Forensic linguistics as investigative tool on RN

Do you accept forensic linguists as defined below as a valid investigation tool

  • Im IDI forensic linguistics which does not agree with RDI is not science

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    6
I do think this question is worth asking Mysteri to ask McM. Any other questions?

None at the moment. It might do me well to watch that program again. (Luckily, I taped it.)

I wish she were here right now. I could use her help.

Yeah, so do I.

Mysteri if I recall addressed that -- if the R's felt Tom said something defamatory and if their attorneys advised them to file suit

You recall incorrectly, voynich. Miller was never sued by the Rs or anyone else that I know of. In fact, if they HAD sued him, it might have gone very badly for them. The feeling among the lawyers was that Miller was too dangerous to ever testify in court, so they cooked up a case against him that would sabotage his credibility if he were ever called as a witness. But the jury saw through it and had him home in time for lunch.

As for the wiki article:

1) I've read it, thanks.

2) As I've said before, my issue is not to defend him. I don't necessarily put any more stock in him than I do anyone else. Merely to point out how badly Hunter behaved.

3) Perhaps most importantly, I'm not sure who wrote that article (though I have my suspicions), but they seem to have trouble separating myth from fact. I COULD point out specifics, but this link can cover that ground for me:

http://jwarchive.tripod.com/03232001JW-FosteramaI.txt I strongly urge everyone, regardless of position, to have a look.
 
None at the moment. It might do me well to watch that program again. (Luckily, I taped it.)



Yeah, so do I.



You recall incorrectly, voynich. Miller was never sued by the Rs or anyone else that I know of. In fact, if they HAD sued him, it might have gone very badly for them. The feeling among the lawyers was that Miller was too dangerous to ever testify in court, so they cooked up a case against him that would sabotage his credibility if he were ever called as a witness. But the jury saw through it and had him home in time for lunch.

As for the wiki article:

1) I've read it, thanks.

2) As I've said before, my issue is not to defend him. I don't necessarily put any more stock in him than I do anyone else. Merely to point out how badly Hunter behaved.

3) Perhaps most importantly, I'm not sure who wrote that article (though I have my suspicions), but they seem to have trouble separating myth from fact. I COULD point out specifics, but this link can cover that ground for me:

http://jwarchive.tripod.com/03232001JW-FosteramaI.txt I strongly urge everyone, regardless of position, to have a look.

That would be a good idea since in 2001 McM has testified 270 cases, and by now ?? He could say that he doesn't recall the specifics. if you could re-watch it could you give us specifics of his testimony and what you think.


what would be even better would be to read McM's entire book and that other book Tadpole found, and then re-watch his testimony so you know where he's coming from, and even better would be to upload it on youtube so we could do the same. Without seeing that video I don't know what to say about your objection. Or as vader would say "move out of the asteroid field so you can send a clear transmission"
 
ah, voynich.
I love you more and more as each day passes.

Is you determination absolute.

You're our team expert on McM and forensic linguistics.
Rather than presenting McM conclusions as the absolute, could you consider any means by which a 400 word essay could be construsted that would not have many traces of the writer's natural patterns of speech?

How could you construct a 400 word essay that does not resemble your normal writing style?
Could you use another's written words, for the template from which to make alterations.
If you wrote mimicking the speech pattern of another would that suffice.
If you deconstructed and shuffled your sentences within the 400 words, could that be accomplished?
Could we take a 400 word sample from a well written essay and deconstruct that to the point where it is unrecognizable using McM?
Would a sample of free verse be distinguishable from someone's personal correspondace?

Small sample size is a consideration that applies to McM analysis.

If you recall, I did write a "what if L&L were to write an RN" where I swapped out sentences from JBRN w/L&L similar phrases.

I would construct an RN mostly by quoting from movies & L&L RN and other famous RN like Lindbergh and Barbara's.

The L&L and Barbara RN and Dirty Harry and Ransom would be a template.
 
That would be a good idea since in 2001 McM has testified 270 cases, and by now ?? He could say that he doesn't recall the specifics. if you could re-watch it could you give us specifics of his testimony and what you think.

Well, that would be the thing to do.

what would be even better would be to read McM's entire book and that other book Tadpole found, and then re-watch his testimony so you know where he's coming from, and even better would be to upload it on youtube so we could do the same. Without seeing that video I don't know what to say about your objection. Or as vader would say "move out of the asteroid field so you can send a clear transmission"

Yeah, as I pointed out, I had a very limited understanding as to what he did. Unfortunately, I can't upload it. Though, maybe someone could look for it. Just type in his name.
 
Well, that would be the thing to do.



Yeah, as I pointed out, I had a very limited understanding as to what he did. Unfortunately, I can't upload it. Though, maybe someone could look for it. Just type in his name.

