with the new posts so, something similar may have already been posted.

At first glance, I get the emotion behind the original post, and the genuine sympathy it displays for a mother in pain as she mourns her young daughter. If I follow the story in the sentence on its face, it speaks of multiple betrayals and anger with a vague entity being held responsible for the death of the child. That said, although the overwhelming pain that NW is suffering is only too real, there are a number of assumptions upon which the sentence is based that, IMO, when examined a little, are not necessarily supported by what we know so far about the events that led to Jahi's tragic death.

First. IMO, we don't actually know how the hospital handled the McMath case because the family has prevented the hospital from releasing the details which would complete the picture, and because the people who work in CHO have adhered to HIPPA. Most of the details that we do have, I believe, have largely been made public by the family, the family's lawyer, and the family's spokesman (Omari Sealey) in interviews and press conferences. IIRC, details from a CHO staff perspective have filtered through to us via court documents prepared by CHO legal advisors, public letters of condolence to the family, and limited public responses in press conferences.

Re: the 'spokesman'. I'm not sure to which of the men and women who make public statements on behalf of CHO you refer. It could be that in an effort to remain neutral in a very inflammatory situation, a choice was made to use clinical language or a dispassionate tone which may have seemed cold rather than compassionate. I'm not sure if it was the content of the message or the style of delivery which you found unsatisfactory--or both. Sometimes a person used to deliver statements on behalf of one section of an organization may be fine, but he or she may not be successful when delivering statements on behalf of a different section or about a different subject. Given that the negative reaction in the post may be representative of many people in the public sector, my guess is that the role of CHO representative will be reassigned.

When "the hospital" or "they" are used to refer to CHO, they tend to become a blanket terms which include every nurse, doctor, technician, security guard, accountant, physiotherapist, counsellor, pastor, aide, receptionist, social worker, housekeeper, cook, fundraiser, lawyer, entertainer, resident, student nurse, board member, candy-striper and gift shop volunteer who works at CHO.

It may be easy to just use the term "the hospital" since NW has done so, but it is too broad a reference, IMO. Further, as has been so eloquently discussed up thread, it is an inaccurate term. Its indiscriminate use by MSM has done a lot of damage to the reputations of the people who work at CHO. After NW's interviews, the slur on the people who work at CHO is no longer implied. In her ktvu unedited interview NW said "everybody in here is gonna cover up because they all work together. This is their hospital, so I know they're gonna try to cover up something in there 'cause something definitely happened wrong to my child in there." In her anger and pain, it seems that for NW "the hospital" has become a term to evoke a heartless institution staffed by dishonest, uncaring people who cannot be trusted to speak the truth. It saddens me that OS, the lawyer, and many people in MSM have followed suit.

Who is the "they" who said the child would have a better life after this complex surgery? IIRC, the mother said this in an interview as an explanation of why her daughter was undergoing the procedure. (http://blog.al.com/wire/2013/12/california_girl_declared_brain.html) If it was not the mother's own choice of words, did someone make this an unqualified promise to the mother before Jahi was scheduled for the surgery? Who said it? Was it the family g.p.? If someone from CHO made this statement to NW, who was it? A surgeon? A resident? A paediatric consultant?

From all accounts, Jahi was a lovely child who was suffering from medical issues that interfered with her ability to sleep, to study, to focus, and to control her urination. For a girl described by her mom as shy, this must have been very difficult to deal with. IMO, NW deeply loved Jahi, and would have only wanted to make her daughter's life a better one. However, I don't believe that anyone from the hospital promised Jahi would have a better quality of life following the surgery in order to lure NW into making the decision for Jahi to have the operation. OS has said that Jahi had undergone two previous attempts to solve her apnea and other problems, which does underscore that Jahi's health was of concern to her family and that NW had been searching for a medical solution to the problems Jahi was encountering.

Re "…in their ICU, on their watch…" As has been discussed in the previous threads, all surgery has risks and every guardian of minor children who are patients, receive warnings about the possibility that complications could arise. According to many posts upthread and in previous threads, they also receive specific instructions regarding the behaviour of family members in the PICU. How many family members are allowed to be with a child in PICU at the same time? What is the decorum to be observed? When is it appropriate for family members to give food to PICU patients? Where can that food be obtained? Is is acceptable for family members to render treatment to the young patient or is treatment limited to the medical staff of CHO? What is the ratio of nurses to patients in the PICU? Is there a doctor on hand?