That's cool. Watching it and reporting to us though might be best and yes, I did try looking for it w/o success. Surely he was cross-examined? How well did he stand up under cross examination?
 
Too bad we won't see how this investigative tool works in a courtroom,there is no intruder,there will be no charges.This case will stay cold.For good.

imo

Did you get a chance to read appendix a and b?

Appendix 1: Possible Questions and Responses for Direct and Cross Examination




A.1 Direct Examination of Linguist (Example)

A.1.1 Qualifications

What is your profession and how are you employed? Would you review your educational background?
Would you outline where and what you have taught during your academic career?
What is the scope of your forensic work?
How many and what types of cases have you testified in before? Do you have a record of publications in linguistics?
What professional organizations are you active in?

A.1.2 Language and Linguistics

What exactly is linguistics, and how is it related to language? In what ways is linguistics a science?
What are some subfields or branches of linguistics?

A.1.3 Forensic Linguistics and Stylistics

What is forensic linguistics and what kinds of problems do forensic linguists solve?
What is stylistics, and what is forensic stylistics? What is linguistic variation and why is it important?
How do linguists approach cases of questioned authorship?

A.1.4 This Case

What were you asked to do in this case?
What steps did you follow to analyze the writings in this case? What is your conclusion in this case?
Would you outline the general scope of your findings in this case?
Now, specifically, what formed the basis for your conclusion in this case? What is your opinion regarding the authorship of the questioned letter?

A.2 Cross Examination of Linguist (Example)

A.2.1 Education

What universities did you attend?
What undergraduate and undergraduate degrees do you hold? What were your areas of specialization (majors) for each degree? What subspecialties (minors) do you have?
What is your work history?
What is your present work activity?
What classes have you taught at your university? Have you taught any courses in linguistics?
Have you taught any courses in linguistic variation?
Such as sociolinguistics (variation related to social variables)? Such as geographical linguistics (variation related to region)? Such as historical linguistics (variation related to time)?
Such as stylistics (variation in written language)? What is your research and publication history?
What publications do you have on linguistic variation? What publications do you have on stylistics?
What is the focus of your present research?
To what professional organizations do you belong? What professional journals do you receive and read?
Any related to the analysis of style?
Any related to forensic applications of linguistics?

A.2.2 Experience

Have you done studies of literary authorship?
Have you done authorship studies in any forensic contexts? Have you ever testified as an expert linguist?
In what areas of linguistics?
Have you ever testified in the area of authorship identification?
When, where, who, and outcomes of these cases?

A.2.3 Areas of Expertise

What is your general area of expertise, e.g., linguistics?
Why do you work in an English (not linguistics) department? What is linguistics?
What does a linguist do?
What are the major subfields of linguistics? In your opinion, is linguistics a science?
What is the nature of scientific knowledge (both terms)?

A.2.4 Specialization
What are your areas of specialization in linguistics?
Does authorship identification require any particular expertise? Are you an expert in the particular field known as “stylistics”? What about in “forensic stylistics”?

A.2.5 Methodology
How would you generally define “style” in human behavior? How do you define style in language?
What is the field known as “stylistics”?
Is author elimination possible using stylistic analysis?
Is author identification possible using stylistic analysis? How are literary studies of authorship done?
How are forensic studies of authorship done?
What is your procedure for doing authorship cases? What are some examples of style-markers in writing?
How do you relate descriptive and quantitative observations? How do you identify class vs. individual features in writing? How do you exclude or identify a possible suspect author?

A.2.6 Analysis
Describe how you organize your work in an authorship study. Do you analyze questioned and known writings independently? Do you use a computer? In what ways?
In this case?
Describe your complete involvement in this case. Did you do your own study?
Please describe it and how you did it.
Have you read all the questioned and known writing in this case? How did you decide on the methodology of this case?
Do you have notes that you made during your analysis of the writings? How did you analyze the questioned and known documents?
What style-markers did you find in the questioned writings? What style-markers did you find in the known writings? How did you identify the markers of style in this case?
What was the outcome (conclusion) of your analysis in this case?
Have you formed an opinion regarding the questioned writings of this case? Have you written a report of your findings and conclusions?
On what basis do you relate your findings to your opinion? Did you study and evaluate the other expert’s work?
Do you have notes that you made for your study of the other expert’s report? Have you formed an opinion regarding the other expert’s analysis and opinion?


Appendix 2: Expert Testimony (Susan Morton)


Susan Morton, Criminalistics Laboratory,
San Francisco Police Department

Expert witnesses are perceived very differently from lay witnesses, both by the law and by the public. It gives you some rights and advantages but imparts added responsibilities. Juries will forgive fear, nervousness, and some confu- sion in a lay witness, but experts don’t impress much if they show those conditions. An expert needs to be knowledgeable, polished, and professional, but not slick or rehearsed.
The rights of the expert are these: 1. you may state an opinion and give the supporting data and reasons for it, 2. you may testify in narrative form rather than question and answer (though some judges won’t allow narrative),
3. you may demand to see and examine any published texts being used to cross-examine you, and 4. you may refuse to state your opinion until you have been compensated.
The following are “lessons learned” over the years that will allow the expert to make use of his or her rights and fulfill all responsibilities.

1. Know your mannerisms, e.g., if you fiddle with your hair, wear a headband, or fix hair in place some way. Make sure you are heard. A very soft voice can be perceived as indicative of a lack of confidence. And for sure if they can’t hear you, they can’t accept what you say. Watch videos of your moot courts to see if you have other habits that may distract a jury.
2. Attire, hair, make-up should be business-like and inconspicuous. Get noticed for your expertise, not your appearance. This is much harder for women than for men, as men can rely on the coat and tie to state their degree of seriousness. Women should study the attire of women execu- tives and politicians and pick one to emulate. Suits are perfect in Federal court, but a bit much for Superior Court. A blazer in a muted color (black, navy, or camel) can dress up an outfit without looking too stiff. Make sure that any accessories such as scarves or jewelry are well secured so that you do not have to fiddle with or adjust them. Think of any potential disaster, e.g., as you are being seated in the witness chair, your large pendant swings forward and collides with the microphone, creating a thunderous clang. And definitely wear “sensible shoes.” Sensible shoes bespeak serious intent and terrify attorneys.

3. Be wary of the incompetent or devious attorney, few in number as they may be. He or she will make you look like an idiot by asking idiotic questions and then blame you for looking like an idiot. Be prepared for this.
4. Be very careful not to change your body language when cross-exam- ination starts. I have seen witnesses fold their arms across their chests and look belligerent. Just keep in mind that you are an impartial witness. It also helps to remember the contents of number 3.
5. Listen very carefully to the question. Lawyers will often word a ques- tion so that it sounds like a familiar one, but has a very different implication. Or sometimes they get it mixed up and ask one thing when they really mean something else. Answer the question asked. If the question is tricky, you avoid a trap. If the question is mixed up, the lawyer looks foolish. This is equally true of both sides. If the question contains multiple questions, ask that they be separated. If the question is long and convoluted, ask that it be repeated. Even if you understand it, the jury may not. If the lawyer is blowing smoke, he won’t be able to repeat the question. If it gets read back by the reporter, it is exposed for the shenanigan that it is.
6. If you don’t know the answer to a question, say you don’t know. Juries expect you to know your subject, but they don’t expect you to be omniscient. Lawyers can dream up some pretty wild things to ask. Be up-front and don’t let yourself be made to look defensive about not knowing something. This is a mistake that many experts make. They think that they can’t admit that they don’t know everything so they spin moonshine. Juries pick right up on that. It makes the expert look pompous and can cast doubt on other points he or she may have made. If an answer is more than a few words, turn to the jury to deliver it. They are the target. Find one or two that seem interested and make eye contact. It is very hard to learn to do this, as it is natural to get into an exchange with the person asking the questions. It feels very awkward at first, but the juries love it and cross-examining lawyers hate it.
7. Don’t answer too quickly. It is okay to pause and look thoughtful. This also allows time for an objection. It looks better if you are not cut off by one.
8. It sometimes happens that you will have a legal question during tes- timony. It may be that you suspect that the answer to a question will bring out inadmissible information or something similar. Lawyers for the other side may be distracted at that moment. Technically it isn’t your fault if you answer and cause a mistrial, but everyone will blame you, especially the lawyers. What to do? Consult your designated legal representative — the judge. The judge is any witness’s designated legal
 
That's cool. Watching it and reporting to us though might be best and yes, I did try looking for it w/o success. Surely he was cross-examined? How well did he stand up under cross examination?

Not sure if that was mentioned. But I'll have something for you by the weekend.
 
Not sure if that was mentioned. But I'll have something for you by the weekend.

Everything is going as planned. Good (laff). Read him. Read him now. Do it. You have done well, Super. He was too dangerous to be left unread. It's only natural. He cut off your RDI Spin Theories and you wanted revenge. It's not the first time. Remember what you told me about Sue Bonnet? BTW, have you read McM's in its entirety? His testimony, arguments, evidence, and reasoning might be more understandable. Tadpole listed another forensic linguistic book

http://books.google.ca/books?id=i33...esult&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Forensic linguistics: an introduction to language, crime, and the law
By John Olsson

page 20-21

many courts accepted his methodology on the grounds

"technique is widespread and reliable"
"subject to peer review"
"general acceptance to relevant scientific community (linguistics)"

BTW His book does covers most of the questions asked above.
 