What happened between the time Jahi woke up following her surgery and the time it was determined that she had suffered brain death is unclear to me. The timing and sequence of events, even the length of time it took for things to unfold has varied in different accounts. In order to know the times of events, and the actual nature of the events, the public will need information from CHO staff which is currently unavailable due to the family's insistence and HIPPA. According to Jahi's uncle, Jahi woke up and was able to ask for and receive a popsicle--I haven't read where the popsicle came from. As well, OS has said that, Jahi, her mother, grandmother and stepfather at various times suctioned the blood from Jahi's mouth and throat. At some point NW lost consciousness and was herself admitted as a patient at CHO. OS has also said that the nurses performed transfusions in an effort to help Jahi, and that a doctor (not her surgeon) was present. We need much more information before we can condemn the actions and efforts of the medical staff out of hand. Yes, something happened "on their watch". In fact, with NW fainting, and other family members trying to help, it sounds like quite a lot was happening. It will be very interesting to read the time line that emerges when the nurses' notes are eventual made public.

There is another statement from which the family lawyer, NW and OS are getting a lot of mileage: "dead, dead, dead". IIRC, OS and NW have attributed it to Dr. Durand, Chief of Pediatrics at CHO. (I'll go back over the different articles and see if I can find the specific reference.) It seems out of character for someone who allowed so many accommodations to be made for NW's family by the staff in his section. However, even if it is true, that does not excuse the media and others from branding the entire CHO staff as callous and indifferent to Jahi's tragedy because one person said this phrase. The entire staff of CHO did not say this to NW. Certainly the nurses and aides and therapists and techs who have cared for Jahi's remains so well that an illusion of life was preserved did not ever say this to her. This phrase has further blackened the reputation of the men and women who have done their job and not defended themselves from the tactics of the family's lawyer or the attacks by media or members of the public. Continuing to malign the staff of CHO is unconscionable, IMO. But the phrase has legs. I just googled "dead dead dead Jahi" and got 92, 300, 000 results.

I don't recall seeing a confirmation of who broke the news of Jahi's death to NW and in what way that news was broken. We don't know how many kindly nurses, soft spoken social workers, reassuring pastors, older doctors, or sympathetic volunteers may have spoken with her. We don't know if someone just laid out the technical terms of what was happening to Jahi's body. We do not know who referred to Jahi's body as the body or the corpse, or in what context that was said. However it was said, IMO someone as fragile as NW may well have felt that "they talk about my child with no compassion. And I'm like, this is Childrens' Hospital. You should have the utmost compassion for me, especially in ICU." (ktvu interview) However, I wonder whether the language to which NW so strongly objected was being said not in the hospital by the nurses, aides, therapists and technicians who gave physical care to Jahi's body but rather by doctors trying to explain to NW and the family just what brain death was, and by CHO lawyers who were explaining Jahi's physical state to a court of law in clinical terms. IMO, NW's use of the word "they" is being interpreted too loosely, and too many people are being wrongly accused of not caring about Jahi and her family.

There's a reason that we don't yet know the a lot of the information we want to know about the treatments received by Jahi and the discussions held with NW. It is because, IMO, the meetings and conversations were, in fact, held privately and the information protected by HIPPA and the family's demand is still being kept private by staff of CHO.

Even if family had changed their mind and allowed the hospital to speak, it would be foolhardy for them to do so and any decent attorney would advise them not to. There is a malpractice suit *understandable imo* coming up and further lawsuits. They don't want to give all info to the family just yet and they also don't want to put their neck out if anything had gone haywire even if it didn't directly affect Jahi's death. That is for the courts and a jury, not the media. The family on the other hand has every right to speak.but they are also giving ammunition to the CHO
 
I am posting this in both threads.

Both Caplan and McCullough were critical of the unnamed medical facility that agreed to put Jahi's body on a ventilator. "What could they be thinking?" McCullough says. "Their thinking must be disordered, from a medical point of view. ... There is a word for this: crazy."

Caplan agrees: "You can't really feed a corpse."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ticize-treatment-brain-dead-patients/4394173/
 
How convenient that Dolan just happens to be on the board of a group fighting the 250k cap....considering that by his own account he contacted the family, I'm going to have to disagree with Uncle O that he did it completely out of the goodness of his heart. I understand we all look out for our own interests to some degree, but call a spade a spade? jmo

They were out in droves today (in front of CVS, Vons, Walgreens) alll wanting me to sigh the petition to raise the cap. They never mentioned Jahi, but the timing is suspect. And, no, I didn't sign it. When asked why, I said if hospitals end up paying millions of dollars on each case, guess who is going to pay for it? You and me via health insurance premiums. No matter how much liability insurance a doctor/hospital has, the trickle down effect could be disastrous.

MOO

Mel
 
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