Actually his book that I have found is 90.00 dollars...And tell me why should I buy his book to help him just by chance he could get sued by someone...And really what good would it do cause if he went against the R's and was credible like you think would he have enough pull to win like Tom Miller....
 
Everything is going as planned. Good (laff). Read him. Read him now. Do it. You have done well, Super. He was too dangerous to be left unread. It's only natural. He cut off your RDI Spin Theories and you wanted revenge. It's not the first time. Remember what you told me about Sue Bonnet? BTW, have you read McM's in its entirety? His testimony, arguments, evidence, and reasoning might be more understandable. Tadpole listed another forensic linguistic book

http://books.google.ca/books?id=i33...esult&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Forensic linguistics: an introduction to language, crime, and the law
By John Olsson

page 20-21

many courts accepted his methodology on the grounds

"technique is widespread and reliable"
"subject to peer review"
"general acceptance to relevant scientific community (linguistics)"

BTW His book does covers most of the questions asked above.

:clap:
 
If you recall, I did write a "what if L&L were to write an RN" where I swapped out sentences from JBRN w/L&L similar phrases.

I would construct an RN mostly by quoting from movies & L&L RN and other famous RN like Lindbergh and Barbara's.

The L&L and Barbara RN and Dirty Harry and Ransom would be a template.



Actually the experts are going on handwritting styles not typing and samples from previous letters from PR and actually other people close to this case...
 
No handwriting expert on this planet will be able to state 100% that it was or wasn't written by X or by Y.
You just can't exclude PR as the rn note writer.Okay,you can't state 100% that it was her either, I agree.

But not being able to exclude her as the writer is just ANOTHER piece of evidence that points towards RDI,sorry........

Even IF you would be able to prove that she didn't write it,this alone means nothing,not until you have a JMK whose dna is a match and whose handwriting is a match as well.(GOOD LUCK WITH THAT !)Still,his lawyer will argue that you can't EXCLUDE PR as the writer.
 
Ravyn, remember that little talk we had a few weeks ago? You put it better than I did!

"One against others that says she did." How many have we got, anyway. 10? 12? I know it's somewhere in that neighborhood.


And with that number you can't ingore PR could be the author of the RN...It's not even half and half on the experts....
 
No handwriting expert on this planet will be able to state 100% that it was or wasn't written by X or by Y.
You just can't exclude PR as the rn note writer.Okay,you can't state 100% that it was her either, I agree.

But not being able to exclude her as the writer is just ANOTHER piece of evidence that points towards RDI,sorry........

Even IF you would be able to prove that she didn't write it,this alone means nothing,not until you have a JMK whose dna is a match and whose handwriting is a match as well.(GOOD LUCK WITH THAT !)Still,his lawyer will argue that you can't EXCLUDE PR as the writer.


Exactly,now we have someone always there in back of everyone's minds, a guy name JMK the one that admitted to killing JonBenet..He knew is DNA wouldn't match why,not say yeah I did...Above all wasn't it said he was going to write a book on the JonBenet case so if so wouldn't this means before hand he knew of the case....
 
Exactly,now we have someone always there in back of everyone's minds, a guy name JMK the one that admitted to killing JonBenet..He knew is DNA wouldn't match why,not say yeah I did...Above all wasn't it said he was going to write a book on the JonBenet case so if so wouldn't this means before hand he knew of the case....

To be honest,imo JMK was just a sick idiot who was fooled and baited by M.Tracey .
 
People won't just forget how the likes of Tracey and Lacy used JMK.Not only disgusting and disrespectful to the real victim here but also plain stupid.

moo
 
Just a twisted perv wanting some attention and Tracey,Lacy and co made sure he got it. :rolleyes: imo KNOWING from the start he didn't do it.
 
True oh so true.....But disrespecting the true victim they did...Justice above all needs to be given to JonBenet not her family in clearing them with no true suspect...And I wonder in everyone actions in this case how can they look at themselves in the mirror....
 
For the sake of argument,let's say that the R are innocent.Isn't it a shame/disgrace and injustice that the victims mother died thinking/hoping that the one who did it was caught?I wonder how JR feels about all this?Aww,but does he care,he stated that he doesn't think much of her, only when a good memory comes back or something to that effect.
I wouldn't be able to sleep if I were the husband,knowing that she died believing in something F A L S E.And what a big sick farse the JMK fiasco was.....yaiks!

yeah,there ya go:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...y-exonerated-in-the-murder-of-his-daughter/3/

"Do you still feel married to Patsy?" I ask, "Do you think about her a lot?"

"No, no," he says, his face relaxed but his eyes miserable. "Just occasionally, when a pleasant memory comes back."
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
182
Guests online
4,418
Total visitors
4,600

Forum statistics

Threads
592,596
Messages
17,971,579
Members
228,838
Latest member
MiaEvans52
Back
Top